425 replies to this topic

[MrPenguin]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

6xsrm6 A1

Yeah go call for the nerf bat.

Don't even need to, it makes perfect sense you did over 1k damage with 6 SRM6 with Artemis.
That, and I like using SRM6 as well. (All my mechs have it installed )

So yeah, even less special now.

Edited by MrPenguin, 03 December 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[MrPenguin]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

6xsrm6 A1

Yeah go call for the nerf bat.

actually 3 of them ARE trial mechs they did 5, 4 and 18 damage respectively.

If you can't tell who the trials are then I can't help you.

I've seen customs do zero, they just die before doing anything. Either by getting snipe cored or LRM to death. Concidering you're running a x6 SRM6 A1 build you probably one/two shotted a few yourself.

Edited by MrPenguin, 03 December 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[DoRkZiLLaa]

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

READ: LESS DAMAGE

Read: no conclusive argument against the proposition that stock Mechs are suboptimal. Your 80 ton AWS-9M does 30 damage per alpha. That's not much compared to other builds and you call it "discipline" to reduce it even further? I call that hard to justify.

Sug, on 03 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

"Despite what mr. Bullock said, trials are not fine and they're not fun (because stock configs from TT don't work with 3x heat generation of MWO). "

They don't have 3x heat genneration. Weapons just cycle faster than TT. Just don't fire your weapons as soon as they're ready.

I'm terrible and I can get kills with the trial Awesome. It's called chain fire.

Exactly. Fire discipline.

[Stone Wall]

Scratx, on 03 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Now, as I hinted at before, I recognize at least 3 of those players in your screenshot as Comstar EU regulars. It's not a good example to push your point. I won't name them, but I don't have to. I know who they are and I'm pretty sure they're whom Stone Wall is thinking of.

Please find a better example.

Pretty sure it's the same people.

[Franchi]

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

I've seen customs do zero, they just die before doing anything. Either by getting snipe cored or LRM to death. Concidering you're running a x6 SRM6 A1 build you probably one/two shotted a few yourself.

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

I've seen customs do zero, they just die before doing anything. Either by getting snipe cored or LRM to death. Concidering you're running a x6 SRM6 A1 build you probably one/two shotted a few yourself.

So its fine that a custom can one shot mechs and its fine that a trial mech (9m) will shut down firing only one of its weapons?

[Tennex]

no way

[MrPenguin]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

So its fine that a custom can one shot mechs and its fine that a trial mech (9m) will shut down firing only one of its weapons?

I can do 2 alphas with the 9m before shutting down. If I actually tried and managed heat, I could manage salvoing the 3 ERPPC's in different intervals with out overheating. That being said, they DO generate a lot of heat for not much BANG. Its a bad trade-off until they implement the EMP effect. And honestly, I MUCH prefer either using ballistics or a normal PPC. The 90 min range does very little to hamper me. Still, the 9m is a pretty badly done stock. The 1x is probably my fav trial to the point where I have it on my selected list. Only thing I don't like is only 15 AC/10 rounds. Outside of that, not a bad mech. Not a bad mech at all. Well, I like it anyway.

So yeah, how about we try this again with less hyperbole from your side hmm?

Edited by MrPenguin, 03 December 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Asmosis]

The only issue i have with the trial mechs is they keep putting in light mechs that move <100km/hr in conjunction with a med mech that moves faster. Other than that they are fine, had quite some fun with the awesome trial mech this week.

I used it much the same way as i use a gausscat, headshotting other catapults/awesomes with the extra bonus of ssrm2's to swat light mechs that tried to harrass me. I didnt have the pulse lasers on a weapon group.

Edited by Asmosis, 03 December 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Franchi]

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I can do 2 alphas with the 9m before shutting down. If I actually tried and managed heat, I could manage salvoing the 3 ERPPC's in different intervals with out overheating. That being said, they DO generate a lot of heat for not much BANG. Its a bad trade-off until they implement the EMP effect. And honestly, I MUCH prefer either using ballistics or a normal PPC. The 90 min range does very little to hamper me. Still, the 9m is a pretty badly done stock. The 1x is probably my fav trial to the point where I have it on my selected list. Only thing I don't like is only 15 AC/10 rounds. Outside of that, not a bad mech. Not a bad mech at all. Well, I like it anyway.

So yeah, how about we try this again with less hyperbole from your side hmm?

If the trial awesome fires ONE and only ONE of its er PPC's at its maximum fire rate it shuts down on the 8th shot.

So how about we try again with a little more honesty from your side?

[wanderer]

I look at it this way.

