249 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

3rdworld, on 28 November 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

And the fact that a pilot staying in complete cover from a target and does the same amount of damage as you do, does not gripe you at all?

Not really. In every game i get hit by maybe a couple of LRM salvo's, but always see hundreds of missiles hitting the ground where i was a few seconds ago. Most LRM's fired are just wasted ammo.
The only place where LRM's do well imo is caustic, but even there most salvos hit the crater...at least early on in the match.

Also, most of the players who hide behind cover are newbies who haven't realised yet that hiding in the same spot means being away from their teammates, which means they usually get chewed up by a light mech....unless they have streaks.

[Nightcrept]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

In my opinion LOWS ought to be the WORST POSSIBLE WEAPONS, with the only reason to use them being that you are too poor of a player to effectively use any other weapon, and as you improve you move on to actual skill based weapons and the LOWS remain a crutch for new players just getting started.

No No and no.

First your conclusions are flawed.

Second your desired game would be absolutely one dimensional and no fun. This is supposed to be a mech combat simulation game not sword fighting mechs gone wild.

[Captain Midnight]

Asmosis, on 28 November 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

^^ dont forget clan LRMs are streak missiles. thats a streak lrm 20 hitting you from 1m - 1000m. the tears that will fall.

Its easy to get a lock with lrms. its HARD to hit a mech 500m+ away, that takes skill unless the pilot is stupid. Skill is more than twitch response, which is what the OP seems to think skill is. Skill is as much about knowing WHEN to fire and WHERE to fire from as it is to click fire.

When and where is learned experience, not skill. Like I said I could teach my nephew when and where to fire in 15 minutes (there is only 4 maps after all). Hell, if I was at his shoulder telling him what to do I could get him to perform within 10% of my own LRM abilities (because it isn't based on skill). If I tried to "tell" him how to shoot a Gauss rifle and lead a target he'd get owned until he practiced and got good. See what I'm trying to say?

And besides, hitting a target at 500 meters with LRMs is more about the enemies lack of skill than your own skill. You get a lock and you fire, after that there is NO SKILL INVOLVED, the only skill was pressing left trigger or whatever button you use. Experience told you when the shot would likely be a good shot, but the only skill involved was the enemies evasive maneuvers. And yes, if he just camps in his spawn behind cover he won't take a lot of LRM fire but is that the game we want? Where the best move is not to move at all and just camp on spawn with 8 atlas Ks inside the capture square/behind a hill??

Nightcrept, on 28 November 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

No No and no.

First your conclusions are flawed.

Second your desired game would be absolutely one dimensional and no fun. This is supposed to be a mech combat simulation game not sword fighting mechs gone wild.

One dimensional sword fighting? SSRM A1s you say? LRM boats spamming anyone who takes one step in any direction you say? I don't think you've played very many games no offense intended. What's no fun is standing still holding down left trigger and racking up 900 damage because the other team wanted to have fun and move around and try to brawl. Brawling is fun, takes skill, the better shot wins. Sniping is fun, takes skill, and the better shot wins.

LRMs take no skill and doesn't even need LOS to outdamage actual legitimate direct fire hard to land weapons. SSRMs are the brawl equivalent.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Chrithu]

I agree with the OP.

But this poll can only result in the majority of the voters voting to keep SSRM and LRM as is or even improve them. Why? Because all the High Pingers will vote so because LRM and SSRM are the only weapons that enable them to do damage at all. Doesn't matter that those weapons break balance for everyone else and their problem simply is caused by letting them access the game when there are no servers in their region yet.

Also those that excessively use those weapons (aka Boaters) would never ever vote to get their boats nerfed no matter how reasonable the arguments for a nerf are.

If I'd put it harshly I'd say that at least the SSRM is a legit ingame hack.

[Wolfways]

I just want to say this.

As a long time player of the Battlefield series i've seen countless posts like the OP about "Nerf snipers" and "Snipers are OP" just because players didn't like being killed by someone they couldn't immediately shoot back at, to the point that in BF3 snipers have had their only defense (claymores) removed and whenever they use their scope it shines like a torch across the battlefield, making them easy targets.
Snipers are practically useless now.

