125 replies to this topic

[Vulix]

The Jenner has been my favorite mech since June, and it was the first mech I mastered once open beta started. I'll be first to say they are near invincible right now.

However, I think prohibiting them from having ECM is too much. They need to be balanced in other ways, and will also suffer from netcode fixes. Perhaps reduced armor, worse heat dissipation\tolerance, etc

[Comassion]

Jman5, on 28 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

The problem is that if you remove the jenner's ECM ability suddenly it becomes as useless as the Raven is now. No one would pick the slight advantage over the powerful guardian ECM ability of the Raven/Commando. All 3 lights need it.

I disagree - the Jenner would likely remain a very viable and dangerous 'mech, because that's what it is now. In terms of combat power, it's the most dangerous light. ECM will not change that, and that's worth a lot. The Jenner thus remains king of its role as a 'Scout / Striker'.

ECM capabilities look very good on paper - and I really like that. I want this 'role warfare' stuff to work, and it won't work unless it's powerful.

Remember that ECM works in a bubble. It confers these benefits not just to the ECM 'mech, but to nearby friendlies as well.

So let's talk about a pair of light 'mechs.

Pair 1: Two Jenners.
Pair 2: Two Ravens.
Pair 3: Jenner + Raven.

If we give ECM to Jenners:
Pair 1: Full ECM and best combat capability.
Pair 2: Full ECM, less combat capable.
Pair 3: Full ECM, moderate combat capability.

If you give ECM to Jenners, Pair 1 wins every time.

If we don't give ECM to Jenners:
Pair 1: Best combat capability, no ECM.
Pair 2: Full ECM, less combat capable.
Pair 3: Half ECM, moderate combat capability.

Look at that. All three groups now enjoy some advantage and disadvantage against the others, and it's not clear which one is the best - heck, you might even opt to choose different match-ups depending on what role you wanted to play during the match. And Pair 3 - the one with variety - may actually be the best option if you're using teamwork, because the ECM Raven can keep his Jenner buddy shielded and still enjoy the superior combat power of a Jenner in the pair. Heck, you might even choose to bring a Commando, because it'll be the only ECM-equipped 'mech that can keep up with a full-speed Jenner.

[Adridos]

Vulix, on 28 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

However, I think prohibiting them from having ECM is too much.

In what other ways are they not the top of the line?

They are the fastest. They have the most weapons. They have JJs. They have the most armour.

[Comassion]

Vulix, on 28 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

However, I think prohibiting them from having ECM is too much.

Why? Many other 'mech chassis that are arguably not as good as the Jenner aren't getting ECM either.

[Screech]

As soon as they take away AMS from most of the other mechs as well, sure. Otherwise just haters hating.

[Joseph Mallan]

Comassion, on 28 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Why? Many other 'mech chassis that are arguably not as good as the Jenner aren't getting ECM either.

And that is the problem. ECM is a piece of equipment that honestly can go in one chassis it can go in all Chassis? The restriction is to placate the QQ crowd. However as long as I can put an ECM into the Stalker-4F I will be fine.

Quote

As soon as they take away AMS from most of the other mechs as well, sure. Otherwise just haters hating.

Oh I like this idea!!! I mean it is about balance after all.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Kilgore]

So what happens when a Jenner D is being chased by a Jenner D that both have ECM? Will each other's teammates be able to get missile locks on both? Does it matter what setting their ECM is in?

[Lupin]

Give the Raven something to do.

[Imagine Dragons]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

However as long as I can put an ECM into the Stalker-4F I will be fine.

The cannon variant of the Stalker with GECM, the 3Fb isn't listed as an intial variant... so I hope so too...

[Thirdrail]

I've never really understood the balancing on light mechs. In tabletop, you're allotting a certain amount of resources, so it makes sense to have less capable, less functional, variants in the light category. But here, in MWO, everyone has, essentially, an infinite supply of money, and a finite number of things they could purchase, so resources aren't really a factor in game balance. So why ever pilot any light that's not a jenner? (Aside from just liking the raven or commando because you like them.)

If jenners can't have ECM suites, then it seems like there would finally be a real reason to use the other lights.

I will admit, lights are not my specialty, so it's entirely possible I'm missing some subtle aspects of the commando and raven that make them comparable to the almighty jenner.

[hammerreborn]

Kilgore, on 28 November 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

So what happens when a Jenner D is being chased by a Jenner D that both have ECM? Will each other's teammates be able to get missile locks on both? Does it matter what setting their ECM is in?