Players learn by imitation and get frustrated when it doesn't work. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey pitches a ragefit when it doesn't work.

Now, when Joe Newbie in his Trial 'Mech tries to trade shot for shot with the other guy and finds himself repeatedly shutting down or delivering pitiful damage vs. his opponents? Frustration ensues.

Trial 'Mechs are lousy training 'Mechs. But they're currently the new player experience, and that's a bad thing. Heck, you could simply put together a decent, low-tech "trainer" for all four weight classes and let people choose them AND allow the Trials as well as we know them as well- and new players would be in a much better place. Sure, they're going to get blown away a lot. But at least they won't get an easy assist from their own 'Mech doing it.

Trials, even in the hands of a veteran are second-rate. Yeah, I can kill people with one. And then run out of ammo. Even the best Trial assault, the LRM/large laser Awesome ran out of LRM ammo in a hurry and was reduced to spamming it's twin large lasers for the majority of the match. Oops. And that was newbie-friendly compared to the heat-hog Atlas-K or the even worse -9M. Neither of these do anything in MWO other than repeatedly punish the pilot for doing more than timidly pushing the fire button now and then as incoming fire constantly scorches it's way through to the XL engine.

[MrPenguin]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

If the trial awesome fires ONE and only ONE of its er PPC's at its maximum fire rate it shuts down on the 8th shot.

So how about we try again with a little more honesty from your side?

Its called cooling down. Learn to do it when you're not shooting stuff. Also, you have other weapons that generate much less heat, use them.
Hell, I could overheat if I kept using both my medium lasers on my commando to. Doesn't mean I'm supposed to use them until I overheat then complain that its not my fault. Thats why I said it doesn't have a good return on its heat. The only reason to go ER is for the lack of minimum, and thats not worth the heat increase. But it needs to have an advantage over PPC outside of being simply better. It needs its own draw backs as well. High heat is suppose to be one, but because it doesn't have much pro's to make up for it, it ends up being a bad choice for any build. Just stick with the PPC's and learn to keep your distance. And even then, with out the PPC's EMP effect theirs not much reason to use them instead of Large lasers.

Heat isn't the problem, the weapons need to be fundamentally tweaked so that they're actually worth using.

Edited by MrPenguin, 03 December 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Franchi]

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Its called cooling down. Learn to do it when you're not shooting stuff. Also, you have other weapons that generate much less heat, use them.
Hell, I could overheat if I kept using both my medium lasers on my commando to. Doesn't mean I'm supposed to use them until I overheat then complain that its not my fault. Thats why I said it doesn't have a good return on its heat. The only reason to go ER is for the lack of minimum, and thats not worth the heat increase. But it needs to have an advantage over PPC outside of being simply better. It needs its own draw backs as well. High heat is suppose to be one, but because it doesn't have much pro's to make up for it, it ends up being a bad choice for any build. Just stick with the PPC's and learn to keep your distance. And even then, with out the PPC's EMP effect theirs not much reason to use them instead of Large lasers.

Heat isn't the problem, the weapons need to be fundamentally tweaked so that they're actually worth using.

Heat is exactly the problem, lets remember that these mechs, the trials specifically, are ported directly from TT. If a mech designed to carry 3 of a weapon (with other weapons as back up) cannot fire one of them at its max ROF without overheating heat is broken.

[SpiralRazor]

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

An Interview with Russ Bullock appeared yesterday on themittani.com: http://themittani.co...eo-russ-bullock Among other things, it contains the following quote, cut down some for brevity: I'm going to quote somebody from another thread here: This is true. Russ, what are you talking about? The first thing to do on any stock Mech, currently, is to remove something and put in more heat sinks. Or switch to DHS on a chassis that should have no need for it. What about the K2 for example? A DHS K2 is an order more effective than stock. Similar situation with the Hunchback, the Swayback, the Jenner, even the missile Catapults. In the interview, you mention the Cataphract 4X. How many people run that variant with the two stock AC5s?! If you play Mechs stock you are putting yourself and your team at the proverbial deliberate disadvantage. So how can you state the exact opposite, that "people [...] are not at a disadvantage because they're in stock BattleMechs" and "a lot of stock variant BattleMechs [are] extremely good" (emphasis mine)? It has been my opinion for a long time that MWO's heat system needs an overhaul. PS: Um yeah, so some people said the Awesome AWS-9M doesn't suck. I took some measurements, on Forest Colony Snow: Firing the PPCs brings you to ~70% heat and it takes ~15s to cool back to 0. The AC/20 on a stock HBK-4G takes 4s to cool. You can do the math yourself: Two Hunchbacks that never fire their lasers do as much damage on average as five Awesomes. Two AC/20 vs. FIFTEEN PPCs.

