225 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

AndyHill, on 30 November 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

It's really quite straightforward. The griefers and exploiters need to go, now. The earning mechanisms could and probably should be more rewarding, but even if there's a massive overhaul of everything I will STILL be happy about every exploiter that has been banned forever. This game and community simply does not need people who don't care about the dozens or hundreds of people they **** off with their actions as long as it's profitable to them personally. It doesn't really matter very much what kind of mechanisms are implemented, these are just the sort of people who will find a way to grief and exploit no matter what is done.

The question is not at all about mechanisms etc., it's all about giving a crab about other people. Which is a big deal in multiplayer games.

Its funny you mention that... someone has actually voted to keep griefers.... probably a griefer....lol

[JPsi]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

A win/loss reward is only necessary because of the repair/rearm feature. You can get rid of both and at the same time end the suicider/griefer menace. You saying youd rather keep the griefrs just to keep rearm/repair? its a nice notion, but I think we can safely say it doesnt work here.

Also note that removing rearm/repair costs would further throw out weapon balance, some of which are partially balanced upon the cost of ammo. (I'm all for that presuming said weapons then get balanced out in game to compensate)

No, what I'm saying is. Even without repair costs, with no win bonus there is little incentive to play a tanking role. How do they make money? Those that do will in all probability at most get a few kill assists even though they played a critical role in the teams success. Personal profit in the economy should reward team play. The tank role stands to do less damage and missout on the cap bonus and many assists. Possibly add in a small win bonus? Ie. 20K seems about right. (the current difference between a win and a loss)

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[Teralitha]

JPsi, on 30 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Also note that removing rearm/repair costs would further throw out weapon balance, some of which are partially balanced upon the cost of ammo. (I'm all for that presuming said weapons then get balanced out in game to compensate)

No, what I'm saying is. Even without repair costs, with no win bonus there is little incentive to play a tanking role. How do they make money? Those that do will in all probability at most get a few kill assists even though they played a critical role in the teams success. Personal profit in the economy should reward team play. The tank role stands to do less damage and missout on the cap bonus and many assists. Possibly add in a small win bonus? Ie. 20K seems about right. (the current difference between a win and a loss)

Tanking role? are you on drugs? This isnt an RPG sir.... we dont have healers. Every mech is loaded with weapons. no one just "tanks".

As far as ammo costs... hmmm just make re-arm free... Or you simply can say that your employer pays to rearm you. You just pay the initial cost of adding a weapons ammo in the mechlab.

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

1st of all, i won´t vote sh** in this poll... since you make very clear that YOU did the WORK for PGI and have THE perfect solution, which, sry to say it directly, is bulls... you made a suggestion, fine..but to declare it as the non-plus-ultra solution is poor...

2. most people i know - those who are freeplayers - had and have no problems PLAYING the game... that tells me, that those suiciders, afkers what ever are just playing the lazy a$$ way... btw, no system in the world would prevend them to do that, as long as they can get ANY benefit out of it without the need to actually stay at the keyboard or put any effort into their progression...

many games are proof for that... as soon as you get at least a small chance to earn a win-bonus or what not, you will see ppl being afk, if needed with a clamp in the D key...

my suggestion - beware, it might not be the one and only, ultimate super solution - take out win/ loss bonus, raise the assist bonus drastically + additional bonus to those when winning a game...and maybe only give a (much higher) salvage from mechs that you actually damaged...+ bonus if winning^^... you had to work for it, but you still could compensate for the R&R costs, which in my eyes should stay (optimization on R&R are a different story)

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 30 November 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Marj]

I think the suggested fix is a bit simplistic. PGI have already said the new player experience needs work, so work on it! I see advertising all over the place for MWO, but NOTHING has been done to improve the new player experience even though the problems were known in closed beta. The last thing we need to do at this point is to drive new players away.

At the end of the day people shouldn't be playing to grind cbills, they should be playing because the game is fun. If the game isn't fun then it needs to be fixed. Right now, the trial mechs aren't fun. Sure we need a way to deal with griefers, but the very poor initial experience is a far bigger issue.

[Sam Slade]

You know that whole taxation system... I think I'll just avoid it. Oh wait... there's the tax office sending me a bill and reposessing my stuff . Taxation is stupid! I demand free roads and water and hospitals and and and and and....

