225 replies to this topic

[Bors Mistral]

- Increase the damage done bonus from 10x to 40x
- Boost salvage bonus by about 30%
- If you die to self death of any kind in the first 10 minutes of the game, you get no XP and your income for the match is cut in half.
- If you inflict no damage on enemy units, your XP and your C-Bill reward are both halved.

There you have it, more incentive to actually play and perform. No need to do with sweeping changes.

[Chrithu]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

My proposal is troll proof, griefer proof, suicider proof, team killer proof, afker proof, trial mech grind proof, and makes many many people happy. What you got against that? Seriously what do you have against a positive change to the economic model? You havent posted anything yet resembling an actual argument against it. I answered everyone of stupid your questions without losing my patience. I know you are just trying to troll me. Go back to your caves.

I know it was poointed at JPsi. But since you told me my posts had ZERO points to discuss I just repeat what I said in my first preply: I agree with your premisse that the reward and R&R systems cause the problem.

I just don't agree with R&R and base rewards being removed completely. R&R should be tweaked and base reward along with it so that getting out of the match without taking damage does mean something aswell, because it's not a rare occasion that when I am scouting I do very little damage and net no kill at the end of the match. In your proposed system that would mean I get very little while still being usefull for my team and the win.

Yes this would still leave open a small window for AFK farming, but the alternative would be to punish players that are useful but do not much of the stuff that get's reflected in rewards.

Edited by Jason Parker, 30 November 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Vhailor1980]

I agree that the reward system is wrong. People who actually don't do anything should get almost nothing.
But think on a newbie to the mechwarrior saga, who does not know the game at all, maybe not even know base fps mechanics. It feel like a waste of time playing, becouse you don't earn anything at all. And how about people who play recon mechs?
I think they should nerf the base reward a bit and boost by A LOT the dmg done bonus, the assist bonus and the spot target bonus.

Still i have earned all i have(mechs and equip) by myself playing almost every game(Beside bugs, internet downs and one or two afk due to Irl need). I don't like to feel stupid, but i feel so if everyone can grief/use bot/cheat and i dont do that. Actually, if everyone do that i just stop playing. I don't want to stay in a game where there are no people playing but just people using bots for farm. It's just plain stupid... i use a computer... to play games. But hey wait, i use the computer so HE play the games... while i.. read a book? Surf internet? So why i have to keep the PC on in first place or play the game!?

Please, ban them all as has to be.

[ciller]

Ive been playing 2 months or so and have over 700 matches, not because I need things but because the game is fun. Death match games are not a grind. The whole purpose is to play match after match because its the entire point of the game.

Its like calling Counter Strike, TF2, or any other matched based game a grind. It just doesn't make sense to me. Getting into different (perhaps better) mechs and items is the bonus for playing a lot.

[Ransack]

I am not understanding the problem with the economy. Since the last patch, I have not activated my premium time, and have been running non founder's mechs with XL engines and weapons that need reloads (missles, ballistics) and have not been having a hard time making money.

Exploiters and suiciders need to go. I saw one guy last night intentionally kill a teammate, then blow himself up at the start of the match. They both lol'ed about it and DC'ed. Down two at River City did not turn out well. Personally I'm sick of them. I wish that there was a black list feature that would prevent people like that from dropping on a team with me. Phase 2 can't get here quick enough. There had better not be any "delays" this time, cuz I am sick of forced PuGging.

[JPsi]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

My proposal is troll proof, griefer proof, suicider proof, team killer proof, afker proof, trial mech grind proof, and makes many many people happy. What you got against that? Seriously what do you have against a positive change to the economic model? You havent posted anything yet resembling an actual argument against it. I answered everyone of stupid your questions without losing my patience. I know you are just trying to troll me. Go back to your caves.

I have no problem iff it was all positive, unfortunately you seem to fail to recognise the negative along with it.
Ok.. you still missed the most important parts and actually haven't answered with anything besides "it rewards performance". I'll try repeat those. It HURTS the legitimate players.

