225 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

JPsi, on 30 November 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

So simply put, there are other Models that will remove the incentive for suicide farming/griefing and all the issues you have brought up, without promoting a lot of selfish/griefing behaviour. I'm not against your model, I'm looking for something better.
Your current model does not ONLY do what you said it does, it is not the only difference. It impacts upon those that work with the team but don't get such high stats.

mmhmm yes yes, very interesting, so which suggested model besides mine, REMOVES the incentive for suiciding plus all other forms of griefing?

You sure sound like your against my model.

Ok lets address those on a team that you believe are contributing in ways that significantly affect the outcome, but there are no variables to gauge their contribution... Lets use the light scout for example... that one that goes to enemy base to cause the enemy to split up their forces in order to defend the base, and gives their team the advantage to win. Yes... what about that guy... I know he exists, because I do it myself, and I do realize that his contribution has no specific performance reward other than winning and salvage. hmmm how to gauge something like that... the problem with using a win/loss reward is that the whole team would get the win reward so that guy still isnt getting a performance reward specific to his contribution.

You know this reminds me of some league of legends scenarios, where the player who backdoors the enemy nexus while the rest of his team spends the whole match just looking for teamfights and gets yellled at the whole time for not helping in teamfights. While not actually engaging in the battles, their actions brought about a win, but there are no statistics to prove it.

Unless PGI somehow created code that could track such things.... there really is nothing you can do. Its not easily tracked.
However... If the same jenner were to harrass enemys on a flank by attacking, doing damage, and even killing the enemy mechs on a flank, or enemy support mechs, he gets rewarded for that. But, just skillful positioning alone is not tracked in a battle by itself in any way so its not possible to reward it specifically.

So... in conclusion, both the current model, and the model I am suggesting have that same issue. As it stands, there is no way to track it. Apart from that, my model is still a drastic improvement that totally shuts down almost all forms of griefing.

So you decide.

[JPsi]

Yes, both still have that issue. It is hard to reward all those little very hard to track decisions. Thats why there should be the win bonus, it doesn't matter which little decision specifically happened that led to the win. It matters that it happened.

The key difference is, where is the incentive? The incentive is to make those little decisions under the current system just by that 20k bonus for winning. They still get rewarded, more so than iff they had just gone for the extra kills/measurable indicators of performance. Just like in LoL, that player that backdoored gets rewarded via the overall win bonus, it didn't matter what his team thought. Now, iff it was more profitable for that player to not backdoor the nexus, but go get involved in those teamfights for the kills and assists, then what should he have done? Its for those reasons that LoL sticks to not paying IP for kills/assists. Only the win/loss counts towards the reward.

Now, as for which model, the model proposed by another person in this thread (the one you've accused of being an alt of mine) does appear to do so. It also provides some reasonable reward for such behaviour. There are points I like/dislike about it, but as far as constructivity goes, look at that. It does appear to do the same by removing any reason to grief.

Now, a win bonus by itself, in my opinion doesn't encourage any of the griefing. Players that suicide farm are very rarely going to win a match (ignoring the fact that it can be countered with a simple you suicide or afk and dont get the reward anyway condition). The probabilities are just against it, it makes it inviable as such, time taken to suicide farm getting a win are much higher than playing and working towards it.

Edited by JPsi, 30 November 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Chrithu]

Well if the choice was either stick to the current system and deal with exploiters and griefers just by banning or just go ahead and change the system only by taking away the base rewards along with R&R, then the choice is clearly to stick with the current system as taking away base rewards and R&R without changing the rest of the system to make up for it will likely cost us more players than all the exploiting and griefing.

Honestly, by now the list of changes I put together a page ago covers pretty much every even remotely possible way of contributing to your team in a meaningful way and does not include awfully much new things to be added to the things that need to be tracked. So I don't see right away why it could not be done even if it takes some time.