I don't want to see the same thing happen to any weapon in MWO.

[Wolfways]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

And besides, hitting a target at 500 meters with LRMs is more about the enemies lack of skill than your own skill. You get a lock and you fire, after that there is NO SKILL INVOLVED, the only skill was pressing left trigger or whatever button you use.

As opposed to point at the target (or lead it) and fire? What skill is involved after you fire lasers or ballistics?

[Kiyoshi Amaya]

I was going to mention those ssrm6's. It's not the missiles that are the problem to be honest. The lrms are actually a little weak at the moment. In the past, they caused a lot more damage and where easier to lock on targets... most of the pug games I'm in, I see pugs running everywhere getting shot to pieces because they don't generally think tactically. When I get an lrm alert, I try for cover where possible.

The only problem I have with ssrms is the cockpit shake and the smoke. Oh and while we're talking about ssrms, streakcats can easily be taken down with the cunning use of TEAMWORK!

[Flapdrol]

There's anti boating measures for streaks in the making already.

Anyway, locking onto a target with streaks can be tricky sometimes, but after that it's very, very easy to keep that lock. I wouldn't mind if they make streak lock line of sight based, lrm lock can still be indirect imo.

As for high pingers, I have a ping of 120 ingame, lasers are perfectly viable although you have to lagshoot a bit agianst jenners. My hunchy has 2 streaks to deal with lights and that's enough, together with some lagshooting of the lasers.

[Nostram]

Anyone else find it funny that the OP keeps mentioning leading with a gauss?

Edited by Nostram, 28 November 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[Captain Midnight]

Shrekken, on 28 November 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

I was going to mention those ssrm6's. It's not the missiles that are the problem to be honest. The lrms are actually a little weak at the moment. In the past, they caused a lot more damage and where easier to lock on targets... most of the pug games I'm in, I see pugs running everywhere getting shot to pieces because they don't generally think tactically. When I get an lrm alert, I try for cover where possible.

The only problem I have with ssrms is the cockpit shake and the smoke. Oh and while we're talking about ssrms, streakcats can easily be taken down with the cunning use of TEAMWORK!

Saying use teamwork is a poor argument because the A1 has a team using teamwork as well, and they are all focusing your targets. All other things being equal (skill and positioning and "teamwork") I'd say the team that is working iwth an A1 on it's side is much better off than the team that isn't 9/10 times. Just because you CAN beat something if you try really hard doesn't mean it's balanced; it should achieve victory and suffer defeat just as much as any other build and it's irrefutable that A1s are experiencing nearly total victory.

Nostram, on 28 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Anyone else find it funny that the OP keeps mentioning leading with a gauss?

I never said it was hard, but is it as easy as pressing R?

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[Wolfways]

I do agree that Streaks, if boated, are OP right now. Imo they should lose lock every time they are fired and need to reacquire lock to fire again.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Okay, so first off let me make it known that I hate SSRM and LRM. I think they require zero skill compared to a weapon with a ballistic arc (AC/PPC) or a laser beam. A weapon you have to aim takes skill, a weapon that locks on and auto-aims for you does not.

Lately, I've noticed a lot of people saying that LRM/SSRM (From here on out referred to as Lock On Weapon Systems or "LOWS") still require skill, just a different kind... Tell me, can ANYONE consistently get headshots with AC/20s on their second day of playing? No? Hell can anyone except a talented and practiced player nail headshots consistently period? Nope! Can ANYONE get 600+ damage with no-rearm artemis DDCs on his second day? Yes. People telling me that damage is "all spread around" are delusional because I've been running a 3xLRM15+Artemis Awesome all day and I have been nailing mediums for like 20% of their health per volley, assaults for 7-11%, averaging 600+ damage for holding down left trigger on a target someone ELSE locks. Teamwork? yeah right, more like easy street. If holding down left trigger is teamwork then I'm Ryan Giggs. I kill tagged lights in two goes in those 3xLRM15s; Real skillful!