[Teralitha]

Marj, on 30 November 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I think the suggested fix is a bit simplistic. PGI have already said the new player experience needs work, so work on it! I see advertising all over the place for MWO, but NOTHING has been done to improve the new player experience even though the problems were known in closed beta. The last thing we need to do at this point is to drive new players away.

At the end of the day people shouldn't be playing to grind cbills, they should be playing because the game is fun. If the game isn't fun then it needs to be fixed. Right now, the trial mechs aren't fun. Sure we need a way to deal with griefers, but the very poor initial experience is a far bigger issue.

Marj, everything I suggested in the OP fixes all that stuff. With the exception that the new user experience need to be expanded upon, apart from economy. But the economic and reward system actually can be fixed just that simple.

I really didnt expect people to actually object to solving the suicider/afker/griefer dilema... its a little strange..

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[Teralitha]

Sam Slade, on 30 November 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

You know that whole taxation system... I think I'll just avoid it. Oh wait... there's the tax office sending me a bill and reposessing my stuff . Taxation is stupid! I demand free roads and water and hospitals and and and and and....

Uh yeah... dude, pass me some of those drugs.... your post makes zero sense. Sorry.

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 04:35 AM.

[shabowie]

Poor souls? No they are cheaters and deadbeats ruining the game for other people because they are lazy.

[Znail]

Bluten, on 30 November 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

It'll end when they fix the economy instead of ignoring what's wrong with it. They then made a sticky acknowledging the problem and threatening players but not saying if they're going to actually fix it.

That's a ton of manure. Even the exploiters themselves claim to have made more then enough c-bills to afford any mechs they want. So how could changing the economy matter as they still prefeer suicide over actually playing the game? It's also a very small number of people we are talking about, about 5 or so. It's just that they play so many games each hour. So it's quite a lot quicker to just delete them and then work on fixing the means they used to exploit rather then the other way around.

I would understand it if they warn someone who exploited a few times, but anyone who has done it hundreds of times should be deleted right away, no questions asked.

[Gnuz]

Having had suiciders on one side or the other, or both in 8 out of my last 10 drops I have to conclude that the "problem" is increasing. One, prior to self-destructing his mech, typed in general chat: "Maybe PGI will make it so that actually playing makes more cash than being a botting a**hole" "One can only dream, HF and GL" then killed himself and disconnected. (Yes I have screenshots *shrug*)

Gamers are unselfish? They care about *your* gaming experience? (Well, maybe some of us ;P) In the main though, they're going to take the path of least resistance to their perceived objective, in this case amassing c-bills. If this is the way that's "best"/easiest then that's what they'll do.

Incentivizing preferred behavior rather than flailing around with a ban-hammer strikes me as the way to go, and is, imho, far more likely to be effective.

Punishing the new player base *has* to be a bad idea.

Op has my yes vote. Please fix the system.

[Thorn Hallis]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

That wouldnt change. Every item will still have a use, and a price. They just wont need to be repaired.

Exactly thats my worry. Right now most players (not suicide farmers or bots) either play a cost-effective build or a cost-intensive build with premium. If repair/rearm would be gone, everyone would only go for the cost-intensive 'Mechs to perform as much as they can, means they're will probably be less premium accounts, which means less money for PGI. And in the end its all about the money for PGI.

[JPsi]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Tanking role? are you on drugs? This isnt an RPG sir.... we dont have healers. Every mech is loaded with weapons. no one just "tanks".

As far as ammo costs... hmmm just make re-arm free... Or you simply can say that your employer pays to rearm you. You just pay the initial cost of adding a weapons ammo in the mechlab.

I never said players only tank as such or a specific role that must be adhered to. That being said, quite often in game a player is faced with the choice of attempting to take the enemy teams focus in order to secure a win or saving their own skin and risking the loss. (tanking or baiting in simpler terms)

Your current proposal, places the incentive to not do so when it would lead to a winning situation for the team. Why would players try to win iff theres more profit to be gained by prolonging a fight to get more kills/assists?

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[Teralitha]

Adrienne Vorton, on 30 November 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

1st of all, i won´t vote sh** in this poll... since you make very clear that YOU did the WORK for PGI and have THE perfect solution, which, sry to say it directly, is bulls... you made a suggestion, fine..but to declare it as the non-plus-ultra solution is poor...

