2028 replies to this topic

[Herzog]

It's been said before, but I'll say it again. ECM has made LRM's and Steaks useless, as evidenced by their complete evaporation from the battlefield.

[Ezrekiel]

No weight limit matchmaking has caused the influx of Atlas-heavy teams, not ECM.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, after all 8vs8 kinda is the endgame content for now (until Community Warfare comes) and there should be the most expensive and highly tuned Mechs be used in there.

All ECM did was kill variety of Mechs: instead of having a broader selection, now every Chassis variant that can mount ECM will see disproportionately high use.
As if that wasnt clear before - limit variety of fittings and there will always be a "best" choice for what players want. Give the option to mount ECM to everyone instead and we'll see more Mech variety.

[Agent of Change]

So I thought about it and I have some suggestions about potentially improving/fixing ECM to a little bit more balanced and less essential place. For my full thoughts on ECM currently my earlier post explains it on page 19 of this thread.

In the interest of not just complaining this is my brainstorm on improving ECM. (I have borrowed some ideas I saw earlier in discussions about ECM.) My changes/additions are in bold.

Disruption Mode:
* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 50% of normal range).

* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.

* Disables enemy NARC

* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target

* Slow down weapon locks by 25%

* Slow down target gathering by 25%

* Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Counter Mode:

* Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode.

Vs. Active Probe:

* A BAP equipped mech counts as neutralizing 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in disruption mode for that mech ONLY.

Examples: 1 friendly BAP equipped mech and 1 friendly Non-BAP equipped mech are inside the Disruption bubble of 1 enemy ECM, The BAP mech acts normally the Non-BAP mech is jammed.

Same example as above but with 2 enemy disruption mechs, both friendly mechs are jammed

Same example as immediately above but the friendly mechs also have 1 ECM in Counter mode, the Bap mech operates normally, the non-bap mech is jammed

Basically it adds a limited counter function to BAP to actually give it value in an ECM battle field but also provide a soft counter to ECM for mechs that can’t equip ECM, thereby reducing ECM’s Offensive value without necessarily changing ECM’s defensive properties (cloaking).

The calculation for jamming per mech is: BAP Negates 1 Disrupting ECM for the equipped mech only, each friendly Counter ECM negates 1 Distrupting ECM for all affected mechs
.
Break down of changes:

Multiple ECM’s still jam BAP mechs and to counter it requires ECM presence but it means a single enemy ECM cannot shutdown an entire team. This also allows for more flexibility in builds without being totally exposed to ECM, it also makes the cloaking effect of ECM the primary reason to take it and still a choice but not essential as with the detection range only reduced by 50% it will allow for mid-range engagements rather than allowing a team to walk up to short range unseen by radar.

Lastly Narc Should broadcast through ECM and allow a lock to the narc’d target as it is currently worthless due to it’s short range, ammo limitation and weight requirements, it should have some benefit.

Edited by Agent of Change, 05 December 2012 - 06:57 AM.

[PhobiaOne]

Xeren KelDar, on 04 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

As it stands right now ECM is over tweaked. I think the core concept is pretty good, but just overtuned right now. One thing that could help counter it for LRMs at least is NARC and maybe tune NARC duration to permanent, but susceptable to damage. For instance it would never go off cooldown, but could get destroyed by the LRMs you just landed on the mech.

With just assault mode there seems to be even more of a shift in dynamic to cap the base, only now its both teams trying to be ninjas and do it while under an ECM bubble. This issue may get resolved in the future with CW, but right now seems to really detract from the game as it is negating the big stompy mech battles.

Finally, these may be bugged issues or not, but it seems ECM is blocking targetting for me even while I maintain LoS to target. If bugged or intended I think it needs to be looked into. This has happened to me at less than 90m (ECM bubble), 200m, and out to 600-800 all while I could plainy see the target. Blocking the lockable weapons (SSRM) seems to be the intent and I'm ok with that, but totally negating the red box which really does nothing to direct fire weapons seems excessive. One you lose LoS, I'd be ok with the ninja raven dropping off targetting/radar/etc.