I've played a lot of games, and PPCs are hard to use, AC20 headshots are hard to get, AC2 requires a good sense of how to lead a target, UAC5 requires you to watch your crosshairs and make sure you don't double fire and jam on accident unless you REALLY need to burst someone... Even Gauss requires you to be able to aim at your target and even though the lead isn't terribly hard it's hard enough that not EVERYONE can do it. It takes some skill... Holding down left trigger takes no skill and will provide more damage to a team.

My question, as in the poll, is do you think that a LOWS weapon like an SSRM that can't miss, locks on, and all the kid has to do is point in your direction and brush his mouse of your mech once every 2 seconds before the lock breaks to keep firing his no-miss lock on missiles... Should that be anywhere near as good as lasers that require you to keep the whole beam on the target the whole time? Should it be as good as an AC that can easily miss and frequently does miss thanks to server lag?

Should LOWS weapons be as good as weapons that require skill? Should they? I think a weapon should provide performance that correlates to skill. LOWS require ZERO SKILL, every other weapon requires at least a modicum of skill and some require a great deal. Does this community want zero skill weapons to be rewarded?

In my opinion LOWS ought to be the WORST POSSIBLE WEAPONS, with the only reason to use them being that you are too poor of a player to effectively use any other weapon, and as you improve you move on to actual skill based weapons and the LOWS remain a crutch for new players just getting started.

In closing, please don't vote "we need LOWS because jenners are OP so keep LOWS how they are", instead vote to nerf jenners (fix lag shield) AND fix LOWS (nerf them to ****). An SRM2 takes skill to hit, and SSRM2 doesn't, and they both do THE SAME DAMAGE. That just isn't right. (The heat is so negligable on either that no one cares about heat, so shut up).

Someone needs a nap. This is a combat sim. Not Basketball. We have taken a lot of pains to make it so we have the ability to kill with a blink of an eye. Will you be QQ like this when WoB uses a Nuke to destroy your whole side? Seriously Making war is easy. Killing is easy. Grow up and face your imminent death with dignity. Whether it's coming from a laser or a missile barrage.

Honestly, you'd think some of you never died in a game before!

[Nightcrept]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

One dimensional sword fighting? SSRM A1s you say? LRM boats spamming anyone who takes one step in any direction you say? I don't think you've played very many games no offense intended. What's no fun is standing still holding down left trigger and racking up 900 damage because the other team wanted to have fun and move around and try to brawl. Brawling is fun, takes skill, the better shot wins. Sniping is fun, takes skill, and the better shot wins.

LRMs take no skill and doesn't even need LOS to outdamage actual legitimate direct fire hard to land weapons. SSRMs are the brawl equivalent.

It's sickening to read your posts. You must cry "I" at least a couple of dozen times. YOU want a unrealistic game.

I have been playing games for decades and tested dozens. Your style of elitist junk as someone else pointed out generally results in horrible games that die early.

YOU want a purely brawling game that in my opinion requires no skill. I don't see anything in this game as especially requiring much skill and you want to dumb it down further into some sort of arena style mech game.

Your preferred method of direct fire requires no more skill and strategy then the LRM guys method. If anything brawling requires less thought then LRM boating and if you insist on trying to create battle arena MWO then it will require even less skill.

When I brawl I like having to actually use my brain figure out where and how to move and not just aim and fire mindlessly with my gauze rifle. I know the maps and where the LRMS can and can't hit (brawling areas) and I watch for them to be firing in another direction and then move in on one for a easy kill. If they catch me out in the open then I will scoot to a covered spot or die.

When I LRM I know that I can spam LRMS but unless the other players are mindless brawler noobs they will be using the same strategies as I do. Thus my missiles will be useless unless i counter move their moves while avoiding the light mechs homing in on my position and all the while maintaining lock on the mech I already fired on.

So unless you run a light mech, they turn on knock downs and you can still get over 600 damage a game on a regular basis please stop the my way is elite stuff.