2. most people i know - those who are freeplayers - had and have no problems PLAYING the game... that tells me, that those suiciders, afkers what ever are just playing the lazy a$$ way... btw, no system in the world would prevend them to do that, as long as they can get ANY benefit out of it without the need to actually stay at the keyboard or put any effort into their progression...

many games are proof for that... as soon as you get at least a small chance to earn a win-bonus or what not, you will see ppl being afk, if needed with a clamp in the D key...

my suggestion - beware, it might not be the one and only, ultimate super solution - take out win/ loss bonus, raise the assist bonus drastically + additional bonus to those when winning a game...and maybe only give a (much higher) salvage from mechs that you actually damaged...+ bonus if winning^^... you had to work for it, but you still could compensate for the R&R costs, which in my eyes should stay (optimization on R&R are a different story)

1. Sorry you feel that way, but even PGI needs help sometimes.

2. Unless the number of ppl you claim to know who play for free are having no issue with the griefer menace are equal to the majority, then your your friends are in the minority, because its a problem to the majority of players.

3. if you read my suggestion, you would have seen that afkers are also removed from the equation with a forced discon for inactivity. Your never going to get rid of all issues, ever, but this solution will reduce the number exponentially.

4. Why bother to make a flawed system work when you can simply remove it.(R&R) and by removing it you clean up the servers from all kinds of griefing.? its a win win.

Znail, on 30 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

That's a ton of manure. Even the exploiters themselves claim to have made more then enough c-bills to afford any mechs they want. So how could changing the economy matter as they still prefeer suicide over actually playing the game? It's also a very small number of people we are talking about, about 5 or so. It's just that they play so many games each hour. So it's quite a lot quicker to just delete them and then work on fixing the means they used to exploit rather then the other way around.

I would understand it if they warn someone who exploited a few times, but anyone who has done it hundreds of times should be deleted right away, no questions asked.

Ah yes... someone who didnt make the effort to read the suggestion fix in the OP... go read it sir. you will quickly find out that your foot is stuck in your mouth.

[Teralitha]

Thorn Hallis, on 30 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Exactly thats my worry. Right now most players (not suicide farmers or bots) either play a cost-effective build or a cost-intensive build with premium. If repair/rearm would be gone, everyone would only go for the cost-intensive 'Mechs to perform as much as they can, means they're will probably be less premium accounts, which means less money for PGI. And in the end its all about the money for PGI.

I understand your concern here. If PGI were to determine that the grind wasnt slow enough, they could lower the values I listed, but the values I listed, are the same as they are now, minus the win/loss rewards, which generally was more than a R&R bill which win or lose always gave a player a positive balance. The "end" game is all about optimizing your mechs for competitive lvl 8vs8 team play, and those that wish to participate in that without grinding will buy premium, and MC to buy mechs. The buying of MC and premium shouldnt be affected by the removal of RR and win/loss since both pretty much cancel each other out. They can also raise cbill prices on upgrades and equipment, and this doesnt affect the gameplay, only the time it takes to build a optimized mech.

Without RR, and without win/loss reward, no one can suicide to gain any reward. They actually have to contribute to the match in order to get any cbills. The only goal in any match will be simply... to play and win. Doing nothing rewards you with nothing. it is really that simple.

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[JPsi]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

I understand your concern here. If PGI were to determine that the grind wasnt slow enough, they could lower the values I listed, but the values I listed, are the same as they are now, minus the win/loss rewards, which generally was more than a R&R bill which win or lose always gave a player a positive balance. The "end" game is all about optimizing your mechs for competitive lvl 8vs8 team play, and those that wish to participate in that without grinding will buy premium, and MC to buy mechs. The buying of MC and premium shouldnt be affected by the removal of RR and win/loss since both pretty much cancel each other out.

Without RR, and without win/loss reward, no one can suicide to gain any reward. They actually have to contribute to the match in order to get any cbills. The only goal in any match will be simply... to play and win. Doing nothing rewards you with nothing. it is really that simple.

Again my current issue with your proposal is, it doesn't actually provide any real incentive for winning or tactical play. Why would players cap the base when its more profitable to duke it out?(like it or not, its still a tactic). The priority should be winning. As said, sure remove the loss/repairs iff absolutely neccessary, then reduce the value of winning accordingly. Don't remove it entirely, a win should still be worth more than a loss. I even do believe that yes, iff a person tries in game, plays well, they should still get a mild reward for losing. Penalising losing players to prevent suicide farming doesn't help either. Yes, win or loss, people should be able to gain mildly, atm thats what happens. Wins/Losses mildly exceed RR costs. Iff RR is removed it should be reduced, but not removed.

