263 replies to this topic

[Sajuk Kar]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well it's a 50% increase in damage, so it meant I could literally hold my fire button(s) down on 6ML's while running around at 120km/h. For quite awhile.

And 240 damage is a lot of damage to put out before overheating, and I only had 18/19 DHS. At 2.0, you get more than 20 DHS on a Mech, and there are a lot of weapons you can simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all.

Put another way, I was doing a dual-gauss worth of damage every cycle. And I could do that (roughly) eight times in a row.

Seriously, I don't benefit from DHS being 1.4 - my favourite Mech was vastly superior with it being 2.0 - but there's a reason it isn't, and I understand it.

EDIT: I'm at home (and patching), so I don't have my armour values, but I have a 300 XL, Endosteel, 6 medium lasers, and 19 Dual Heatsinks on my CDA-2A. So an alpha = 30 damage; 8 alphas = 8 x 30 = 240 damage.

There are so many things wrong with that statement I almost don't know where to begin. Six medium lasers make 24 heat and 30 damage. My Atlas right now has an Alpha of 30 damage with 27 heat and that's with 40 single heat sinks. I can fire like four times before I have to hold my shots to get the heat down so I can fire again without overheating. And if you are fighting me, and we both do 30 damage, how are you gonna get off 8 volleys if you're dead after my fourth one? If you are in a cicada, and me an Atlas, and we both have the same firepower, (not talking about a lag shield) who do you think's gonna win? You seem to be forgetting that when you're shooting at someone, they're also shooting back at you, and it's rather hard to keep firing when you're dead. And "Put another way, I was doing a dual-gauss worth of damage every cycle. And I could do that (roughly) eight times in a row." So you can't fire FRIGGIN GAUSS RIFLES more than 8 times in a row now? Oh wait you can because each shot generates 1 heat, and it also has a way longer range than a medium laser does. And you can carry enough ammo to practically wipe out the whole other team. Giving everyone 2.0 DHS wouldn't really effect balance at all, it would just be a damage inflation. People would be able to do more damage with energy weapons, but it wouldn't matter because everyone could do it. My recommendation would be to not have them in the game at all, because it isn't ready for them. But having them be the ones in the engine do 2.0 and the ones out 1.4 is complete hypocrisy and is a deliberate buff to light mechs. Because they can utilize that to be more heat efficient than with singles, because alot of the time they only use the heatsinks in their engines. But most heavies and assaults can't becuase of the crit slots.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 05 December 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Ogresan]

rgreat, on 05 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Avesome is so awesome...
BTW, Atlas-RS is better Awesome.


And how this: can transfer to this:
I do not understand... "nearly viable", lol.

Let me help you understand. With better cooling this build is overpowered on the cold maps because you can get 2 alphas off before overheat. Currently it is basically unusable on hot maps because of low dissipation rates. Having the "1.4" tied to max heat as well as dissipation is the culprit here.
Try the build and you may understand even better. Of course you need to be able to aim to make it work. (not saying you can't aim, I have never played with you to my knowledge.)

[Joseph Mallan]

Super Mono, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

The first part of my post was sarcasm. I want the heavy energy weapons to be competitive with heavy ballistics.

Oh...
Sorry. i've gotten used to a lack of good sarcasm around here. I should have recognized.

I agree with your wants for the game.

[Steel Claws]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Oh...
Sorry. i've gotten used to a lack of good sarcasm around here. I should have recognized.

I agree with your wants for the game.

Energy weapons are so much better than ballistics as it is. Seriously don't know what you are talking about.

[rgreat]

Ogresan, on 05 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Let me help you understand. With better cooling this build is overpowered on the cold maps because you can get 2 alphas off before overheat.

ER PPC have recyle of 3 seconds in some futile attempt to make them usable.
Increase reload time and your concern is gone.

Heh, i even wonder if PGI want configs like Awesome with only 1 ERPPC and full body of sinks to make it work all the time...

Edited by rgreat, 05 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Super Mono]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Oh...
Sorry. i've gotten used to a lack of good sarcasm around here. I should have recognized.

I agree with your wants for the game.

With the extreme opinions lots of people have on here I should probably have known I can't say anything dumb enough to be recognized as sarcasm.

Steel Claws, on 05 December 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Energy weapons are so much better than ballistics as it is. Seriously don't know what you are talking about.

So why does every K2 pilot strip off the PPCs and mount gauss rifles?