[IamSeanConnery]

I've argued this time and time again and agree with the OP completely. However, polls always show the users love using LRMs and SSRMs and do not want to give up the power. They want to use these weapons as primary and make up excuses why they take skill to use. They take much less skill and can be trained in a day how to use them optimally in a team setting. This is fact. Try using autocannons for instance. Yes they are powerful. However, you need to learn to aim them properly and also worry about targeting specific body parts as well as positioning your mech within a heated battle and moving while shooting at the same time. You also need to manage heat at the same time as this- more than LRMs and SSRMs.

Skill should be rewarded with POWER. And people who don't prefer that kind of skill can be rewarded with an easy weapon to shoot that is less effective. There will always be a place for LRMs and SSRMs. It's just important to keep this a skill based game along with tactics and not to forgo skill for pure tactics. I don't want to play an LRM warrior online where everyone hides 3/4 of the match and always follows the same covered route to avoid LRM fire. I might as well play a turret defense game instead. However, LRMs are a great tool to enforce tactics and for people who have a harder time due to lag or being new, or enjoy a support role. So I don't want to see them become useless either.

I think lock on weapons are for support and should most often be less effective than direct aimed fire. I'm not saying nerf them though. They're fairly close to where they need to be right now and with ECM it should balance them out completely when they can't get locks at times. Yes. currently, they are a little bit OP due to the lack of ECM. We'll see how it goes.

[Captain Midnight]

I dunno WTF you are talking about nightcrept because you must be trolling... Mindless brawls are CAUSED by streaks, no accuracy required! it's a pure spreadsheet DPS race. You are really saying that by nerfing streaks brawls will become brainless? I think you're brainless; If I was the kind of person who let internet nerds get under my skin you'd be the one making me sick. Even if you do think LRMs take skill, which the more simple minded or cognitively biased amongst us might, they do not take more skill than any other weapon in the game except streaks and they are absolutely irrefutably easier to use than any other long range sniper weapon that's for sure.

I want a competitive e-sports quality multiplayer title where the better shot with the better build wins. SSRM and LRM stand against every part of that.

The absolute cherry on top of that is saying that you think this game is more likely to die if they nerf SSRM/LRM than if they don't. No one in their right mind is going to take this game seriously if it provides ingame weapons that do what most other FPS require hacks to accomplish.

[TRIUMPH]

LRMs are easy to use and it is because of a lack of player input required to obtain the max damage output. A mech with two streaks or two LRM5s for support is fine just to do some okay damage but the problem is a player can be highly effective with a low amount of actions pertain to the FPS genre skill set. Rather than simple nerfs or buffs or blaming a lack of team focus fire, high damage output should be thrown into a players hands and active play should be rewarded. No matter what players will need to play Chess or Go and have the game sense to anticipate attacks or seize the moment with superior positioning and mech builds that promote agility. This part of the skill set is not the issue. The issue is the amount of control the player must exert to maximize damage when utilizing lock on weapons. I suggest playing with the following ideas to increase the skill ceiling. And do understand that I am talking about improving game play for the sake of game play and that none of this has any quandaries with canon since it doesn't matter anymore when other rules and game scale has been altered to appease the games genre and a potential new (money making) audience.


I think that LRM and streaks should require more player input to be used to maximum effect.
Artmemis should be allowing a player to guide their missiles through use of the mouse. But there should be some counters in effect like AMS shooting them down with more ease or machine guns knocking missiles out of the air and these missiles would contain less durability. ECM could end up denying the effect forcing a player to understand where ECM boats are or aim ahead towards where they will be when attempting to hit them. Missile curvature and an activation range based upon target locked would have to be handles looked at closely.

Streaks should require a lock and cursor on the mech to guide into the target. Kind of like a camera or wired guided missile from the BF franchise. This would allow players to potentialy bend a missiles path onto a locked target or hit rear and side components. Time to lock is a handle to prevent abuse. The travel time could be slower therefore giving AMS(or perhaps MGs) a better shot at dealing with the missiles. Given slow missile travel the SSRM would be good against medium and slow targets. Artemis, giving more user control would then be used to counter close fast movers but would be open to destruction at max range by AMS. Lose a lock? Enjoy the missiles going off into wherever (no effect) or a straight line (double edged sword). And obviously ECM can deny use of this weapon and the player aided tracking during the missiles time in play.