A sack of lies in an interiew?? Say it aint soooooo, bro!

[MrPenguin]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Heat is exactly the problem, lets remember that these mechs, the trials specifically, are ported directly from TT. If a mech designed to carry 3 of a weapon (with other weapons as back up) cannot fire one of them at its max ROF without overheating heat is broken.

I disagree, because the weapons would still have the same problems if you had 2.0 DHS (Large Lasers would still be objectively better) and if you where to just put down the heat to LL level then LL becomes useless. Thats why I'm saying they're fundamentally broken and need more then quick fix band-aid.

Edited by MrPenguin, 03 December 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Franchi]

SpiralRazor, on 03 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

A sack of lies in an interiew?? Say it aint soooooo, bro!

While the op was cherry picked I read the full interview the amount of brown-nosing was disgusting.

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

I disagree, because the weapons would still have the same problems if you had 2.0 DHS (Large Lasers would still be objectively better) and if you where to just put down the heat to LL level then LL becomes useless. Thats why I'm saying they're fundamentally broken and need more then quick fix band-aid.

You assume that I think the heat system as is can be made to work with true dubs it can't.

As it stands tier one tech needs tier 2 sinks and tier 2 tech needs clan sinks clan tech will need gold sinks to function.

Lower the heat threshold by 40% increase heat dissipation by 40% make shutdowns 10 seconds baseline.

The heat system as is is fundamentally flawed.

Edited by Franchi, 03 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Scratx]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Heat is exactly the problem, lets remember that these mechs, the trials specifically, are ported directly from TT. If a mech designed to carry 3 of a weapon (with other weapons as back up) cannot fire one of them at its max ROF without overheating heat is broken.

Completely disagreed. That assumes, to begin with, that all tabletop mechs were designed to be heat neutral. Not true. But even if it were true, there is no reason why any real-time implementation should allow heat dissipation to be high enough as to keep the increased RoF heat neutral.

It's a design choice whether to make heat a real problem to manage or just something you don't really need to bother with unless you undersink considerably. Which is what would be the case if heat dissipation were 3x TT.

Piranha chose to make it a real problem that needs pilot skill to manage. Many custom mech builders responded by oversinking their mechs in comparison to TT. That's a fair response, I myself have a couple oversinked mechs. But this trades alpha damage off for fire rate, so it becomes a matter of strategy.

I don't know how the game looks like with heat sinkage that good, but I imagine it'd be quite ugly with constant high damage alphas... be careful what you wish for.

[MrPenguin]

Scratx, on 03 December 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Completely disagreed. That assumes, to begin with, that all tabletop mechs were designed to be heat neutral. Not true. But even if it were true, there is no reason why any real-time implementation should allow heat dissipation to be high enough as to keep the increased RoF heat neutral.

It's a design choice whether to make heat a real problem to manage or just something you don't really need to bother with unless you undersink considerably. Which is what would be the case if heat dissipation were 3x TT.

Piranha chose to make it a real problem that needs pilot skill to manage. Many custom mech builders responded by oversinking their mechs in comparison to TT. That's a fair response, I myself have a couple oversinked mechs. But this trades alpha damage off for fire rate, so it becomes a matter of strategy.

I don't know how the game looks like with heat sinkage that good, but I imagine it'd be quite ugly with constant high damage alphas... be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts exactly. Besides,I like the heat mechanic. Gives me more to think about and manage and I love that kind of stuff.

[Franchi]

MrPenguin, on 03 December 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

My thoughts exactly. Besides,I like the heat mechanic. Gives me more to think about and manage and I love that kind of stuff.

My way makes it a problem, it REDUCES op alpha potential but it also makes high heat weapons VIABLE so long as you don't alpha.

[Eggs Mayhem]

Franchi, on 03 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

My way makes it a problem, it REDUCES op alpha potential but it also makes high heat weapons VIABLE so long as you don't alpha.

An issue with that is that it doesn't effect all energy weapons equally. Smaller energy weapons benefit the most from such a system, creating an even larger performance gap between SL/ML and the big boys.

[Franchi]

EmperorMyrf, on 03 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

An issue with that is that it doesn't effect all energy weapons equally. Smaller energy weapons benefit the most from such a system, creating an even larger performance gap between SL/ML and the big boys.

Hard-points balance small laser weapons on everything in game so far except the hunchback.

Edited by Franchi, 03 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.