2028 replies to this topic

[Targetloc]

My biggest problem with ECM is that the 20 meter buffer between 'can lock on' (200m) and 'you can't relay target info' (180m) is far too small.

The average ECM carrying mech closes that distance in less than 1 second. Literally. 100 km/h = 27.2 m/sec.

That's not even counting your forward momentum when you first contact them. Even if you are running backwards at full speed as you make contact they'll still envelop you before you have a chance to relay target info. It's far too easy for the ECM side to control the buffer zone right now.

Being able to lock on to ECM'd mechs from 360 to 400 meters would be a lot more balanced


The other thing that doesn't make any sense is that ECM fields are invisible on radar. This is not a null-sig system. In the real world (and in the Battletech rules themselves) you know when you are being jammed.

You will not know the exact position of the jamming's source, or be able to tell if there are other units besides the jammer in the area (which is a huge advantage in itself, and well worth the 1.5 tons) but there absolutely should be a large fuzzy section on your map that says 'here be ravens.'

Right now ECM has absolutely zero downside. The trade-off should be that it gives away your general position in exchange for hiding your specific position and the number of units moving with you. (Plus all the other magic stuff it does once you get within 180m of the enemy).

[LionZoo]

One more note: I find ECM to be very OP even though a nerf in ECM would actually be against my own interests. My play style is almost exclusively sneaking around in a light Mech. ECM is tailor made for what I like to do, but it's made it so effective that I really fear it hurts the rest of the game.

[Marcus Tanner]

ICEFANG13, on 15 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I agree actually, if all players who hate ECM took a day or two off, they would notice right away. I guess wait until tuesday (annoyingly) and then we'll see.

I've been taking a break for the better part of a week now.

I've been taking a break ever since I was out PUGing in my Atlas D-DC with gauss and 2 large lasers with 2x15 artemis racks and rounded a corner to see 3 Atlas D-DCs and a Raven 3L. I lost my mech about 10 seconds later (I was surprised at how long it took) and as I went down I found out that there was another Atlas shooting at me from behind (chances are, another D-DC).

I decided then that until ECM attains a measure of sanity I would only play with my buddies, one who drives a Raven 3L with ECM and TAG and another in a Jenner with TAG. During those games I drop the gauss for another LRM-15. With my low frame rate I tend to do very poorly with direct fire weapons against anything but assault mechs, but the prevalence of ECM means that I'm out of options if I want to try PUGing these days.

I've "adapted" to ECM by cutting my playtime down to when I have friends handy, because unlike the previous patch I just don't get to enjoy PUG games these days. I've also "adapted" by driving an ECM-capable mech in conjunction with an ECM-capable spotter. This combination allows me to play the game sorta like it was before ECM (if you kinda tilt your head squint at it). However, I simply haven't been able to get together for another set of team drops in a while.

If the next patch improves things (a remote possibility considering the dev team is happy with ECM in this patch), then I might start putting time into the game again. I just have no desire to PUG in this environment, and I want to start trying 8v8 games as much as I want a paternity suit from an ex.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 15 December 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[l33tworks]

I didn't want to start a new thread. So I will ask some questions here.

I still casually see incoming missile with ECM on and DO sometimes get hit by missiles. What exactly are the condition here, it isnt 100% effective etc as in why are missiles still locking on and hitting me? This is before I ever knew to change away from distrupt mode btw.

Many times I will see enemies my Radar computer has picked up (they have red marker) above them, they can be right in front me of, 30m etc however even if they do not have ECM, there is no nearby ECM to protect them, many times I cannot lock on to them say with my STREAKS.

What is happening here?

I tried pressing the J button to change from distrust to counter and it did nothing?

[ICEFANG13]

I understand exactly where you're coming from. I used to pilot a Jenner-D (because I loved it, not because it was the best), and now the ECM has made the Jenner-D/K, Commando other than 2D, Raven-2X/4X worthless completely. I play Raven-3L because its the only great scout now, all the others get eaten by the Raven-3L (except the Commando 2D, pretty comparable, and the Jenner-F, but I feel the Cicada-2A/2B is better for that). I miss playing the Jenner-D, and I wish they would put more effort into making everything balanced. Lights are a mess right now, and ECM, which could be used on mechs to make them compatible to other good mechs, was put on the best Commando, already good, the best Raven, which was as good as the Jenner-D (2.3KPH less speed/.5 more tons from the 295 engine, one less energy hardpoint, jump jets, which are broken, in return has an extra module slot. Pretty comparable), the D-DC, which is not the worst at all, the AWE are all worse overall, and the K is the worst Atlas overall, and the Cicada-3M, which is not a bad Cicada (and still is the worst of the 4ECM mechs). This game needs some love stat, or it won't last until halfway 2013, if that.

l33tworks, on 15 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I didn't want to start a new thread. So I will ask some questions here.

I still casually see incoming missile with ECM on and DO sometimes get hit by missiles. What exactly are the condition here, it isnt 100% effective etc as in why are missiles still locking on and hitting me? This is before I ever knew to change away from distrupt mode btw.

