88 replies to this topic

[LaserAngel]

Randodan, on 01 December 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Is PPC considered a ballistic weapon? If so, it should cause damage as soon as the projectile leaves the barrel.

That's the same as saying that when shooting someone with a gun, they have to be x amount of meters away before the gun hurts them. Imagine this in the real world: "Uhm... could you back up a little because otherwise my gun really doesn't hurt you but your coming at me with a knife..."

Here is a detailed article you can look at about the PPC.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

I feel silly copying the entire article here but yes, it's an energy weapon that behaves much like a ballistic weapon. To make up for its infinite ammunition is generates a lot of waste heat and suffers from travel time to target.

[Pugnacious Stoat]

Minimum range is a terrible way to balance the PPC, because it relegates the weapon to a support role. With the amount of cover on these maps, and the tendency for battles to turn into brawls, staying close to the main combat group means that you cannot reliably prevent enemy mechs from advancing to point blank range, and rendering your weapons useless. As a result, you're forced to stay well away from the main fight and take long-range shots when you have the chance. That should be the role of the ER PPC. The standard PPC should be best at medium to long range, but still versatile enough for front line mechs to use without being completely screwed when someone gets close.

Beyond that, the PPC minimum range sticks out as glaringly inconsistent in a number of ways. For one thing, other direct fire weapons (including the Gauss rifle) have minimum ranges in TT, but none of those were included in MWO. Why not just get rid of the PPC's minimum range as well? Also, what good reason is there, from a gameplay perspective, to give the standard PPC a minimum range when the ER PPC has none? The ER PPPC has the longest range and the highest heat generation per shot of any weapon in the game. Clearly, it's intended (and only useful) for sniping, so why should players who use it be penalized less for fighting at point blank range?

[Hatachi]

It's basically a bolt of man made lightning. Hence my explanation of why the inhibitor stops the (sometimes, basically at random) PPC from firing if it calculates a chance of feedback hurting the weapon. This is different from the reasoning behind in tabletop which is that the weapon is too unwieldy to aim accurately in close ranges. The best way to mirror PPCs would have a random chance of not firing on targets within minimum range similar to a Ultra AC range unless you turn off the inhibitor, then the same roll would do damage but also damage the PPC. Gauss I would implement by removing convergence inside 90m.

[Wolfways]

LaserAngel, on 01 December 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Here is a detailed article you can look at about the PPC.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

From Sarna.
"The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire"

From MWOWIKI.ORG.
PPC max range = 1080m
AC2 max range = 2160m
AC5 max range = 1620m
AC10 max range = 1350m
AC20 max range = 810m

Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

[LaserAngel]

Wolfways, on 01 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

From Sarna.
"The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire"

From MWOWIKI.ORG.
PPC max range = 1080m
AC2 max range = 2160m
AC5 max range = 1620m
AC10 max range = 1350m
AC20 max range = 810m

Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

And in TT weapons magically stop dealing damage 1m beyond its listed range. Yes, we have x2/3 range fall offs from optimum to 0. In another ER Energy thread there were suggestions to treat PPCs more like ballistics and give them the x3 range. Seriously, it's hard for people to keep track of trying to translate a turn based, dice rolling table top game to real time and then remember what additional changes have been made. We can at least remember it.

http://mwomercs.com/...322-er-weapons/

[Hatachi]

Actually rules exist for extreme range. It's just that it's just highly improbable to make the roll or downright impossible. (4 Gunner + 6 range, + 2 for running if you ran. If they moved enough to get even a +1 modifier then the roll is just impossible on 2 dice or if you stood still and they got a +3.)

[LaserAngel]

Hatachi, on 01 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Actually rules exist for extreme range. It's just that it's just highly improbable to make the roll or downright impossible. (4 Gunner + 6 range, + 2 for running if you ran. If they moved enough to get even a +1 modifier then the roll is just impossible on 2 dice or if you stood still and they got a +3.)

At least we have some chance on our DoT lasers and at longer ranges without having to roll 2d6 is it? I merely posted a link to Sarna since it is a good resource for understanding the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe and I felt silly reposting an entire article. Everything you wanted to know about the how and why of the PPC is there. I will admit this game runs things a little differently but the spirit of the tabletop is there.

[Hatachi]

I understand that. I just think it's a misconception a lot of people have about battletech is that damage just stops. It's just they have silly inaccurate targeting computers. I know how PPCs work. If you look at a post I made earlier I explained why differences exist for the reasoning behind the the negative modifers in close range for Gauss/ Small ACs and PPCs. I pointed it out because I simply don't understand how they came to the idea of it doing no damage. They could of just done a Ultra AC style jam chance in close range and it would of lowered dps and make much more logical sense both real world and in the internal logic of the setting.

[Onyx Rain]

I think PPC min range should be eliminated or reduced to 40-70meters.....It just isn't fun to use for many people with the min range, and it does put noobs in a bad position, since PPC/ERppc are iconic weapons that new people to the game gravitate towards only to find they are some of the worst or at least most difficult weapons to use in a build effectively.

I believe slight drops in heat to ppc/erppc, and reducing min range on ppc still keeps them different enough to leave ac10 and other weapons viable while making the ppc/erppc more viable and more fun to play.

[Laokin]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I agree that the PPC does not need a minimum range... Whats the argument behind this anyway? to make taking ERPPC worth it? If that is the logic, then ERLarge Laser needs a minimum range too.





