249 replies to this topic

[Kiyoshi Amaya]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Saying use teamwork is a poor argument because the A1 has a team using teamwork as well, and they are all focusing your targets. All other things being equal (skill and positioning and "teamwork") I'd say the team that is working iwth an A1 on it's side is much better off than the team that isn't 9/10 times. Just because you CAN beat something if you try really hard doesn't mean it's balanced; it should achieve victory and suffer defeat just as much as any other build and it's irrefutable that A1s are experiencing nearly total victory.

Teamwork is never a poor argument. It's what MWO is supposed to be about (as well as piloting giant stompy mechs while making pew pew sounds) but most of the time it's what's missing in pug matches which is why they get stomped on so much when they go up against premades.

Quote

Just because you CAN beat something if you try really hard doesn't mean it's balanced;

I totally agree with you, however my comment wasn't so focused on balance in that regard. Streakcats have been around for a long time, they're nothing new to many of us.

In any case, PGI have said they're looking at ssrms and making some changes. We'll have to wait and see how they are after the changes.

[FerretGR]

Skill. Bahaha. Point and click with a laser, now that's skill! Point and click with missiles, no skill at all! Good premise. Gamers and their skill arguments are the same everywhere, ie. the weapons/tactics I like are "skill" weapons/tactics, the ones the other guys use are "easy mode."

LRMs/SSRMs have their own issues. There's no AMS for lasers. There's no ECM for lasers. You don't have to maintain lock to hit with lasers. You can't run behind a rock and disengage the lock for lasers. You can't get under a bridge or behind a hill and protect yourself from lasers when the "Incoming laser" message comes up.

As other posters have pointed out, these weapons require a different set of skills to use effectively. As much as you try to discredit these skills as "learned experience," that's the same thing as skill. It's just a different skill and unfortunately it's one that you don't respect.

All of this sounds like sour grapes... like "I get killed by SSRMs/LRMs, so nerf them."

You even say it yourself in an earlier post:

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

but the only skill involved was the enemies evasive maneuvers.

LRMs are only as effective as you describe against UNSKILLED enemies who don't understand how to avoid them. Against experienced players, they're far less effective. I mean, nobody is doing 600 LRM damage against me. They would require "skill" to use effectively in a game where the entire enemy team had experience vs. LRMs.

As for SSRMS, they're not the uberweapon everyone seems to think they are. They only become a (minor) issue in the C1 build, and even then, waaaaah. Shoot the wings, run behind a rock to break lock, use the buddy system, what have you. Stop blaming the other guy's "lack of skill" when you're the one getting killed.

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Brawling is fun, takes skill, the better shot wins. Sniping is fun, takes skill, and the better shot wins.

This isn't brawlerwarrior online or sniperwarrior online. In Mechwarrior Online, we have missiles. And running a team of mechs with a variety of loadouts and specialties and roles, that's much more fun than "give everyone lasers and may the best brawler win." To me at least.

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Platinum, When the Military stops using every weapon at their disposal to kill people...
So will I. Until such a time, I use all the toys I can to kill you in the game. Skilled kills are awesome and I can get them, but I want to give my team the advantage over your team so I will bomb your eyes buggy or laser your kneecaps off which ever works best for MY side. If you don't like it... I really don't care, I am expecting the same out of your side anyway.

I can and do kill you people with lasers, ballistics and Missiles. and if an old f*ck like me can, grow a pair, and come and get me!

Oh, I fully expect you to use every advantage the game gives you! lol. I don't blame anyone for using what's out there. It's where the game is. I'm always revising my builds based on patches. However, I leave it to other team members to boat the LRMs or even streak cats if they want to. I like my builds over those and just don't enjoy it, personally.

I just get a little bent when the streak cat people or LRM boaters try to explain how difficult it is to do what they do and try to justify it like that. I think the most difficult part in playing them is the teamwork. But then again it always comes back to teamwork.

