425 replies to this topic

[Eiji Sixfinger]

Understand which customers?

They understand me fine.
I was introduced to the game during OB by a friend.
I am familiar with the lore.
I saw that my options were 4 different weight classes of trial mechs.
I told my friend that I felt it would be wise to get used to piloting and aiming, so I wanted something playable.
He suggested the medium, so I played mostly the medium and some of the heavy trial.
I learned to pilot, which torso twisting, learned to manage my heat, and to hold lasers on a moving target.
By the time I thought I'd improved on these skills to a satisfactory level (not mastered), I had enough c-bills to buy my own mech that I had decided fitted me best for a first mech.

They can't cater to everyone. I felt the experience was very fair, and the enjoyment is out of playing the matches. If you don't enjoy that, you'll never enjoy the trials, or anything else.

Could they tweak it (rewards, builds, whatever), sure. Is it OMG it's such a turnoff? No.

[Wizywig]

The trial mechs are terrible:

They generate WAY more heat than they can sink.

No self-respecting small mech pilot will put enough heat for a single/dual alpha followed by no shots. Maybe 4 is a good start.

No self-respecting awesome pilot would pack 3 ER PPCS and some other weapons. And only do 62kph. Thats like "shoot twice, shut down, wait a while" because you can't exactly outrun bullets while you wait on heat.

How do I build just the right amount of weapons and heat sinking so that I can shoot every single time I need to shoot in battle. Because lining up a good shot only to be overheated is bad, not being able to line up a shot is bad, instead you want a balance between the two -- lota speed means u shoot less but you alpha someone in hit-n-run tactics. Slow speeds means you must shoot constantly with lots of damage to encourage people to back the hell off or die. If you have a combination of "I can alpha you for a ton of damage, and then I stand still and wait" it means you miss once, you wait, you die.

And note: New players will be the poor pilots who will miss frequently. They will be the players who don't manage heat effectively. They will not know how to torso twist properly. Arguably my custom mechs are 10x easier to play than stock mechs (and imo more effective), yet the new players who NEED TO LEARN THE GAME get to instead pilot some of the hardest to pilot mechs out there.

GRANTED custom mechs can be customized to fit VERY specific roles in a battle, vs trial mechs seem to be a bit of jack-of-all-trades master-of-none setups. And honestly, a small mech that goes below 130kph is for an advanced player.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sevaradan, on 03 December 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

how much less of a grind do you want? everyone to be given 1 of each variant at account creation?

Honestly, I have reason to question why this wouldn't be a good thing. TF2 may not have as many different "classes" as MWO, but you can play any roll you want with at least basic equipment (not to mention with achievements, you can at least unlock some stuff so you can customize to a degree).
If your counter is that they need to make money of selling mechs or someway to force people to spend money rather than amassing C-Bills like in CB, there is a simple solution: balance weapons. Rather than creating some stupid equipment tiered system where each step in the tier gives you "better" equipment, you should be just paying for more toys to play with. That removes the feel of grinding, because technically, you could be combat effective with just the basics. Sooner or later, people are going to try out the other equipment even if they don't increase your effectiveness so to speak, just the roles you can play. They do this because it is readily available content, and they will want to try it out, at some point.

The idea that their pay-model/trial system is the only way this can be done would be a farce of a statement, and the assumption that this is the best way would also be a highly subjective statement, especially when you get into the connotations of the word grind and the effect it can have on a user's experience.

Edited by majora incarnate, 03 December 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Taizan]

John Norad, on 03 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

At any rate trying to understand your customers and to build a game they enjoy playing tends to be a bit smarter, and more successful. Otherwise you're relying on your luck.

That is why they are introducing the MM phase 3. so that people new to the game will not be pitted against old warhounds, with hypertuned mechs, as mentioned in the OP.
The game obviously still is in the making and what you are mentioning is the goal PGI is striving to achieve.I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that the system as we have it now is set in stone and never will be improved.

[Kristov Kerensky]

For the OP...NICE quoting out of context! Excellent work there showing your personal point of view there!