I mean the code for tracking if you're standing on the cap already is there. Seeing if you're the first guy to do it is a simple IF THEN checkback. So is the code for a target receiving damage. Adding all that stuff really isn't a very hard and time consuming task and surely could be done within a few weeks including all the internal testing and tweaking.

[GalaxyBluestar]

okay okay here's a solution suggestion.

the majority are suiciders and there's only one way to do it, by overheating to destruction. now if you could implement that if you blow yourself up by overheat you get 0 reward at the end. how many of us have overheated to explosion during a fight? i've never seen anyone stupid enough to do it. so if this were to be done the suicide farmers couldn't get anything and the silly people will be punished enough not to do it again. there would be a week of suiciders still ruining matches but when they learn many will act as teams again or simply not play at all, which would be goodriddence then.

case closed.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 30 November 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[Chrithu]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 November 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

okay okay here's a solution suggestion.

the majority are suiciders and there's only one way to do it, by overheating to destruction. now if you could implement that if you blow yourself up by overheat you get 0 reward at the end. how many of us have overheated to explosion during a fight? i've never seen anyone stupid enough to do it. so if this were to be done the suicide farmers couldn't get anything and the silly people will be punished enough not to do it again.

case closed.

*reopens case*
Remove hitting LMB and override button from bot/macro.
Replace it with move forward.

Running ahead into the enmy works just as well as suiciding. Takes at most 2 minutes more than the suicide version. As long as there is any way to make money without actively doing something of use that will be exploited.

Edit: or even better: replace with move backwards and run out of bounds.

So again: Don't do it step by step as the bots evolve. Just finally fix the system as a whole. Emphasizing the reward structure on performance is not only needed to fight exploiting the base rewards structure but also to further encourage teamplay and organization especially in PUGs.

Edited by Jason Parker, 30 November 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[Shiney]

Ban suicide farmers. Sure if your new and die once or twice early in a game because you're getting used to piloting, otherwise BAN BAN BAN BAN. We are sick of them, it's grieving everybody except for the 1-2 whiners who want to cheat or not pay a 'few' bucks to support the game. I've payed $170 now, I don't want them.

[Hellen Wheels]

By the same token, I've paid $170 just like you, and I'll play the game the way I damn well please, suicide or not.

When PGI sells you a private server, THEN you can make the rules.

=H=

[Ricama]

Simple fix for dcers is to not only let but force you back into the match when you reconnect. People who crashed get to play and farmers can't play another mech after hitting alt-f4.

[Uyama Kurita]

I have a better solution. For every proven case of exploiter, give them a warning. Hell, even give them 3 strikes.

Once they prove they will continue their abuse, WIPE their c-bills and all mechs and equipment they have purchased. All of it.

The penalty will then fit the crime, and provide the exploiters with clear notice that they cannot benefit from exploitation.

[Shiney]

Hellen Wheels, on 30 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

By the same token, I've paid $170 just like you, and I'll play the game the way I damn well please, suicide or not.

When PGI sells you a private server, THEN you can make the rules.

=H=

Right so what are you saying, you make no point other than saying play as you want to?

[Roadbuster]

People will always try to abuse a system to their advantage no matter how you reward them.
If they can make more CB by just letting a bot run the whole day than playing a few hours, they will do it.

This requires some sort of punishment or a system to prevent such behavior.

I agree that the rewards should be based more on the actual performance of a player though.

My idea would be a base reward depending on the tonnage of your mech, just enough to get repairs done (trial mechs excluded), and make the majority of the rewards performance based.

[elbloom]

Ricama, on 30 November 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Simple fix for dcers is to not only let but force you back into the match when you reconnect. People who crashed get to play and farmers can't play another mech after hitting alt-f4.

this. just have them spectate the rest of the match, fixes suiciders and disconnecters and farmers generally. at least they can´t farm a new match every minute as of now.
This won´t disturb the average bad mech pilot as they usually like to spectate

Edited by elbloom, 01 December 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[Tarman]

Cole Allard, on 30 November 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

And...to make it 100%...sure...you understood.