[Nightcrept]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I dunno WTF you are talking about nightcrept because you must be trolling... Mindless brawls are CAUSED by streaks, no accuracy required! it's a pure spreadsheet DPS race. You are really saying that by nerfing streaks brawls will become brainless? I think you're brainless; If I was the kind of person who let internet nerds get under my skin you'd be the one making me sick. Even if you do think LRMs take skill, which the more simple minded or cognitively biased amongst us might, they do not take more skill than any other weapon in the game except streaks and they are absolutely irrefutably easier to use than any other long range sniper weapon that's for sure.

I want a competitive e-sports quality multiplayer title where the better shot with the better build wins. SSRM and LRM stand against every part of that.

The absolute cherry on top of that is saying that you think this game is more likely to die if they nerf SSRM/LRM than if they don't. No one in their right mind is going to take this game seriously if it provides ingame weapons that do what most other FPS require hacks to accomplish.

Then go make your own game.

Mindless groups of leming mechs all rushing to brawl and scream my leet skills with a gun are uber while playing what is supposed to be a combat sim is hilarious to me.

I get a kick out of you thinking there is some sort of accuracy and skill needed with any of the weapons in this game.

This game is all about knowing how and when to hit with what you have.


If they nerf all non-ballistic weapons ti where you want then they are not creating a mech combat simulator they are creating as you say a e-sport mech arena style game for elitists and those games don't keep many casual and new players.

If you can't handle playing a well rounded combat sim then ask for a arena mode don't go crying on the forums about how your idea of a elitist paradise isn't coming true.

[Bluescuba]

Whilst LRM boats can top the damage leader boards, they are not the only mechs that can reach 600+ damage totals... I can hit 800 in a good match with my Dragon gauss and 4 x ML, and also with my Atlas gauss, 2 x SRM6 and 4 x ML...

The problem at the moment is the crappy 4 man premade limits... in the old 8 man days we could send of the lights to scout then harrass the LRM boats. This allowed the battle line to close without being under a constant LRM rain. The bad match making means that premades cannot run with the role specific mechs... having to run generic (jack of all trades) mechs. This has created the lack of diversity in mechs...

As a final note... mgs should be able to knock down missiles... we could then see some new missile defence builds like...

3 x MG Dragons
4 x MG Cataphracts

[Vila deVere]

In a futuristic world, some self-guided weapons are a given. Modern jet fighters use guided missles. The skill associated with using guided weapons has more to do with group tactics than individual gunnery skills. It's a different skill set.

But yes, those weapons have to be balanced, and generally they are. LRMs can be effective, but I'd rather take a salvo of LRM's than an aimed dual gauss shot to the chest. Same with SSRMs and SRMs. I'd rather get hit with a couple streaks than a couple SRM 6 packs.

LRMs should not be SO effective, that a team of LRM boats can rule the field (and right now, they can't). Likewise, the Streacat should not be so effective that 3-4 of them can Roflstomp a team (right now, they can). The goal should be (and I think IS) to make them effective as a MIX of 'Mechs. We'll see how ECM affects that. I expect ECM will upset lots of folks at first, until we all figure out how to counter it, and as it gets balanced by PGI.

[IamSeanConnery]

Vila deVere, on 28 November 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

In a futuristic world, some self-guided weapons are a given. Modern jet fighters use guided missles. The skill associated with using guided weapons has more to do with group tactics than individual gunnery skills. It's a different skill set.

But yes, those weapons have to be balanced, and generally they are. LRMs can be effective, but I'd rather take a salvo of LRM's than an aimed dual gauss shot to the chest. Same with SSRMs and SRMs. I'd rather get hit with a couple streaks than a couple SRM 6 packs.

LRMs should not be SO effective, that a team of LRM boats can rule the field (and right now, they can't). Likewise, the Streacat should not be so effective that 3-4 of them can Roflstomp a team (right now, they can). The goal should be (and I think IS) to make them effective as a MIX of 'Mechs. We'll see how ECM affects that. I expect ECM will upset lots of folks at first, until we all figure out how to counter it, and as it gets balanced by PGI.

Exactly. We're not too far away from balance with ECM coming. I will reserve my judgement until then.

[Wolfways]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I want a competitive e-sports quality multiplayer title where the better shot with the better build wins. SSRM and LRM stand against every part of that.