AHA, there it is....

Remove minimum range on PPC. I for one never use it because of that. So it has become a shelved weapon because of that 90 meter joke of a minimum range. Also, add more damage to ERPPC for those that suffer the extra heat for a little extra range. This way both weapons will be desirable.

ERPPC = Extended Range PPC.

The ER PPC should have a minimum range but a considerably further maximum range. The PPC should have no minimum range but have a shallow maximum range.

Why would the extended range PPC have no minimum damage range when it's intent is to shoot FURTHER than the stock PPC?

This is kind of silly and I'm sure is an antiquated remnant of TT rules.

[197mmCannon]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

To ******* hell with canon

This right here.

This game needs to balance based on how it works in game.

Get over tt rules.

With that's said, the ppc does do a little bit of damage under 90. I know because I finished off a leg with a standard ppc once.

[Hatachi]

I don't require a perfect implementation of Tabletop, but I do think the reasoning behind the negatives to things should be looked at due to keeping consistent internal logic to a setting. Look at Ender's Game. It's technology is wacky as all get out, but the universe tends to follow its own internal logic well.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree...especially since the erppc has no min range. let go of TT in this case so both the ppc and erppc are viable choices.

[SpiralRazor]

The ERPPC has no minimum range because its the evolution of the weapon... The eggheads figured out how to prevent the weapon from feeding back into the mech and extended the weapons operational range at the same time....this was at the cost of much higher heat. That explanation is canon btw.


Still...the minimum range has to go....because well, logic.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 02 December 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

LaserAngel, on 01 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

And in TT weapons magically stop dealing damage 1m beyond its listed range. Yes, we have x2/3 range fall offs from optimum to 0. In another ER Energy thread there were suggestions to treat PPCs more like ballistics and give them the x3 range. Seriously, it's hard for people to keep track of trying to translate a turn based, dice rolling table top game to real time and then remember what additional changes have been made. We can at least remember it.

http://mwomercs.com/...322-er-weapons/

It actually was that way in the Closed Beta for a while - for both PPC types, IIRC. And then they increased its rate of fire (which it didn't need, because it's problem was already then heat, not DPS).

[Vincent Lynch]

Sajuk Kar, on 01 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

So does the ER PPC having no minimum range really all boil down to a printing error? Like some people have said? Because how they work in the TT or this game doesn't really make sense. Like how does pumping even more power through a PPC, to give it more range, then somehow make it safe to use up close with its field inhibitor turned off? If anything it should do MORE damage to you if its used under 90m. If its all due to a messed up rulebook, I wouldn't be surprised though.

canon fluff says somewhere that the ERPPC runs so hot because it uses a different type of capacitor to negate the minimum range.

[Sajuk Kar]

SpiralRazor, on 02 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

The ERPPC has no minimum range because its the evolution of the weapon... The eggheads figured out how to prevent the weapon from feeding back into the mech and extended the weapons operational range at the same time....this was at the cost of much higher heat. That explanation is canon btw.


Still...the minimum range has to go....because well, logic.

Vincent Lynch, on 02 December 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

canon fluff says somewhere that the ERPPC runs so hot because it uses a different type of capacitor to negate the minimum range.

But that still doesn't make complete sense. Wouldn't the extra range by itself be a requirement for the extra heat? If it had some sort of special capacitor, wouldn't the make more extra heat? Take the example of the ER Large Laser, the only other extended range weapon currently in the game. It generates 10 heat to the large laser's 7, an increase of 3, which is almost the same as between the PPC and the ERPPC (4). Yet the ERLL gets no benefits from this besides extended range, it doesn't do more damage, it doesn't have a faster cooldown. Logically, the relationship between the PPC and ERPPC would be the same.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 02 December 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[Vincent Lynch]

Sajuk Kar, on 02 December 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

But that still doesn't make complete sense. Wouldn't the extra range by itself be a requirement for the extra heat? If it had some sort of special capacitor, wouldn't the make more extra heat? Take the example of the ER Large Laser, the only other extended range weapon currently in the game. It generates 10 heat to the large laser's 7, an increase of 3, which is almost the same as between the PPC and the ERPPC (4). Yet the ERLL gets no benefits from this besides extended range, it doesn't do more damage, it doesn't have a faster cooldown. Logically, the relationship between the PPC and ERPPC would be the same.

the range extension from LL to ERLL is larger than from PPC to ERPPC I think

[Monky]

If minimum range is dropped from PPC, why use ER PPC? Gonna sit and snipe at max distance all round, every fight? I don't buy it.

Balance the PPC around what it is supposed to be, buff accordingly. Don't just throw in 'space energy cannons', if it isn't a PPC it doesn't need to be in. Right now, the Dev team is considering lowering heat (at least on ER PPC), increasing projectile travel time, and adding in EMP effects, all of which could help dramatically.

[Sajuk Kar]

Vincent Lynch, on 02 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

the range extension from LL to ERLL is larger than from PPC to ERPPC I think

It's just the opposite, the range of the LL goes from 450 to 675 with the ER, and the max range from 900 to 1350. Thats a difference of 225 and 450 meters.

The PPC has a range of 540 and 810 for the ER, max range of 1080 and 1620. That's a difference of 270 and 520 meters. So with the ERPPC you get an even bigger range increase and no minimum range all for just one more heat than the using ERLL over LL.