Because I get the feeling, you people see this as a gentleman-like-crime (ahahaha, funny look, I get money for exploding, hahahaa)

Guys...dont make me lose faith please...do you really not care at all what the other 7 people in your team are thinking/doing/having fun or not ?

Fixing the economy goes a long way to getting rid of the purely lazy, who will gain nothing by it instead of the current pile of cash received for being a burden to your fellow player. If there's no way to make money being lazy it won't happen for that reason at all. Only true griefers who are here to ruin peoples' day will still be doing stupid crap, and they'll be easier to spot without a screen of lazy farmers.

Or we could do it the Batman way and beat each one up with our bare hands after we hunt them down one by one. Batman would do a better job if he used his Bruce Wayne money to clean up the tenements and crime areas instead of personally punching every mugger in the city.

[Teralitha]

All of you argueing that win reward should stay to reward the team are forgetting 2 things.

1. repair/rearm cancels out a win reward(unless like the exploiter you turn it off and suicide) +1 and -1, = 0 Remove the +1, and the - 1 and you still = 0

2. the winning team get salvage. So techinally the winning team is getting rewarded twice.And if you noticed, in my solution I raised the amount of salvage by 0.5% than the current amount.

Number 1. allows exlpoitation( and is canceled out by repair/rearm anyway which in itself makes it a pointless reward feature)
number 2. (salvage) does not reward exploitation and does reward better performance by the team as a whole. The amount of salvage you get is already the measure of the "teams" performance.

Read this over and over again til you get it.

Then tell me whats wrong with my solution. because nothing is wrong with it. Yall are just missing the point and arguging over things that are already accounted for.

Edited by Teralitha, 01 December 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[Teralitha]

As an aside, let me throw this one out at yas.. Anyone remember ever paying a fee to re-arm and repair your mechs when playing tabletop? If that was even in TT, did anyone playing bother to calculate how much it cost to repair every little thing?

Or did you simply replace the destroyed componants with salvaged ones or just bought new ones? Did you ever count how much ammo you used and spent your cbills to replace the ammo?

The few times I played TT, none of that was ever done.

And for that matter, who remembers losing a battle in TT and getting their mech put back in the stable? No u had to buy a new mech. or re-roll a new character because that one died.

Edited by Teralitha, 01 December 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

Garrand, on 30 November 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

How many times are you going to edit that post btw?

Based on other threads by the same OP, several times a day as people blow gaping holes in the flawed appeasement logic about how all the griefers should be given a free pass since it's not their fault they lie awake nights looking for Easy Buttons.

[Teralitha]

Will there be any more short sighted or flawed detractions? Or is everyone finally on the same page and we can finally get this done to stop the griefer menace.

[JPsi]

You are incorrect on both thoste points. I've already pointed that out, but you may have missed it.

Repair/Rearm does not cancel Win. It at most cancels a loss. A win only reward, even one as small as 20K doesn't really allow for suiciders. 2 reasons for that. A) How often does a team with a suicider win? B ) It can be easily coded so that the suicider gains 0 gold for winning. Iff its more work to suicide farm than it is to play, people will play.

Salvage also forces that same issue I've brought up multiple times already. Why win early when you miss out on more salvage? It promotes that scenario of deliberately prolonging games instead of winning. Its also an unclear measure of performance. Salvage is more dependant on the enemy teams ability to make those nice shots difficult, than it is on your ability to make them.

No, I didn't fail to account or miss over your statements. I've read them very carefully, I just disagree and think you need to work on it. The idea at heart is great, it just needs a lot of adjustment.

Edited by JPsi, 01 December 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

People who are script suiciding deserve to be banned. If they want to bypass their first mech grind then they should buy MC.

[Particle Man]

So should i bother to read past the first 2 or 3 posts in the thread or is this just a thinly veiled post about someone mad that their exploit is being watched?