To summarize:

Core Concept pretty good and promises lots of potential

Execution is overtweaked and leads to gameplay issues making it a negative addition to the current system in its current state (both game's state and ECM's)

Xeran,
ECM is working exactly as it should. Targeting in a Mech requires an electronic detection from your system. ECM stands for Electronic Counter Measure. It blocks your mech from detecting it Electronically. This includes the NARC signal. A NARC emits a signal for the LRMs to home in on, but ECM jams that signal. Just like the Air Force has planes with ECM to jam enemy radar which stops them from getting a lock on them (and the planes they are escorting) so their Surface to Air Missiles are worthless.



For all of those who are QQing THE DAY AFTER ECM CAME OUT you are nothing but lazy idiots! Give it a week to figure out new tactics instead of jumping on the forums, and whining right away. New things always require some adjustment to tactics. That is what the Military does EVERYDAY! They see something new, and they start to reevaluate their current tactics, and make adjustments. We need to do the same thing. My Merc. Corp, and I played for several hours last night in 8v8s. We were trying different tactics to see what worked, and what didn't. We figured a lot out in just a few hours. Yeah some tactics ended in utter failure, but we learned from it, and in the long run we are better for it. ECM has changed this game for the better as it REQUIRES cooperation. All the whiners don't forget the ECM can counter ECM. Learn some new tactics, and stop QQing!

Edited by PhobiaOne, 05 December 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[MrRioght]

Just played a few games, game plan:
everybody is following the ECM bots leaving the base open for scouting ECM bots to cap. 4 out of my 5 games followed that exact game play. (I ended up guarding the cap the last two games by myself just to combat this).

Everyone seems to have decided they need ECM or to be covered by ECM or they will get killed by the LRM / streakcats. Why is nobody playing like they use to? we used to get hit by the LRMs and streakcats all the time and that was fine in my book.

The biggest problem with current gameplay is, as said by others before, is the light mechs. We can't pick up the scouts on radar, so we can't cut them off, so the first thing we know about their location is when they are capping. Scouts moving at >105kms per hour have always been the most powerful 1 on 1 mech in skilled hands and without streak lock, they have been almost impossible to kill. (Although i did just kill and hold off 2 ECM commandoes for a victory in the last game which I suppose shows that maybe I didn't have to rely on streaks for killing scouts and that there are other ways, but more likely they were knew to light mechs and riding the ECM bandwagon.)

I don't mind ECM but those last 5 games showed that it's not much fun on a cap assault map, if the game offered victory to the last man standing and removed capping, I don't think ECM would have such a great impact. It would open the way for long tactical battles, but i understand long battles aren't everyones cup of tea.

As it stands there are a lot of good ideas in this post to weaken the effect of ECM which currently I support, but maybe a couple more days will bring back sane play and people will stop hugging the ECM atlases. Perhaps if we could switch to thermal under zoom and see the waves of infared or whatever leaving a component at least that would give us something to snipe at? Just one more idea to throw down. (sorry if it's been said, i skimmed the last 10 pages.)

[DeathofSelf]

I think that ECM is great! It adds some very interesting aspects to gameplay and furthers information warfare. And it will be nice to finally be able to counter the streak cats.

[Snib]

MrRioght, on 05 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Just played a few games, game plan:
everybody is following the ECM bots leaving the base open for scouting ECM bots to cap. 4 out of my 5 games followed that exact game play. (I ended up guarding the cap the last two games by myself just to combat this).

Everyone seems to have decided they need ECM or to be covered by ECM or they will get killed by the LRM / streakcats. Why is nobody playing like they use to? we used to get hit by the LRMs and streakcats all the time and that was fine in my book.

Because ECM lights are practically invulnerable due to lag shield and streaks being disabled now. Going back to defend just means dying pointlessly. So you let them cap and move on.

[mekabuser]

Its OP, concept is nice, but the whole who has more ecm wins isnt the path to balance.
Once again, you would think that they had done a smidgen of research and checked out how it works in mwll

For the record, the whole ecm ,gecm thing works great in mwll. Balanced and properly implemented.
Hopefully fixed soon.

Also if ecm will be on an atlas, it should weigh proportionally more so that there is a significant decrease in an atlas firepower equipped with ecm. Say 4-5 tons.

Edited by mekabuser, 05 December 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

It's been out for less than a day, people. Of course there is a disproportionate amount of ECM mechs on the field. Everyone wants to try it...