There's your problem. You want a game where YOU have an equal chance against everyone else. MWO is a team game. I accept that others have different roles within the team. Some are close range brawlers, some snipe, some provide long-range support.

I use a K2 with ERPPC's, 2 SL's, and 2 MG's.
In most matches i get the most damage and/or xp. Sometimes when my team loses i even do better than some of the enemy team. Maybe ERPPC's, SL's and MG's should be nerfed? Oh wait, i'm already using two of the most underpowered weapons ingame.
I snipe and brawl in this mech.

Oh, and sniping is much easier than using LRM's. Pop out, fire, hide. What's so difficult about that?

[Captain Midnight]

FerretGR, on 28 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

This isn't brawlerwarrior online or sniperwarrior online. In Mechwarrior Online, we have missiles.

Someone finally came out and said it, they don't want to try hard they just want to use missiles. No skill required, just the way we like it. This game is such a good simulator it simulates me being good at FPS!

This game is only going to be a mindless brawlfest if you guys aren't good enough shots to hit them on approach. If you KNOW you are bad enough that anyone who runs at you will make it up to you sans LOWS weapon systems, that's sad. I'm just so glad someone finally came out and said it. Nightcrept is in the same boat you are so this goes out to him as well.

"Elitist" lol, expecting people to aim with their mouse in a M&KB FPS? What an elitist ***** this guy is~~~

[Lee Ving]

Just to add my two cents: Sweeping generalizations this, unfounded statement of halftruth that.

[Torarild]

I think the discussion is moot until ECM is introduced and we can see the results of that on lock on.
ECM for light and mediums combined with reduced effectiveness on boating builds, as they have stated they are working on, should make the SSRM Cat and other missile heavy chassis balanced.

LRM seem pretty decent now, they should be good as they have a massive drawback if someone closes with them.
Maybe some tweaking on damage, or a small buff on AMS vs LRM fire is still in order.

Finaly, shake and smoke on quite a few weapons still need tuning.

[Bluescuba]

I just hope to god that they do not make ecm too readily available... It should be restricted to the Atlas DDC and the ravens out of the current mech line up

[Aym]

Grats on coming up with an acronym that shows your anger and disrespect for players that play differently, and perhaps less skillfully than yourself. However, your contempt for LRM's seems to indicate you are not as skilled as you might think.
Try thinking about LRM's not as "LOWS" but as "LOW-Skill tests." Kind of like the re***** tests in WoW requiring you to move out of simple effects on the ground, LRM's require you to move to block line of sight and engage whatever is scouting you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Platinum Booger, on 28 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Oh, I fully expect you to use every advantage the game gives you! lol. I don't blame anyone for using what's out there. It's where the game is. I'm always revising my builds based on patches. However, I leave it to other team members to boat the LRMs or even streak cats if they want to. I like my builds over those and just don't enjoy it, personally.

I just get a little bent when the streak cat people or LRM boaters try to explain how difficult it is to do what they do and try to justify it like that. I think the most difficult part in playing them is the teamwork. But then again it always comes back to teamwork.

Here is the issue. You are not supposed to like me killing you in a loud gratuitous manner. I have beaten every build out there, and I have been in turn beaten by every build out there.

Also you get mad when someone tries to do whet you are doing? Lasers and Ballistics are fire and forget weapons. Even if a laser does not stay on target for the whole time you do damage. At 700 Meters away, behind a hill while you are running at up to 140KpH A missile boat captain has to keep lock on you for the entire flight time to you! So Missiles have the worst chance to hit a target out of every weapon in the game. But they take no skill? I can snipe your head from your shoulders with a Gauss with a few trigger pulls, But Missiles have to repeatedly deliver salvo after salvo to ablate your armor.

Like I said, I use every weapon at my disposal. Cry me a river, We have missiles that can fly down a street, swerve around cars and fly into an open window without cracking the glass in RL, and you are crying foul, cause me or a team mate have to follow you around the computer screen to blow up your avatar of destruction?