Overall the dumber the missile (base LRM, SRM) the more durabile and faster it should be. The smarter the missile the more player implemented opportunity and soft counters it should have.

Hopefully PPC will help things out but it still doesn't address the skill use issue and additional direct control like my suggestions do. It's a soft counter in the positional war.

I also think a couple more mechs could use dual AMS to increase their utility. The Awesome and Raven come to mind. And I have to mention machine guns as a counter to these things just to add addtional utility to force a delma between DPS output or supporting against hard targets to hit as both a strategic and tactical choice.

Overall without more player input and a feeling of randomness make these weapons , like the UAC5, feel as if they aren't (e-)sporting. And I'm not thrilled with people losing a few tons on a mech to avoid paying just for a tighter cone of damage.

Personally I want more to be at a state of play with even if I am competitive and so far it is only the balistics that do that for me. I think PPC will too but I don't find them useful at the moment so I won't use them given how I like to both be at play and win.


P.S. S-Tier means god like or the most effective thing ever. Something that must be used or is completely overpowered to the point that it is obviously imbalanced.

[Joseph Mallan]

Platinum, When the Military stops using every weapon at their disposal to kill people...
So will I. Until such a time, I use all the toys I can to kill you in the game. Skilled kills are awesome and I can get them, but I want to give my team the advantage over your team so I will bomb your eyes buggy or laser your kneecaps off which ever works best for MY side. If you don't like it... I really don't care, I am expecting the same out of your side anyway.

I can and do kill you people with lasers, ballistics and Missiles. and if an old f*ck like me can, grow a pair, and come and get me!

[ciller]

I still can't agree with taking an entire weapon class and making them "the worst in the game" because they "lack skill". I deny your allegations that lrms/srms take no skill and their removal would change the game into a zerg fest. This is not what anyone but you, Captain Midnight, apparently wants.
Are lrms/srms/streaks perfect? No, they are not. I would like to see some differentiation between line of sight and indirect fire with LRMS. Id like to see srms have a bigger role over streaks. Id like to see less streak boats. I'd like a lot of things but none of them make me want to change the game into a zerging brawler-fest.

The best solution to your "lack of skill" claim is to add a larger element of skill into these weapon systems. What that may entail is another discussion but I think it would be nice unlike a complete nerf into oblivion as you seem to suggest.

[Onmyoudo]

I would like to point out that you cannot, in fact, aim with Streaks or LRMs. You cannot cockpit or leg a mech (both of which are usually more effective than CT coring) unless those parts are already damaged and your spread knocks the last little bit of damage over the top. You cannot aim for specific parts of a mech that you may wish to disable (Hunckback RT, Cent RA etc) and you are left hoping that you can core them before they core/leg/cockpit/disarm you in whatever manner they desire.

In addition to this, the fire and forget nature of these missile weapons does not necessarily indicate a lack of skill in that the pilot must still be aware of their surroundings, correctly assess situational tactics and determine the correct moment to fire. Firing LRMs at some dude behind a rock, lock-on or not, is going to get nobody anywhere. If the guy is going to get to the rock before your missiles get to him, it is still a waste of ammo. And so a player who uses LRMs or SSRMs effectively is still (at least) skilled enough that they positioned themselves to be able to use them effectively.

[Captain Midnight]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Platinum, When the Military stops using every weapon at their disposal to kill people...
So will I. Until such a time, I use all the toys I can to kill you in the game. Skilled kills are awesome and I can get them, but I want to give my team the advantage over your team so I will bomb your eyes buggy or laser your kneecaps off which ever works best for MY side. If you don't like it... I really don't care, I am expecting the same out of your side anyway.

I can and do kill you people with lasers, ballistics and Missiles. and if an old f*ck like me can, grow a pair, and come and get me!