As for what Russ ACTUALLY said..yes, there are some extremely good stock configs. And that boys and girls is what the man said, there are some extremely good stock configs..he didn't say that the Trial Mechs are extremely good at all.

Now, that said, some of us have had no issues using the Trial Mechs, it simply takes understanding how the Mech works and working within that instead of trying to make it do something it's clearly not designed to do. Of course, you folks complaining about them also make other claims about things like weapons and heat and how they are all messed up because you can't make the game do what you want like you could in MW4. Well..personally...I would suggest you man up and learn how the game works because it's evidently NOT going to work as you demand despite the temper tantrums.

[LaserAngel]

Eiji Sixfinger, on 03 December 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Understand which customers?

They understand me fine.
I was introduced to the game during OB by a friend.
I am familiar with the lore.
I saw that my options were 4 different weight classes of trial mechs.
I told my friend that I felt it would be wise to get used to piloting and aiming, so I wanted something playable.
He suggested the medium, so I played mostly the medium and some of the heavy trial.
I learned to pilot, which torso twisting, learned to manage my heat, and to hold lasers on a moving target.
By the time I thought I'd improved on these skills to a satisfactory level (not mastered), I had enough c-bills to buy my own mech that I had decided fitted me best for a first mech.

They can't cater to everyone. I felt the experience was very fair, and the enjoyment is out of playing the matches. If you don't enjoy that, you'll never enjoy the trials, or anything else.

Could they tweak it (rewards, builds, whatever), sure. Is it OMG it's such a turnoff? No.

And that sounds a lot like the experience my friends had when I shepherded them just after Open Beta. They're a little burned out right now but I expect them to be back once Desert map and Conquest mode rolls around.

[Parnage Winters]

I must be insane, I think the trial mechs so far have been pretty solid. Or to say generally you have one or two that are just fine to pilot. I mean some have been traps like that Raven awhile back, and the Atlas K but to say they are terrible and a coffin is just seems overly dramatic to me.

[QuantumButler]

Parnage, on 03 December 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

I must be insane, I think the trial mechs so far have been pretty solid. Or to say generally you have one or two that are just fine to pilot. I mean some have been traps like that Raven awhile back, and the Atlas K but to say they are terrible and a coffin is just seems overly dramatic to me.

To say they're "pretty solid" seems pretty overly dramatic to me, too, but hey.

[Sifright]

QuantumButler, on 03 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

To say they're "pretty solid" seems pretty overly dramatic to me, too, but hey.

I think he forgot the rest of that phrase if you ask me.

Pretty solid.... waste of time.

[Tempered]

I played a trial jenner over the weekend. Despite the horrible heat problems, I was able to make at least one kill per match. Two kills on a couple of occasions. But it took every single trick I've ever learned while piloting jenners since closed beta. I couldn't imagine a beginner living long enough in one to learn anything.

[Vulix]

themittani.com is run by people who sit on their *** to blog and complain about video games all day

[QuantumButler]

Vulix, on 03 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

themittani.com is run by people who sit on their *** to blog and complain about video games all day

...And that makes it unlike these forums how?

[Paramemetic]

The problem with trial mechs is they aren't something that demonstrate the good virtues of the game. You try a trial mech and get pubstomped immediately. Nothing you do in a trial mech can make heat management viable. You don't learn anything about how builds effect heat management because you can't make it "yours." They are generally decent, but the experience is that of a long grind to afford a "real" mech, taking even longer than usual because you earn less. The model appears to be more about infuriating people enough to shortcut to buying a good mech with MC, but in fact likely makes people go "this game is bad, I was going to buy MC but now I'm not sure" and then they get cut down ruthlessly by noble Tetatae warriors and that's that, no money for PGI, no fun for anyone.