*SHRUG* My life expectancy in a fire fight as a Marine 2 decades ago was 2.4 seconds. QQ me a river. Mind fields will take no skill to kill you either, but it was/is the most commonly used weapon the Capellans use! and they also have a Catault that carries on board Artillery. So what will you do when/IF The Arrow IV packing Catapult comes into the game? There are a lot of ways to kill you guys we haven't even explored yet.

[Galenit]

There are people out there using cover i nearly never hit with my lrms.
There are teams out there that shred my lrms with multiple ams.
I think the OP must wok on his skills and loadout ...

[Nightcrept]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Someone finally came out and said it, they don't want to try hard they just want to use missiles. No skill required, just the way we like it. This game is such a good simulator it simulates me being good at FPS!

This game is only going to be a mindless brawlfest if you guys aren't good enough shots to hit them on approach. If you KNOW you are bad enough that anyone who runs at you will make it up to you sans LOWS weapon systems, that's sad. I'm just so glad someone finally came out and said it. Nightcrept is in the same boat you are so this goes out to him as well.

"Elitist" lol, expecting people to aim with their mouse in a M&KB FPS? What an elitist ***** this guy is~~~

What a joke.

Lrms's are VERY easy to avoid NOW!! I have not died once from a LRM boat since the op Artemis patch. I don't die from streak cats either (thanks to the huge hitbox).

I run all setups because i can win with them all.

As I said before you just seem to be here crying because you can't win against LRMS with anything but LRMS. So you want to make LRMS moot so you can win. Otherwise why be here crying about a almost useless weapon system.

[Captain Midnight]

Aym, on 28 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Grats on coming up with an acronym that shows your anger and disrespect for players that play differently, and perhaps less skillfully than yourself. However, your contempt for LRM's seems to indicate you are not as skilled as you might think.
Try thinking about LRM's not as "LOWS" but as "LOW-Skill tests." Kind of like the re***** tests in WoW requiring you to move out of simple effects on the ground, LRM's require you to move to block line of sight and engage whatever is scouting you.

LRMs are like going on a raid as a Paladin whose only job is to click poison on decursive and keep buffs up in Molten Core vanilla. It was so stupid that blizzard classified the original implementation of decursive an exploit because of how braindead it was, and it was harder than using LRMs. LRMs fulfill a valuable role in that they allow your IRL friend who sucks at the game, or the guy you met on teamspeak who isn't really very good to join your group and contribute without having any skill. I just think he should be contributing 300 damage and no kills, not 1000 damage and 6 kills. RIGHT NOW because of the horrible balance a horrible player with LRMs is contributing as much or more than anything short of an excellent player who drives a real mech that takes some effort to use properly. I don't think that's right.

You guys who think it takes skill to land an LRM hit are missing the point, the skill isn't on YOUR end. As an LRM firer you simply move with your team and fire at the targets they call. You are indistinguishable from a bot. There are no "bold plays" by an LRM boat. You simply fire at the primary target and hold fire when your spotter says you aren't hitting them. Holding lock on target is determined by A: Can you point your mouse inside of their giant lock square for at least one milisecond every 2 seconds? B: Is your spotter able to keep them spotted? and C: Are they ducking behind cover to escape your spotter?

The spotter and the guy ducking behind cover are engaged in a battle of wits, skill is involved, maneuvering and aim-based shooting even. YOU, the LRM USER, are not using any skill. You are pressing left trigger as the game happens around you. If you feel the need to say it takes skill because you can't sleep at night unless you're an elite mechwarrior, please stop reading my thread because eventually I might break through and shatter your reality with these truth bombs I'm lobbing.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 28 November 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[Galenit]

Forget something:

Can i please have a system, that reduces ballistic and laser damage by 20% for only 1,5 tons ?

[ciller]

I think Captain Midnight is doing an effective job of trolling.

[Nightcrept]

@cap
Your seriously missing the point.

LRM boating is no more or less skill intensive then any other part of this game. We have all played most all of the various builds and most of us are trying to get that through your head.

If you think that one is harder then another then that is your opinion and not the majority. I find brawling and doing so successfully fairly easy.