Many times I will see enemies my Radar computer has picked up (they have red marker) above them, they can be right in front me of, 30m etc however even if they do not have ECM, there is no nearby ECM to protect them, many times I cannot lock on to them say with my STREAKS.

What is happening here?

I tried pressing the J button to change from distrust to counter and it did nothing?

Before I answer your question, please specify what kind of missiles in question one, and what kind of mech are you using? It will help answer it more directly.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 15 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[l33tworks]

ICEFANG13, on 15 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I understand exactly where you're coming from. I used to pilot a Jenner-D (because I loved it, not because it was the best), and now the ECM has made the Jenner-D/K, Commando other than 2D, Raven-2X/4X worthless completely. I play Raven-3L because its the only great scout now, all the others get eaten by the Raven-3L (except the Commando 2D, pretty comparable, and the Jenner-F, but I feel the Cicada-2A/2B is better for that). I miss playing the Jenner-D, and I wish they would put more effort into making everything balanced. Lights are a mess right now, and ECM, which could be used on mechs to make them compatible to other good mechs, was put on the best Commando, already good, the best Raven, which was as good as the Jenner-D (2.3KPH less speed/.5 more tons from the 295 engine, one less energy hardpoint, jump jets, which are broken, in return has an extra module slot. Pretty comparable), the D-DC, which is not the worst at all, the AWE are all worse overall, and the K is the worst Atlas overall, and the Cicada-3M, which is not a bad Cicada (and still is the worst of the 4ECM mechs). This game needs some love stat, or it won't last until halfway 2013, if that.




Before I answer your question, please specify what kind of missiles in question one, and what kind of mech are you using? It will help answer it more directly.

Ok I was in a commando with ECM. Enemy was a hunchback. He had no ECM lettering or eye logo. Was starring at him could not get a lock, he was targeted as an enemy for sure had all his info etc. I pressed J to swtich to disrupt mode just in case. It didn't do anything. I have this happen a lot of times. That is just one example I'm not sure what the mechs have to do with it.

Anyway I just had another game with ECM on. A raven was clearly shooting streaks at me. There was no incoming missile this time (like there sometimes is even with ECM on) but they were certainly locked on to me and they all hit.

[Targetloc]

l33tworks, on 15 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I didn't want to start a new thread. So I will ask some questions here.

I still casually see incoming missile with ECM on and DO sometimes get hit by missiles. What exactly are the condition here, it isnt 100% effective etc as in why are missiles still locking on and hitting me? This is before I ever knew to change away from distrupt mode btw.

Many times I will see enemies my Radar computer has picked up (they have red marker) above them, they can be right in front me of, 30m etc however even if they do not have ECM, there is no nearby ECM to protect them, many times I cannot lock on to them say with my STREAKS.

What is happening here?

I tried pressing the J button to change from distrust to counter and it did nothing?

ECM prevents enemies from locking on to you until they are within 200m.

Inside 180m SSRMs and target relaying to team members is jammed.

From if someone stands between 181m and 200m away from you they can lock on to you with streaks, or their team can lock you for LRMs.

[ltwally]

ICEFANG13, on 15 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

They should never have to limit anything on either team other than a very broad number, like, 8 man teams, tonnage limits, must have the same number of lights(etc) on each team. No way should ECM be limited to 2, it should be fixed. I never heard that suggestion for streakcats?

You know, they should limit the amount of streakcats per team to 1, it would be great.

Much like ECM, the solution is not to limit the number of ECM's, but to fix the equipment.

My thinking for S-SRM is that its effectiveness should be directly and inversely proportional to the number of S-SRM tubes that you have.

2 tubes, hits CT 100%
4 tubes, hits a torso 95%
6 tubes, hits a torso or arms 90%
8 tubes, hits a torso, arms or legs 85%
10 tubes, hits something (but not head) 80%
for each 2 tubes after that, remove hit chance by 5 - 10%, to a minimum of 50% hit chance.

So that a StreakCat with 6x S-SRM-2 will see its S-SRM'***** 75% of the time, and will hit any location but head.

When they roll out S-SRM-4 and S-SRM-6, their effectiveness will have been already handled. (A StreakCat with 6x S-SRM-6 will waste 50% of its ammo, and its shots will land all over the place. Powerful? Probably yes. But super-lethal? Nah.)

I'm not going for any type of real-world logic. Just game balance.

[Victor Morson]

Immediately after getting ECM, I said it wouldn't be so bad if they increased the TAG range to make LRM boats viable.

... then they announced they were extending TAG.

I think that'll do it.

[ICEFANG13]

l33tworks, on 15 December 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Ok I was in a commando with ECM. Enemy was a hunchback. He had no ECM lettering or eye logo. Was starring at him could not get a lock, he was targeted as an enemy for sure had all his info etc. I pressed J to swtich to disrupt mode just in case. It didn't do anything. I have this happen a lot of times. That is just one example I'm not sure what the mechs have to do with it.

Anyway I just had another game with ECM on. A raven was clearly shooting streaks at me. There was no incoming missile this time (like there sometimes is even with ECM on) but they were certainly locked on to me and they all hit.

