128 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Irreverence, on 03 December 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Anyone here try to rearm/repair an Atlas D-DC after a loss? You actually go negative.. I'm sure the same can be said for missile boats. If you have a premium bonus it's bearable, but not in the other case. If they do remove the 75% rearm, they need to fix something else.

A thoroughly beaten up CN9-D loses you money as well, what with all the tier-2 tech on it. As others have said, the economy isn't finished, there's still income to come with CW, so look at the 75% R&R as a we-don't-want-people-to-go-broke-immediately measure.

[GODzillaGSPB]

AP514, on 03 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

well then im going LRM BOATING

And else you'd go LASER BOATING.

[Irreverence]

stjobe, on 03 December 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

A thoroughly beaten up CN9-D loses you money as well, what with all the tier-2 tech on it. As others have said, the economy isn't finished, there's still income to come with CW, so look at the 75% R&R as a we-don't-want-people-to-go-broke-immediately measure.

I don't have a problem with it. In the games current state, I'm glad we have it.

[icey]

I hope they put rearm costs back in soon. Streaks and Artemis LRM are a little too good to be able to shoot 1000+ of them per round and not pay a dime - we'll see what ECM does to them though.

beniliusbob, on 03 December 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Also, apparently if you repair individual body parts instead of your whole mech, it is free.

I have not verified this because I'm lazy and I just R&R everything automatically.

this doesn't seem to actually work - the structure cost is always cheap no matter which method you use, but the armour cost is a little bugged when you do this - it'll quote you zero for the repair cost, but if you look at how many c-bills it actually deducts, you pay pretty much the same cost as if you used 'repair all' and selected armour only

you should definitely turn autorepair off, as item repair and ammo scrimping will save you upwards of 20k most games

Taryys, on 03 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

True. People are abusing the system.
It needs to be changed so that they only get the 75% when you pay for the repairs.
They also need to get the % dmg on items added into the game too .

I think this actually works, with the exception of dying to engine crits - it certainly feels like my weapons die to crits pretty fast once my armour is stripped when i dont repair them - manually repairing crit magnets like gauss and big autocannons is a good idea - smaller items like single slot lasers and ammo (as long as you use case - not so big a deal)

[wanderer]

AP514, on 03 December 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

thats so much bull....it is a CHEAT

It's not a cheat when the devs deliberately put it into the game.

Welfare LRM ammo is pretty much how anyone can afford to keep the things functional at this point, since LRMs are not only incredible ammo hogs, they're the most expensive ammo-per-ton in the game.

By comparison, Gauss ammo is something like 2000 Cbills/ton...and LRM ammo is 30,000. Whee! I can reload my Gauss with 4 tons of ammo and it's not even a third of the cost of 1 ton of LRMs! And that's even before Artemis. Artemis LRM ammo? 60,000 Cbills/ton.

Four tons of ammo expended being enough to eat your entire earnings for a match. Yeah, something wrong there.

[Bounty Dogg]

I wont call it a cheat, it is intended to be there. Its the way the designed it.

That being said, it IS too easily gamed/exploited.

Simple fix is to drop the free rerack rate from 75%......down to 40%. You can still get away with free missiles, and even be (somewhat) viable, but NOW you actually run into a penalty for not fully reracking: The real possibility of running out of missiles long before the match is over.

That would fix the problem of the bad game mechanic AND the exploitation issue all at once.....and the only thing that would need to be changed, is the value of the free repair, making it cost efficient.

Edited to make sure its known I meant cost efficient in a Dev time/manpower standpoint.

Edited by Bounty Dogg, 03 December 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[EyeOne]

AP514, on 03 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

well then im going LRM BOATING

Well, if your goal is to earn as much money as possible go ahead. However, actually playing the game the way you enjoy it is more fun.

[Iron]

found anouther cheat. Load up with all laser weapons and you dont have to rearm your mech.. You get the same amout of free cbills as the free 75 percent cheat.This is even a better cheat since I dont have to waste tonage on extra ammo.

[BFalcon]

Iron, on 03 December 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

found anouther cheat. Load up with all laser weapons and you dont have to rearm your mech.. You get the same amout of free cbills as the free 75 percent cheat.This is even a better cheat since I dont have to waste tonage on extra ammo.

Except you might find your repair bills are higher, since (I think) lasers cost more to repair..

I agree that it was a stop-gap to help people, but some are abusing the system, as usual. Mind you, they're crippling themselves in-game, so hey... if they want to waste tonnage on empty ammo bins, let them.