[FerretGR]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I appreciate your comments but I really hope it doesn't end up like the "3 second Jenner" bogeyman we have lived with up until this point. If things really are that bad with DHS 2.0 then Small and Medium Lasers might need another look and if you don't want to touch those to improve the PPC, tweak the damage and cooldown.

Yeah, agreed. It's simple to me. PPCs, ER weapons, even Large Lasers to a certain extent, would be viable in the big mechs if heat dissipation were better. However, according to the folks on the other side of the issue, though true 2.0 DHS would fix this to a certain extent, implementing them would make Small and Medium lasers too powerful on the field. What we need to do, then, is either give us true 2.0 DHS and nerf meds and smalls, or leave DHS as is and buff PPCS, ER weapons, and LLs (and by buff I mean reduce heat).

That said, I don't really accept the argument that Garth is putting forward. I run my favorite Cicada with 5ML and a tag, and I can alpha basically nonstop right now. Garth's objectionable consequences are basically the current mechanics of the game, not the outcome of 2.0 DHS. Changing to 2.0 DHS will change basically nothing from my perspective in that mech, but it'd be worlds of difference in my other go-to mech, the Awesome. I'd actually put PPCs in the thing instead of streaks or MLs. And since you brought up Gauss:

Quote

And 240 damage is a lot of damage to put out before overheating, and I only had 18/19 DHS. At 2.0, you get more than 20 DHS on a Mech, and there are a lot of weapons you can simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all.

Put another way, I was doing a dual-gauss worth of damage every cycle. And I could do that (roughly) eight times in a row.

Well, if you had a dual gauss on there, you could do that roughly an infinite number of times in a row. Dual gauss is a weapon loadout that you can "simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all." How is filling your mech up with DHS so that you can do what a gauss would do without a single heat sink objectionable?

I'm not sure what the issue is from your perspective beyond perhaps "med lasers are too good." DHS or lack thereof are certainly not to blame for that. Medium lasers, not DHS, are the root of the problem; address that instead of the "symptoms!"

Edited by FerretGR, 05 December 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Steel Claws]

Super Mono, on 05 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

With the extreme opinions lots of people have on here I should probably have known I can't say anything dumb enough to be recognized as sarcasm.




So why does every K2 pilot strip off the PPCs and mount gauss rifles?

You obviously haven't driven a guass cat lately. I see very few of these days.

[Super Mono]

Steel Claws, on 05 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

You obviously haven't driven a guass cat lately. I see very few of these days.

You know what I also don't see? Mechs using PPCs.

[MustrumRidcully]

Super Mono, on 05 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

With the extreme opinions lots of people have on here I should probably have known I can't say anything dumb enough to be recognized as sarcasm.

Isn't that half the fun?!

[TruePoindexter]

Super Mono, on 05 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

You know what I also don't see? Mechs using PPCs.

Or someone not paying attention.

[MustrumRidcully]

FerretGR, on 05 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yeah, agreed. It's simple to me. PPCs, ER weapons, even Large Lasers to a certain extent, would be viable in the big mechs if heat dissipation were better. However, according to the folks on the other side of the issue, though true 2.0 DHS would fix this to a certain extent, implementing them would make Small and Medium lasers too powerful on the field. What we need to do, then, is either give us true 2.0 DHS and nerf meds and smalls, or leave DHS as is and buff PPCS, ER weapons, and LLs (and by buff I mean reduce heat).

That said, I don't really accept the argument that Garth is putting forward. I run my favorite Cicada with 5ML and a tag, and I can alpha basically nonstop right now. Garth's objectionable consequences are basically the current mechanics of the game, not the outcome of 2.0 DHS. Changing to 2.0 DHS will change basically nothing from my perspective in that mech, but it'd be worlds of difference in my other go-to mech, the Awesome. I'd actually put PPCs in the thing instead of streaks or MLs. And since you brought up Gauss:




Well, if you had a dual gauss on there, you could do that roughly an infinite number of times in a row. Dual gauss is a weapon loadout that you can "simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all." How is filling your mech up with DHS so that you can do what a gauss would do without a single heat sink objectionable?

I'm not sure what the issue is from your perspective beyond perhaps "med lasers are too good." DHS or lack thereof are certainly not to blame for that. Medium lasers, not DHS, are the root of the problem; address that instead of the "symptoms!"