First of all: Disrupt is what you use to protect yourself, and Counter is what you use to stop other ECMs.

In the example, a mech could have locked on to him in the range of ECM, and while it takes longer, is still possible, and the mech would have ECM protection of streaks, also you may have been influenced by ECM, if not, I dunno, sounds like it didn't work right.

I think the knowledge of counter/disrupt may make your play more consistent.



The advice to balance streaks is a great idea. Personally I'd love to see them move very slowly, more like LRM speed, so AMS can work on them, and you can get away or get to cover. SRM's probably could move a little faster.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 15 December 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Scrad]

The way I see the biggest issue with ECM is this.

It is being carried by streak wielding lights who use it to lock down their targets streaks whilst firing their own with impunity.

So with the already overpowered streaks you have now added to the issue in that the viable counter for light mech's being lock on weapons are now being made nonviable.

The king light mechs are currently the two being able to carry ECM especially as they also usually get loaded with streaks.

Right now I'm seeing more and more of the ECM carrying lights than any other sort of light which should point to it being unbalanced as it is.

[warp103]

Marcus Tanner, on 15 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I've been taking a break for the better part of a week now.

I've been taking a break ever since I was out PUGing in my Atlas D-DC with gauss and 2 large lasers with 2x15 artemis racks and rounded a corner to see 3 Atlas D-DCs and a Raven 3L. I lost my mech about 10 seconds later (I was surprised at how long it took) and as I went down I found out that there was another Atlas shooting at me from behind (chances are, another D-DC).

I decided then that until ECM attains a measure of sanity I would only play with my buddies, one who drives a Raven 3L with ECM and TAG and another in a Jenner with TAG. During those games I drop the gauss for another LRM-15. With my low frame rate I tend to do very poorly with direct fire weapons against anything but assault mechs, but the prevalence of ECM means that I'm out of options if I want to try PUGing these days.

I've "adapted" to ECM by cutting my playtime down to when I have friends handy, because unlike the previous patch I just don't get to enjoy PUG games these days. I've also "adapted" by driving an ECM-capable mech in conjunction with an ECM-capable spotter. This combination allows me to play the game sorta like it was before ECM (if you kinda tilt your head squint at it). However, I simply haven't been able to get together for another set of team drops in a while.

If the next patch improves things (a remote possibility considering the dev team is happy with ECM in this patch), then I might start putting time into the game again. I just have no desire to PUG in this environment, and I want to start trying 8v8 games as much as I want a paternity suit from an ex.

1 or 2 or even 50 will not show them but if half the server breaks lets say thursday after seeing what the patch going to do. This will show them that not just some but alot of us think we should, at the very least ecm need the address here.

[CoreHunter]

would not be against a 2 day or so break thursday after patch.

[LionZoo]

warp103, on 15 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

1 or 2 or even 50 will not show them but if half the server breaks lets say thursday after seeing what the patch going to do. This will show them that not just some but alot of us think we should, at the very least ecm need the address here.

If this is to be organized, then people in the game need to be notified. Most players aren't on the forums.

[CoreHunter]

just wondering if say 50% of the pug community started TKing any ecm mech on the feild say after the patch how many could they possably ban and still have a player base?

[Abivard]

Mini map,

gee trolls if you put a tenth of the effort into learning this game as you do trolling the boards you wouldn't constantly need your hands held in the game.

CoreHunter, on 15 December 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

just wondering if say 50% of the pug community started TKing any ecm mech on the feild say after the patch how many could they possably ban and still have a player base?

I don't think they will miss a handful of poor sports like your lot, take your ball and go home, we have plenty more laying around brat ;p

[ICEFANG13]

I am an excellent player, and my stats are far greater than yours. I know how to play, and because my opinions are different than you means I'm a troll?

[Alik Kerensky]

Tolkien, on 15 December 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Hang on a second... I for one rely heavily on IFF markers to know who is who in the middle of a hairball, and failing IFF markers I would like to have one of

-team colours
-team cammo/markings

Just like a real fighting force does in case the electronic IFF goes down during ECM.

Maybe PGI should do like everyother game out there... you see one thing the other teams something else... would ruin showing off those pos paint schemes to the enemy... meh.

[Abivard]

I see no relationship of the number of posts equating Player skill, that stat like most is rather meaningless.

Maybe your just vain, but, If you feel you are a troll that is your opinion of yourself,
If you also felt offended that I could care less if you 'take your ball home', good.

[Red squirrel]

l33tworks, on 15 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I didn't want to start a new thread. So I will ask some questions here.

I still casually see incoming missile with ECM on and DO sometimes get hit by missiles. What exactly are the condition here, it isnt 100% effective etc as in why are missiles still locking on and hitting me? This is before I ever knew to change away from distrupt mode btw.

Many times I will see enemies my Radar computer has picked up (they have red marker) above them, they can be right in front me of, 30m etc however even if they do not have ECM, there is no nearby ECM to protect them, many times I cannot lock on to them say with my STREAKS.

What is happening here?

I tried pressing the J button to change from distrust to counter and it did nothing?

Wow that must have been the one time TAG worked.