This is why I am using LRMs /w the abusive no rearm Artemis bug in the game and arguing for them to be nerfed on the forums. Everyone should do everything they can to win, it's rude to their teammates to do otherwise, but the best way to win ought to be the most fun way to win in a well designed game and right now LRMs and SSRMs are only fun because of how overpowered they are for the user and the fact that you will literally never have a bad round.

I saw a Jenner earlier who got legged by my mate and he said "lucky shot" after he got cored, and you know what? It was a lucky shot. You'd have to be lucky to hit a lag shielded Jenner /w a ballistic weapon and without a doubt that is why the guy is running a Jenner in the first place. He doesn't want to be good, he wants to win. And that's why people use LRMs and Streaks and Jenners. Well guess what I don't have a problem with you using them, I have a problem with you using them and thinking they are fine and should remain as they are and thinking you are an "elite mechwarrior" because you know how to use the most braindead and mechanically abusive builds that ANYONE could use.

Onmyoudo, on 28 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

I would like to point out that you cannot, in fact, aim with Streaks or LRMs. You cannot cockpit or leg a mech (both of which are usually more effective than CT coring) unless those parts are already damaged and your spread knocks the last little bit of damage over the top. You cannot aim for specific parts of a mech that you may wish to disable (Hunckback RT, Cent RA etc) and you are left hoping that you can core them before they core/leg/cockpit/disarm you in whatever manner they desire.

In addition to this, the fire and forget nature of these missile weapons does not necessarily indicate a lack of skill in that the pilot must still be aware of their surroundings, correctly assess situational tactics and determine the correct moment to fire. Firing LRMs at some dude behind a rock, lock-on or not, is going to get nobody anywhere. If the guy is going to get to the rock before your missiles get to him, it is still a waste of ammo. And so a player who uses LRMs or SSRMs effectively is still (at least) skilled enough that they positioned themselves to be able to use them effectively.

Not shooting a mountain = Skill? Okay, great news everyone, every gauss pilot who hasn't unloaded 20 rounds into a hill because he realized the enemy was actually in fact on the OTHER SIDE OF IT is an elite mechwarrior! None of the stuff you mentioned is unique to LRMs, you can't shoot mountainsides with any weapons, you just don't see any other weapon users doing that because no one else can blindly fire at targets a thousand meters away that they can't even see well enough to realize they are behind a mountain. That's how little skill it takes, you can kill someone with LRMs from so far away and with so little brainpower than you could accidently hit the side of a mountain trying to kill them, on accident, and no one would bat an eyelash. If a gauss sniper shot a mountain three times in a row I'd ask if he was on drugs.

Situational awareness, teamwork, all that stuff you mentioned applies to EVERY MECH and to a larger degree than to LOWS.

ciller, on 28 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

I still can't agree with taking an entire weapon class and making them "the worst in the game" because they "lack skill". I deny your allegations that lrms/srms take no skill and their removal would change the game into a zerg fest. This is not what anyone but you, Captain Midnight, apparently wants.
Are lrms/srms/streaks perfect? No, they are not. I would like to see some differentiation between line of sight and indirect fire with LRMS. Id like to see srms have a bigger role over streaks. Id like to see less streak boats. I'd like a lot of things but none of them make me want to change the game into a zerging brawler-fest.

The best solution to your "lack of skill" claim is to add a larger element of skill into these weapon systems. What that may entail is another discussion but I think it would be nice unlike a complete nerf into oblivion as you seem to suggest.

I agree that adding more skill to "lock on" weapons is the ultimate solution but unfortunately by making them LOWS in the first place PGI clearly doesn't want them to require skill, I mean if they wanted them to require skill then why would they lock on and auto aim with a 0% miss chance on streaks and an insanely high damage rate on with no skill based function to improve performance on either weapon system.

I don't think making LRMs worse than every other weapon and same with Streaks will lead to a zergfest, I think it will lead to skill based sniping where bad players are dominated and good players dominate, as opposed to now where you can't really tell the difference between good and bad because 100 damage is what separates the best LRM boat in the world from a merely average one.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 06:14 AM.