[Joseph Mallan]

AP514, on 03 December 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

I saw this online some place and it is TRUE....

Players get free REPAIRS and AMMO..How.............. they run a LRM boat and thenafter the game in the MEK LAB they do not put in any AMMO knowing the game will give you %75 at launch.
So a player can use Artimeis LRM's wich can cost up to 70-80K per round to restock and get them for FREE....players add a few extra tons of ammo inthe build knowing thay will never use the max amount.
So when %75 is loaded for FREE they are at normal useage..


So players are gaining an EXTRA 70K per GAME......

FIX it ! ! !

AP514

Knowing this was in place, I have always paid for my Rearming. See mechs were designed with normally 2 tons of ammo per weapon because AMMO IS EXPENSIVE!!! Players are ignoring this because the DEVs are handing them easy mode! See Lone Wolves need to pay 100% for R&R. House units shout Pay 75%(ish) because of volume discount. and Mercs depending on reputation should pay between 100%-75%.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 December 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Helbourne]

Taryys, on 03 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

True. People are abusing the system.
It needs to be changed so that they only get the 75% when you pay for the repairs.
They also need to get the % dmg on items added into the game too .

I agree, make it so you only get the 75% when you spend the CBills for rearm and repair. Those people are just exploiting the current system. Using the fine line of the 'law' to there advantage.

[Chrithu]

The whole problem is the base reward being independent of mech weight and loadout. It would make a lot more sense if the base rewards were aimed at covering your expenses. What I mean is that the base reward for winning should be exactly the amount of CBills needed to fully Repair and Rearm the particular Mechvariant you just used. In that case it would not matter wether you go heavy on ballistics or on lasers in the same Mech (say a hunchback). If you use up all ammo but come out at the same damage you would get the same out of the base reward.

[BFalcon]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Knowing this was in place, I have always paid for my Rearming. See mechs were designed with normally 2 tons of ammo per weapon because AMMO IS EXPENSIVE!!! Players are ignoring this because the DEVs are handing them easy mode! See Lone Wolves need to pay 100% for R&R. House units shout Pay 75%9ish) because of volume discount. and Mercs depending on reputation should pay between 100%-75%.

Fully agree with this, tbh...

This is the reason why stock mechs only carry a couple of tons of ammo, guys...

One thing- I think we need to stick with the current system for now, let them bring in the House Units and so on and let's see how things go from there.

[buckX]

Comassion, on 03 December 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Why not reduce the cost of ammo by 75% and make you pay for it all the time?

Because then people would stop using those weapons, because they'd be unaffordable. PGI scaled the economy down to 3% in terms of salvage, and made rewards and repairs match that. Ammo prices did not change along with this, so 25% would still be way too much.

wanderer, on 03 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

It's not a cheat when the devs deliberately put it into the game.

Welfare LRM ammo is pretty much how anyone can afford to keep the things functional at this point, since LRMs are not only incredible ammo hogs, they're the most expensive ammo-per-ton in the game.

By comparison, Gauss ammo is something like 2000 Cbills/ton...and LRM ammo is 30,000. Whee! I can reload my Gauss with 4 tons of ammo and it's not even a third of the cost of 1 ton of LRMs! And that's even before Artemis. Artemis LRM ammo? 60,000 Cbills/ton.

Four tons of ammo expended being enough to eat your entire earnings for a match. Yeah, something wrong there.

LRM ammo is certainly expensive, but streak ammo runs 54k/ton. Granted, Artemis costs more, but it's my understanding that the nerf made the tonnage for Artemis not worth it anyway.

Gauss costs more than you think, at 20k/ton, but the smaller ballistics get, the more bizarrely cheap the ammo is. AC20 is 10k/ton, AC10 is 6k/ton, AC5 is 4500/ton (9k for ultra), and AC2 is 975/ton. IMO, AC2 is in the right spot, and the others should be brought into line.

Edited by buckX, 03 December 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[BFalcon]

Jason Parker, on 03 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The whole problem is the base reward being independent of mech weight and loadout. It would make a lot more sense if the base rewards were aimed at covering your expenses. What I mean is that the base reward for winning should be exactly the amount of CBills needed to fully Repair and Rearm the particular Mechvariant you just used. In that case it would not matter wether you go heavy on ballistics or on lasers in the same Mech (say a hunchback). If you use up all ammo but come out at the same damage you would get the same out of the base reward.