Your "performance" rewards, give c-bills to individual performance, yet potentially hurt team performance. As I've stated yet you haven't replied to. Kills/assists, caps and scouting are NOT good measures of performance. Sometimes they are, others they are rather inaccurate.

Measuring performance on ONLY those factors, is a poor measure of performance. There are many small factors in team play that contribute towards a win. Now, I can give individual examples repeatedly for many different situations, but it becomes hard to cover them all. However I'll give one very simple example so hopefully you can understand the point I'm trying to make.

Scenario : 7 of your team-mates have gone up one side of map. They meet with 5 Opposing Units. You are in a reasonably well armored mech and see the other 3 moving in to flank. You know via the weapons loadouts, that iff you intercept them, you will die, however it should take them quite some time to kill you. In the mean time this would lead to a 7v5 situation which unless something drastic goes wrong, your team should win, leaving the advantage of the match in your teams favor.

Now, decision time, should I intercept, or let them flank? If I let them flank, I have the potential of getting in on all 8 of the kills, thereby potentially getting far more kill assists/kills yet have hurt my own teammates in doing so. Iff I intercept, I'm limited to at most 3 kills/assists total, yet I've made a potentially game winning move.

Now.. under the Current system, the 20k win reward (difference between loss and win) is far greater than than the potential earnings from the extra kills/assists I personally get. I have the incentive to intercept. Under your proposal, the incentive would have been to let them flank.

Now, I've just shown you a very clear example of how your system promotes screwing over your own team for personal profit.
Long post, sorry about that also. I have difficulty in trying to explain this in a short and simple manner. This is only one example of many. Its for these reasons that I'm advocating many of the other ways of dealing with the grief being caused than this proposal.

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Hekalite]

I have no problem with PGI investing time fixing the underlying issues which lead some people to choose the easy (sleazy) way out. In the meantime, a practice of suspend & ban is absolutely necessary. I'm not at all concerned about the players who will quit because they can't farm, I am concerned about the legitimate players who quit because they can't get a decent 8v8 match.

[Chrithu]

Ransack, on 30 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I am not understanding the problem with the economy.

Just to get that straight so the thread does not derail further into a "Is there a grind or not" discussion (sorry about that I know I partly started this): The problem with the economy is that it currently encourages the undesired behaviour you described. So for Teralitha, alot of others and me it's only logical to tweak the economy again instead of trying to win the race against the exploiters and griefers, because experience with other games tells that you as the developer have lost this race already when it starts. The only way to stop the race is to fix the exploits.

[Mal]

I'm disappointed.. the title of the thread suggested Niko had been exploiting or griefing, and was looking forward to reading some sort of sordid tale about how he was invulnerable on the battleground, killed everyone with a single small laser, or something like that... =(

[AlexEss]

two wrong does not make one right. Exploiting and intentionally disrupting the gameplay for other (yes i have seen matches with 3 or 4 of these "poor farmers" both on my own side and the opposing side.) is wrong no matter how you try to spin it. So no i fully support them being kicked to the curb once the game goes live (for now they are in a way providing a service as they expose flaws in the system) and there is no way you can paint that kind of behaviour in a good light, it is selfish and anti-social and ruins this game more then anything the devs does, because not only do the ruin the matches them self the behaviour can have a ripple effect as someone loosing a few matches due to these people might give up them self.

In short, banning them will be a proper way to deal with the problem

[Joseph Mallan]

Check the Battletech forums...
...
...
All Niko is known for is wearing a dress. Or so it would appear in any poll.

EXAMPLE:
Are ECMs going to ruin the game?
* Yes
* No
* Maybe
* Niko in a Dress.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 November 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Taryys]

Report them @ Support@MWOMercs.com and let the mods handle it.

Stop Hazing and Start Raising...

Please sign here for solutions:

How To Reduce The Grind And Create A Great New User Experience

[BloodLegacy]

No, screw all that, hackers, botters, suiciders, and AFKers should get ONE WARNING, then hit 'em with the ban hammer.

Its against the terms of use, unsportsman, and unethical.

You can exploit any kind of system, and the people doing this would exploit any system in place. THEY are the problem, not the system. I'm not saying the system isn't broken, it needs improvement, but frankly, we dont need people like that playing this game.