The main problem is that trial mechs just don't show off the best parts of the game. They aren't particularly good robots as they are generally all "jack of all trade" builds that don't do anything well and especially don't manage heat. They don't go fast, they don't do brawling, they don't do range support well. Some of them can snipe or whatever, but they aren't ideal at it. But the worst part about it is they can't be customized at all. The real point, the real draw of this game versus any other game is that you can design a mech within limitations to really make it your own. Someone who is casually trying this game because they saw an ad may or may not be invested in BT as a thing, but only true BT fans (or people playing with groups) are going to stick around to learn more about the game beyond "I hit launch and get killed by purple guys who make fun of me. I do an alpha strike and overheat instantly and am dead. This game is lame."


I propose as a solution that everyone should get a beginning choice of a mech like a founder. Not a founder's mech, but a mech with limited customizability which could be designated as a "beginner" mech or something. Let them switch, say, weapons, ammo, and heat sinks but they can't change the engine or move armor, and they can't do upgrades like FF or ES. They earn MXP in it but it can only ever finish Basic, and doesn't count towards their three units of the type. They earn GXP as usual. They can even be world-immersive by making excuses as to why you can't do these things, like "this is a rental 'mech, you can customize it a little but it's not your place to mess with the engine." Maybe they earn the same amount of C-Bills as a trial mech, or maybe they earn the same C-Bills as a regular mech but they have to pay a 20% rental fee.

This way they have a mech that is "theirs" but they are encouraged to get another mech. They can fool with it as much as they want and really learn the game. They can learn about how heat sinks work, and how you can make heat management a thing because frankly that's a huge thing that I definitely didn't understand when I was in trial mechs because I had no idea what the builds looks like, just "it has these guns and goes this speed and everyone says it blows." They can learn about how things they do in the mech lab really do affect gameplay, without being forced to have The Worst Robot.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Tempered, on 03 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I played a trial jenner over the weekend. Despite the horrible heat problems, I was able to make at least one kill per match. Two kills on a couple of occasions. But it took every single trick I've ever learned while piloting jenners since closed beta. I couldn't imagine a beginner living long enough in one to learn anything.

That's because you can't imagine a beginner coming into the game without the expectations from the previous MW games, so they think they know what they are doing and how everything should work...much like many of the people I see on these forums complaining about how the game doesn't work right.

When DHS were first dropped in and we determined real quick that they only did 1.4 instead of 2x, I told my fellow Rats that that was NOT a bug, it was NOT a mistake, the post that was made about 'we missed that, our bad' was total bs. no one missed that at PGI, it was working exactly as intended...that was just a CYA post and nothing would be changed in regards to heat sinks, they work exactly as PGI wants them to for balance reasons. Guess what...

Heat is actually just about perfect currently IMO and I think PGI thinks so as well. It's actually a real factor in game play, not just an annoying warning that happens all the time. Do I really LIKE that I can't fire 3 ERPPCs repeatedly until my target is dead and not worry about the heat? Yes actually, I do like that, it makes me think and make my shots count, especially my alphas. Seems a lot of you don't like that, you want to play CoD in giant stompy robots..try Hawken maybe?

[Super Mono]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

That's because you can't imagine a beginner coming into the game without the expectations from the previous MW games, so they think they know what they are doing and how everything should work...much like many of the people I see on these forums complaining about how the game doesn't work right.

When DHS were first dropped in and we determined real quick that they only did 1.4 instead of 2x, I told my fellow Rats that that was NOT a bug, it was NOT a mistake, the post that was made about 'we missed that, our bad' was total bs. no one missed that at PGI, it was working exactly as intended...that was just a CYA post and nothing would be changed in regards to heat sinks, they work exactly as PGI wants them to for balance reasons. Guess what...

Heat is actually just about perfect currently IMO and I think PGI thinks so as well. It's actually a real factor in game play, not just an annoying warning that happens all the time. Do I really LIKE that I can't fire 3 ERPPCs repeatedly until my target is dead and not worry about the heat? Yes actually, I do like that, it makes me think and make my shots count, especially my alphas. Seems a lot of you don't like that, you want to play CoD in giant stompy robots..try Hawken maybe?