The legit player should not be penalised due to these people. To be blatantly honest, I'd much prefer to see the LoL reward system for matches implemented here. Players still rewarded for losses, more for Wins. Why? It works. It incentivises winning without having the losing player feel as iff they completely wasted their time. That being said, it implements in game reporting, a tribunal system and an honor system along with ELO and the ability to recconnect to matches. Also the inability to start a new match until the current one is finished. <-- that right there would prevent the vast majority of suicide farming.

There are other ways of preventing this behaviour, going to this overly simplistic model causes even further issues. Measuring suicides is simple enough, even codable to prevent payment to suiciders without changing this system. Afkers the same deal applies, they can also be prevented from profiting from matches. The system can be fixed to prevent the wrong behaviour, without causing other issues.

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[Chrithu]

Actualy I agree with the OP. The basic problem with those exploits is the reward system. But I disagree with his alternative. Repair and rearm need to stay. But they need to be tweaked:

No free repair and free rearm. Therefore lower the rearm costs and maybe again the repair costs.

I agree that the basic rewards for win and loss are too high. But they need to stay if repair and rearm stay. So what needs to be done is that the base rewards are adjusted to be just enough to cover the highest possible repair and rearm costs (which would be when your mech dies and is salvaged, you have to repair everything and rearm everything). Maybe make them dependant on your mechclass, since lighter mechs are cheaper to repair than heavier ones.

Then reward anything that helps your team at a higher rate than it is currently done: Damage, Kills, Kill Assists, Spotting, Covering someone else with your AMS, Starting Cap, Capping and Salvage.

With those changes there should be no way to actually make money without doing something for your team. AFK Farming and Suicide Farming would result in no gain or even loss.

The difference between this and Teralitha's approach is that if you come out of a match without damage you also get that base reward that otherwise would cover you R&R costs. This further encourages using teamplay and gives an incentive to win the game.

Edited by Jason Parker, 30 November 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[Rovertoo]

I think that the surest way to stop anyone from suiciding, team killing, or just not participating in the game at all is to just up the reward for damage done substantially. People will do whichever is most lucrative in the game (Huzzah for Capitalism!). Perhaps lower the rewards for winning by a bit to compensate (PGI needs a deep Grind for the MC, right?). I think that if you get a massive amount of money for fighting Mechs, looking at mechs (Info War!) and capturing bases that people will turn to it. I think a time-based multiplyer for bases and Info War would work nicely.

Also, I don't think even suiciders should be punished too harshly. I know I've tested some stupid builds and killed myself with overheating in the first shot, or I've been too slow to get back-into bounds before the timer zeroed. Disconnects can be read as AFKs too, so (With the addition of an option to rejoin the match in progress) I think that the participation in a match will be much higher if you just make killing mechs and supporting your team make up most of the profit, and simply being in the match will yeild little.

EDIT: Also, Team Kills, I forgot to mention. I think that a cbill subtraction multiplyer should be added to any damage done to a team member, and an actual kill should just multiply any number before by, say, two. I've killed and been killed by a team member with just an incredibly poor shot several times. Again, just make helping your team and killing Mechs the greater Money maker than anything AFKing will provide and people will stop doing it. (Hopefully)

Edited by Rovertoo, 30 November 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Teralitha]

JPsi, on 30 November 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Again my current issue with your proposal is, it doesn't actually provide any real incentive for winning or tactical play.

Um cbills isnt an incentive for winning and tactical play? Im confused... You realize that cbills is the incentive for suiciding currently... due to win/loss rewards. Remove win/loss rewards problem solved. You still get cbills for performance - That is your incentive with my proposal. All your concerns are addressed and resolved. Read my proposal in the OP again, you may have overlooked them.

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[JPsi]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

Um cbills isnt an incentive for winning and tactical play? Im confused...

Iff I get more C-Bills for prolonging a fight instead of an early win, what should I do? No I didn't overlook them. Under your current proposal prolonging a fight to get more kills/assists, is far more profitable than an early cap.

It doesn't incentivise performance, it incentivises stat whoring. It provides incentive for a large number of other stupid and petty forms of behaviour.

The most economic way of playing, would be to kill 7 players, then cap. Yes thats still the case now, however the difference between that and other methods of winning currently is minimal. Under your system, Winning via cap is undesirable until 5 players on the opposing team are dead minimum.

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 05:28 AM.