[pjnt]

I agree with both sides of this argument. Carrot and stick solution. Keep banning people who abuse the system and keep on PGI to fix the game making it hard to be abused.

The problem is out of control. Every match has
-AFKérs, which can be credit farming or CTD's.
-Overheater, which is deliberate for farming or accidental during combat.
-TK's. which is deliberate or accidental FF.

Need to punish the first half yet tolerate the second. I would say make the game hard to do the first by checking time in game, % of dam to friendlies vs foes and how both vs time overheated. It will not be perfect so it is important for the players to continue to report abusers.

I also think PGI should post a list of the players the have gone too far and got themselves banned. IE. Kevin Anchor was a knowb overheating credit farmer (no name and shame here, he got banned and thus no longer has an account -under that name). It shows they are being diligent in their efforts. Repeat offenders, like say if he made an account called Kevin Anchor 2 and did the same things, they can nail the IP.

So carrot and stick. I agree with the OP almost 100% but also think abusers should be gutted.

Edited by pjnt, 30 November 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[AlexEss]

IPban is about as useful as nipples on a awesome.. HWID is a little more effective but in the end F2P games will always be plagues with re-rolls.

[dF0X]

Lock all mechs during a match, and do not reward any cbills for suicide.

Problem solved.

Heavy handed? Yes
Better than current? Yes

This will give PGI to come up with a better solution,

[JPsi]

AlexEss, on 30 November 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

IPban is about as useful as nipples on a awesome.. HWID is a little more effective but in the end F2P games will always be plagues with re-rolls.

Yes, but the vast majority give up if they can't get anywhere. Theres a lot less point to any of the abuse if you believe you'll lose everything within a very short timeframe of doing so.

[Scratx]

The OP, while well intentioned, misses the mark. The players abusing the game mechanics in this manner are behaving in an anti-social way. They have to be punished if they persist.

That said, yes, do fix the underlying issues, but claiming it's the system's fault that people exploit it is silly. I know many ways of exploiting the game's mechanics to my benefit, yet I don't. Why? Because I like having fun without ruining others' fun. I play the game as intended, or at least as I believe is intended...

Seriously, don't defend exploiters. They know what they are doing is wrong.

[Sprouticus]

I think you are all missing one point


By making it clear and drawing a line in the sand, PGI will stop the behavior. Being banned is a HUGE deterrant. These people have (for the most part) already made some money and have time invested. If it is clear that they will lose that money, they will stop their behavior, so as to not lose their money.


As for fixing the system, the post says they are making efforts. I applaud those of you who have posted suggestions, and I hope PGI uses some of them. But in the end it WILL take time (and remember priorities) to modify such things. They dont want to break the economy trying to fix this. I believe they have income/RnR is a good spot now, and screwing it up wiuld cause more problems than it would fix. So yea, they have to be really careful.

[Bagheera]

Thorn Hallis, on 30 November 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

No player is forced to exploit the game mechanics.

This.

These expliots all constitute griefing the players who are unfortunate enough to be on the same team as the exploiter. Are there flaws in the reward system? Sure. Are there flaws in the new player experience? Absolutely.

Are these excuses to grief other players? Absolutely not. This is not an instanced MMO where farmers can go run off and not bother anyone or ruin anyone's match by finding exploits to maximize profit. Here such exploit farming directly affects other player's in-game experience. By intentionally gimping the team they drop with at the start of the match, they are intentionally griefing their would-be teammates. If all they were doing was torquing the FakeMoneyEconomy by flooding it with high value goods or something, that would be different and PGI could approach the problem with a less heavy hand.

Also, changes are in-bound:

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-trial-mechs/

Though given the age of that post, an update with some additional info on what they had in mind would be most welcome.

Finally, even if MW:O had a perfect new user experience and a perfect rewards system, farmers would still farm. Yes, there would be drastically fewer of them, but they would still exist in some form or another. I concur that something has to be done for new users, but failing to deal with those who would farm no matter the reward system is not the answer.

Edited by Bagheera, 30 November 2012 - 07:45 AM.