Well, I would have an argument to bring here: 20 DHS are at worst 10 tons, and 6 medium lasers 6 tons, but 2 Gauss Rifles are 30 tons plus ammo.

But he made the wrong conclusion here - noth the DHS are OP, the Medium Lasers were.

It's the same thing with how people always say "Weapon X is only OP if you boat it". They are wrong. The weapon is OP, and having 6 weapons that are OP is obviously more OP than having one weapon out of 6 that is OP.

There are effects that sometimes are only OP if used in combination - for example, knockdown effects or control effects. One stun every 30 seconds is okay, but one stun every 5 seconds isn't. But for damage-related things, it's a bit simple.

[Lanessar]

The quote from Garth on the matter was "DHS then become a necessary upgrade".

My response is "who the heck cares?"

How many games have tiered content? I don't know of too many online titles that DON'T have better gear available from a vendor/crafting/whatever. This would exacerbate the obvious lack of matchmaking logic, but 1.5 million Cbills isn't hard to grind out in a few matches, with or without premium. There are plenty of "mandatory" upgrades in the game already. Replace PPC with LL or boat ML, upgrade the SRMs with SSRMs in a light mech, switch out for an XL engine in any sort of a scout setup.

Heck, my Jenner's engine cost more than the mech itself. My survivability went exponentially up just upgrading from the stock to a 275 XL.

Besides, as far as 2.0 DHS go, it's mandatory on anything less than 65 tons anyway, so I'm not seeing how excluding the Assault mechs from using it make it "unnecessary" for the rest of the mech-building world (which is probably a good portion of the F2P player base, seeing as most won't grind for an atlas).

The reasoning behind keeping it at 1.4 is flawed. First we hear of the three-second Jenner. This postulated reality was ALREADY possible with numerous SHS builds given the circumstances and the time allotted. DHS don't change the fact that the modified heat cap for SHS or DHS didn't matter given the scenario.

Since then, there has been no scenario given where DHS were "OP". If the devs stated "these laserboat builds were made OP by the 2.0 DHS", then we could discuss the matter better, come up with better solutions.

Then it's the "everyone will need to run them" logic, when this is instituted on several weapons because of bad implementation (well, until they are fixed, but we'll have to see what direction those fixes take before we can say they aren't fairly mandatory for an optimized build).

However, right now, the whole situation is a stalemate, because the reasons given are faulty/already an issue with SHS. I would love to discuss the matter with the coding Dev for just 10 minutes in a private chat, so I could figure out what the heck they mean, or what scenario they are really looking at.

Edited by Lanessar, 05 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[FerretGR]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, I would have an argument to bring here: 20 DHS are at worst 10 tons, and 6 medium lasers 6 tons, but 2 Gauss Rifles are 30 tons plus ammo.

But he made the wrong conclusion here - noth the DHS are OP, the Medium Lasers were.

Yeah, there are factors either way that sway things; for those extra few tons you get much more range and instantaneous damage, but on the drawback side you get a gun that breaks when you sneeze on it... I'm always loathe to bring gauss into the convo because for one they're such a lightning rod and for two it's really apples and oranges. But that they're basically zero heat is worth bringing in, I suppose.

But in the end, yes, I agree, the conclusion should be that the problem is with the MLs, not the DHSs. By fixing those you give yourself the wiggle room to properly implement 2.0 DHS and to fix PPCs et al.

[MaddMaxx]

The current trade off for the ER versions is Range for Heat.

A Large Laser does 9D for 7H and has a Long Range = 450m.

A ERLarge Laser does 9D for 10H (+3) and has a Long Range = 675m. (+/- 32% Heat to Range)

The PPC does 10D for 9H and has a Long Range = 540m.

The ERPPC does 10D for 13H (+4) and has a Long Range = 810m. (+/- 30% Heat to Range)

When compared, the Heat increase is near in direct relation to the Range gained. I believe these are the TT #'s.

Instead of calculating the Range gains versus Heat increases (about even currently), how about they adjust the amount of Heat that is gained (decrease) per Range bracket increase?

So reduce the current relative % of heat gained by half (50%) while maintaining the same % of Range gained.

So the ERPPC would have the same Long Range, same 10 damage, but generate only 9.5 Heat... Should work for all the ER version similarly...

P.S. 50% reduction is a relative value selected from a ****** based composite.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 05 December 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

You have to keep in mind, Maddmax, that these weapons are also considerably heavier than lower range weapons. So they are double-penalized.