This is insane. Did you not read any of the dev's comments about how they were concerned that DHS went live in a broken state and none of their testers caught it? You think they'd intentionally lie to make their staff and Q&A dept look incompetent?

[Tempered]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

That's because you can't imagine a beginner coming into the game without the expectations from the previous MW games, so they think they know what they are doing and how everything should work...much like many of the people I see on these forums complaining about how the game doesn't work right.

When DHS were first dropped in and we determined real quick that they only did 1.4 instead of 2x, I told my fellow Rats that that was NOT a bug, it was NOT a mistake, the post that was made about 'we missed that, our bad' was total bs. no one missed that at PGI, it was working exactly as intended...that was just a CYA post and nothing would be changed in regards to heat sinks, they work exactly as PGI wants them to for balance reasons. Guess what...

Heat is actually just about perfect currently IMO and I think PGI thinks so as well. It's actually a real factor in game play, not just an annoying warning that happens all the time. Do I really LIKE that I can't fire 3 ERPPCs repeatedly until my target is dead and not worry about the heat? Yes actually, I do like that, it makes me think and make my shots count, especially my alphas. Seems a lot of you don't like that, you want to play CoD in giant stompy robots..try Hawken maybe?

Yea, die hard hawken player here

No idea what rattled your cage, but you have obviously never tried the trial jenner in its current state. If you like running around in circles for 5 minutes just to shoot two of your medium lasers, then I guess this is the mech for you. Have fun with it. I'll meet you on the field with my trial jenner and we can trade heat management secrets.

[Garrand]

BFalcon, on 03 December 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Hmm... can we get confirmation from a non-Goon source that he actually said this?

They seem to be right about a great many things, if you would pay attention.

[TruePoindexter]

The entire quote discusses how SOME trial mechs are actually good and that the larger issue is matching highly experienced players against complete novice's.

Of course it has immediately been taken out of context and warped into saying that all trials are good and dur dur it's your problem. It's almost as if the people behind modern news agencies came down and worked their magic on our community.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Super Mono, on 03 December 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

This is insane. Did you not read any of the dev's comments about how they were concerned that DHS went live in a broken state and none of their testers caught it? You think they'd intentionally lie to make their staff and Q&A dept look incompetent?

Well...if you honestly think NO ONE caught something we caught within 5 minutes..hmm..I've got this great, once in a lifetime opportunity for you, an investment that will pay back over 100%! Seriously..you fell for that?

Tempered, on 03 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Yea, die hard hawken player here

No idea what rattled your cage, but you have obviously never tried the trial jenner in its current state. If you like running around in circles for 5 minutes just to shoot two of your medium lasers, then I guess this is the mech for you. Have fun with it. I'll meet you on the field with my trial jenner and we can trade heat management secrets.

I have used the Trial Jenner, good little harrasser, just have learn to manage your heat, oddly enough a skill that will come in real handy in the game. Once you learn to manage the heat, it's actually extremely good. Go on, tell me it sucks and that its overheat issues are totally due to bad design or flawed game mechancs, tell me how it can't POSSIBLY be you...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 December 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Heat is actually just about perfect currently IMO and I think PGI thinks so as well. It's actually a real factor in game play, not just an annoying warning that happens all the time. Do I really LIKE that I can't fire 3 ERPPCs repeatedly until my target is dead and not worry about the heat? Yes actually, I do like that, it makes me think and make my shots count, especially my alphas. Seems a lot of you don't like that, you want to play CoD in giant stompy robots..try Hawken maybe?

So because you feel like your shots count, it is perfect..............lolwut
Sorry, even ignoring the supposed 'nerf' Gauss are getting, running 2 Gauss is still better than running 3 ERPPCs. EVERY shot counts, and with 2 Gauss I can fire a lot more than if I went with 3 ERPPCs, and do the exact same amount of damage, not to mention for practically no heat. If ERPPCs were doing the damage of their clan counterparts, then this would be a whole different ballgame. There is absolutely no point to ERPPCs, PPCs are better filler weapons and those are pretty bad.