If both are running ECM on, no.
If both or one is running in counter mode, yes.

Edit: technically, you could get missle locks with both running their ECM if they happen to be CODing in the band between sensor working and the blocks on target info transmission (mainly, 2?? (if modules increase this range or not) - 180m).

Edited by hammerreborn, 28 November 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Fugu]

The Jenner just doesn't need it and would even make any other light obsolete. Or rather, they'd stay obsolete.
I'm not even convinced that the Cicada needs ECM.

The Raven ought to have it. It's pretty much the entire point of the Raven.

The Commando having it would do no harm and maybe even might make the Commando very much more desirable as a scout hunter or just a cheaper Raven with appropriate drawbacks.

I am a Raven pilot by the way.


Oh and in MW:O the Jenner is absolutely not a scout and shouldn't be as effective at it as other 'Mechs because it already stands head and shoulders over the other lights right now. Without ECM it would still make a formidable scout hunter when in direct contest to the other lights.

Preemptively I'd also like to propose that the Flea also doesn't need ECM. It's armed to the brim for it's weight and enormously fast. ECM in a Flea would then make the Commando having ECM redundant.

Screech, on 28 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

As soon as they take away AMS from most of the other mechs as well, sure. Otherwise just haters hating.

I am all for that! There is only one 'Mech in the game who ought to have it. Beagle should be restricted, too.
Make the variants actually count instead of making x is just a worse y stuff.

Edited by Fugu, 28 November 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

XenomorphZZ, on 28 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

The cannon variant of the Stalker with GECM, the 3Fb isn't listed as an intial variant... so I hope so too...

It really isn't much of a mod to make it a Royal Stalker. ERs over standard Large, drop SRMs increase to 15s, dub sink and an ECM. Easy mod.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 November 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Kilgore]

hammerreborn, on 28 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

If both are running ECM on, no.
If both or one is running in counter mode, yes.

Edit: technically, you could get missle locks with both running their ECM if they happen to be CODing in the band between sensor working and the blocks on target info transmission (mainly, 2?? (if modules increase this range or not) - 180m).

So if all Jenners running around will be D variants and equipped with ECM, it stands to reason that if someone on their team needed to obtain better missile locks they would ask their Jenner to run in Counter mode. That means the same Jenner that's already spotting for their LRM buddies will also be making sure the locks are maintained.

Any enemy Jenner with ECM that wants to stop this from happening would be engaging a Jenner with ECM and any disrupt effect would be cancelled out, leaving the enemy jenner vulnerable to friendly LRM attacks or being detected on radar.

It doesn't seem like it will play out quite the way the OP expects it to.

Edited by Kilgore, 28 November 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Comassion]

PGI has updated the ECM announcement:

http://mwomercs.com/...64#entry1507364

Thank you PGI! You've made me (and hopefully many others) very happy. ECM really would have been a bit much for us. I really want to see the Raven and Commando get more love now.

[Comassion]

Kilgore, on 28 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Any enemy Jenner with ECM that wants to stop this from happening would be engaging a Jenner with ECM and any disrupt effect would be cancelled out, leaving the enemy jenner vulnerable to friendly LRM attacks or being detected on radar.

It doesn't seem like it will play out quite the way the OP expects it to.

I've already addressed this - the problem here is that you have to stay really close to me for that to work, so I can just lead you back to my friendly forces. You're left with the choice of holding the lock and taking a bunch of fire from my allies (and if I'm close enough I'll be within our Atlas' ECM bubble and thus overpower your ECM), or you break off to preserve yourself and lose LRM lock.

In any case, it's a moot point - it's time the Raven had its day in the sun, and it is coming soon.

[ciller]

Jenner no longer has ECM. Good work people! I think. :/

[LionZoo]

Now can we get it added to all the other Raven platforms? Asking for too much?

[anonymous175]

His name... is David Bradley.

[Kunae]

Kraven Kor, on 28 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Commando is "canon" as having ECM. Jenner is not.

Wrong. The Commando has no canon justification for having ECM.

Neither do any of the other mechs, other than the Raven, in their list. The Atlas has a few variants with it, but they don't come til the "J1had" era.

PGI. Please have another discussion amongst yourselves and limit ECM to only the mechs and variants which canonically have it.

Of the mechs which are currently available, ONLY the Raven should have ECM.

Cicada definitely should not have ECM.

Edited by Kunae, 28 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.