[Alex Wolfe]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

EDIT: I'm at home (and patching), so I don't have my armour values, but I have a 300 XL, Endosteel, 6 medium lasers, and 19 Dual Heatsinks on my CDA-2A. So an alpha = 30 damage; 8 alphas = 8 x 30 = 240 damage.

Garth, when you patch, please check how many times you can alpha on trial mechs. And how long does it take for you to cool down.

Single heat sinks can't really handle technology they're supposed to keep cool (normal lasers), unless used in way greater bulk than "canon" amounts.

Double heat sinks make T1 tech playable (for the most part, PPC still too hot), but even they fall short when it comes to T2 technology they are supposed to power (pulses/ER), which makes ER PPC, ER LL and pulses largely unusable, period, and most energy weapons unusable with SHS.

Could you please fix heat in general ?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[LaserAngel]

FerretGR, on 05 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yeah, agreed. It's simple to me. PPCs, ER weapons, even Large Lasers to a certain extent, would be viable in the big mechs if heat dissipation were better. However, according to the folks on the other side of the issue, though true 2.0 DHS would fix this to a certain extent, implementing them would make Small and Medium lasers too powerful on the field. What we need to do, then, is either give us true 2.0 DHS and nerf meds and smalls, or leave DHS as is and buff PPCS, ER weapons, and LLs (and by buff I mean reduce heat).

That said, I don't really accept the argument that Garth is putting forward. I run my favorite Cicada with 5ML and a tag, and I can alpha basically nonstop right now. Garth's objectionable consequences are basically the current mechanics of the game, not the outcome of 2.0 DHS. Changing to 2.0 DHS will change basically nothing from my perspective in that mech, but it'd be worlds of difference in my other go-to mech, the Awesome. I'd actually put PPCs in the thing instead of streaks or MLs. And since you brought up Gauss:


Well, if you had a dual gauss on there, you could do that roughly an infinite number of times in a row. Dual gauss is a weapon loadout that you can "simply fire forever without heat being an issue at all." How is filling your mech up with DHS so that you can do what a gauss would do without a single heat sink objectionable?

I'm not sure what the issue is from your perspective beyond perhaps "med lasers are too good." DHS or lack thereof are certainly not to blame for that. Medium lasers, not DHS, are the root of the problem; address that instead of the "symptoms!"

After seeming some more replies, it does feel like another bogeyman. The comparison to Gauss Rifle levels of damage means more than the Small/Medium Lasers are the problem at no the Guass, cats aside.

That or in some perfect, no lag internal build where everyone just stands still an Alpha Strikes it works. Drop the heat capacity buff from DHS to 1.0.

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Garth, when you patch, please check how many times you can alpha on trial mechs. And how long does it take for you to cool down.

Single heat sinks can't really handle technology they're supposed to keep cool (normal lasers), unless used in way greater bulk than "canon" amounts.

Double heat sinks make T1 tech playable (for the most part, PPC still too hot), but even they fall short when it comes to technology they are supposed to power (pulses/ER), which makes them unuseable.

Could you please fix heat in general ?

T1 Tech in this game DOES require Double Heatsinks to be viable unless it's a Gausscat. I can only wonder how many Clan mechs will just keel over every few seconds from the current heat system. Better range and damage become irrelevant then.

[Asatruer]

LaserAngel, on 05 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

T1 Tech in this game DOES require Double Heatsinks to be viable unless it's a Gausscat. I can only wonder how many Clan mechs will just keel over every few seconds from the current heat system. Better range and damage become irrelevant then.

T1 tech means all the standard core TRO 3025 stuff, pre-rediscovery of the Helm core.
T2 tech would be things like ER Large, ER PPC, Pulse LMS Lasers, Gauss, DHS, Endo, Ferro, XL Engines, et cetera.

Tech 1, all the core stuff, should not require DHS (tech 2) to become viable.

[LaserAngel]

Asatruer, on 05 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

T1 tech means all the standard core TRO 3025 stuff, pre-rediscovery of the Helm core.
T2 tech would be things like ER Large, ER PPC, Pulse LMS Lasers, Gauss, DHS, Endo, Ferro, XL Engines, et cetera.

Tech 1, all the core stuff, should not require DHS (tech 2) to become viable.

That's the joke.

SHS handles T1 just fine, even those PPCs. You have to get DHS just to make T1 viable in MWO.

Edited by LaserAngel, 05 December 2012 - 03:24 PM.