Trouble there, is that nobody would pilot a Light - why bother when you get just as much for piloting a Medium and get to have more fun... and they can take more risks than a heavier mech pilot (especially when collisions are back in). Better to let the cash stay the same - after all, heavier mechs are also getting kill and assist bonuses too (probably more Kills than the lighter mechs, tbh).

[Armorpiercer M82]

im running elite 4/4, D-DC without rearm.
win = 100k+
loose = 30-40k+

my full rearm will cost me +47k every round.
and btw, im not using 75% free. currently it shows 79%, or 81% free (if i put off-put on ,my AMS doubleammo.)

[stjobe]

Irreverence, on 03 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with it. In the games current state, I'm glad we have it.

I didn't mean to imply that you did, I was just using your post as a starting point for my own example with the CN9-D.

The economy has changed dramatically through closed beta; at one time we got 1 million win *or* lose - just so we could test out some of the more expensive stuff. Another time they reset everything *but* C-bills, and gave everyone half a million GXP (IIRC). The R&R freebies are temporary, once we get all income in place we won't get anything for free any more.

But that will be after CW is in place. Until then, enjoy your 75% R&R discount.

Edited by stjobe, 03 December 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[Mercules]

Child3k, on 03 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

As long as there's no complete overhaul of the whole reward-system, it is good as it is. As a non-premium player you wouldn't be able to field and maintain a more advanced mech without the free rearm. So - if PGI would eliminate the free rearm from the game, the whole thing would - to a certain extent - become p2w (as much as I hate that term) because only premium-player would be able to field superior tech.

You can actually field and maintain a more advanced mech without resorting to exploiting what is there to help those who can't seem to play. I can run mechs with more expensive gear in them and still make money. all skipping Repair/Rearm would do for me would mean I would make a bit more money... and that is debatable as I might perform worse as I would have to take an extra ton of ammo(and skimp elsewhere) or run out of ammo that much quicker.

Losses hurt a bit and I can go negative in earnings for that match, but I have yet to sit down for an evening and not come away about a million wealthier in an evening(about 2-3 hours play max) and I fully repair and rearm.


Also, while the system is functioning "As Intended" it is NOT being used as intended. From my understanding it is in there as an emergency measure in case someone actually CAN'T afford to repair and rearm. In the case that they are broke and can't repair they do not have to drop in their mech with completely broken sections or no way to shoot. Instead people are using it to make additional resources by letting the system foot the bill for their overly expensive ammo.

How do you make money others?

1. Don't launch LRMs without having a good target. I have a mech with a BAP and the Ext. Range module in it. I can light up targets at 1,200 meters. I frequently lock onto them and then suddenly a bunch of "Spotting" xp pops up on my screen. I see missiles fly past me from people behind me and look at the target I haven't launched on yet because it is over 1k meteres for me. Why are people firing on targets out of range?

Sometimes when I am running a light mech I'll light up a target and get spotting xp but I know there is no possible way LRMs are hitting that target, it is behind a building from the angle of where my team is. I'll even watch an endless stream of missiles from a mech exploding on a building side and shake my head. If your little reticle isn't flashing red... you are not hitting them. I'll also watch mechs launch on someone who pops up over a ridge and is already moving backwards away from it. You WILL lose lock if there isn't someone else holding it and will be wasting missiles.

2. Don't use Artemis unless you can afford it. If you can't seem to win even with Artemis... you will go broke. Keep regular LRMs on your mech they are not THAT much less efficient and cost a lot less.

3. Have a cheap backup mech. Seriously. You can make decent money even if you are destroyed in a mech with fairly normal systems. 6 Medium Lasers and a standard engine are a lot less expensive to repair than a couple Gauss systems or refilling an Artemis LRM boat back up with ammo after an ammo crit. There are several chasis that can perform well without the fancy and expensive systems.

[BigTaeng]

Taryys, on 03 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

It needs to be changed so that they only get the 75% when you pay for the repairs.

stjobe, on 03 December 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

"...when you *don't* pay for restocking ammunition" you mean?

No, he means you should only get the 75% free ammo when you actually pay to Rearm, otherwise you should get nothing.

[AP514]

So,you say why not just build a LAZER Boat ? well I can build a AWS LRMBOAT and have 4 LRM's w/ 1600 rounds of ammo do 1200pts damage and rake in the CBILLS...ok I rearm at %75(FREE) so now I only have 1200 rounds...still will do about 1000-1100pts damage. that will Bring in 180-200K free and clear...NO founders or PREM account


AP514

Edited by AP514, 03 December 2012 - 07:57 AM.