[xXBagheeraXx]

Actually, there is no comparing this to mw4's ecm system. Mw4's Ecm worked the way my gecm suggestion works.....however in that game you can see people on radar you dont have line of sight on, if they went passive radar (also something we cant do) they could get even closer before you picked them up on radar...The way targeting works in this game, it seems like everyone has a C3 computer with the target data sharing, etc...

[Darkblood]

Xendojo, on 04 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Ive seen ECM equipped mechs in thermal vision and yes the ripple effect is just on those mechs.

If you meant the ripple is around ECM equipped Mechs, you're right. But you can also see if you haven´t ECM and are looking at a Mech that does.

What´s the deal with that, by the way? It makes no sense, ECM has nothing to do with heat waves...

[MaddMaxx]

Ostensibly, what ECM has shown the Community is that no one Mech can really do it ALL. If you had a mix of weapons, you now require another module (TAG) in order to use the locking missile variety, from 450m and in. Ballistics and non locking weapons still function 100%.

Yes, the Min/Max, Alpha queens are pissed off. Their builds that could "do it ALL by themselves", now have to adjust that build, thus giving up some of that "Alpha" or rely on a Teammate to compensate for their own lacking. Many do not like to "have to" rely on anyone, even the so called "Team Players". I do not see this as a negative to game play really.

I played many games last night and ECM did a couple of things that I noticed right off. It forced both Teams to watch their flanks more, the Cap rush was always there, now you just need to stay within visual range of any and all approaches.

There also seemed to be less folks running off on their own when they spied that little "eye" in the sky symbol in front of them. It made for some "OMG!" furballs popping up out of no where, but those can be Fun as well. Paying better attention to any and all "blips" now really pays dividends.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 05 December 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Jiiri]

Naeron66, on 05 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

I demand a 1.5 ton 2 slot item that makes my mech immune to Gauss Rifle fire from beyond 275m, and another that halves the effective range of Lasers.

If any such thing were added people would really complain, but add something that severely cuts the effectiveness of LRMs and Streaks and that is apparently fine. Streak Cats were in issue, but the solution would be to make boating less effective not make entire weapon systems less effective.

Lol ! nicely put,and it narrows it down percisely.

I proudly present you:

The Reflective Shield. (as a contrary to the ECM).
Any Damage from Lasers and Autocannons below 400m is reflected. All own cloaked Mechs over 450m are invisible in Game. But yes, you have 50m (30more tahn LRMs have now!) window of opportunity. If you target a Mech with a TAG Laser (remember, below 400m it is reflected) for continously 8 Seconds (enhanced Lock-on time for missles, so we have to make it equal), you can shoot them with one salvo of Lasers and Autocannons.

Oh, and I want to be fair: the reflective shield weighs 2tons instead of the 1,5t for ECM.

[/sarcasm off]

Nah, no one will take that serious, but if you would for a second ? Wouldn't you think this is totally off-balance and idiotic ? Yeah, that's what most people think about ECM now, too.

We (60man chapter) will continue testing ECM - but believe me, we have already done so, and whoever says "I had a game or two and it was awesome with ECM" has no idea what the battlefield will look like when everyone "adepts" to this new change and all teams roll 5-6 Atlas-DC.

[GazT4R]

Personally I like it and don't think anything should be changed. It brings a greater tactical depth to the game. You not only have to think about where you are going but how to do it, whilst looking out visually for the enemy, and even when you encounter the enemy you have to use the ECM modes correctly at the right time.

In Pug drops I can see it would unbalance things but then premade drops in Pug fights have, and always will, unbalance things. Your bound to see Pugs start appearing with it sooner or later and at least the Pugs stick around rather than scatter every which way when there is an ECM Mech about.
As for the Trial Mechs now being useless, they are a bag of crap anyway, ECM didn't change that and they are only a stepping stone to your first Mech which if you have any sense would be a light that can equip ECM.

We ran a mixed group, not all ECM touting but a full mix of two lights, couple of heavies and an Atlas and LRM Cat in an 8 Man drop. Took a while to sort things coordinated and we lost a couple but it takes tactics AND timing to be effective, not just roll in and launch LRMS/Brawl or leave in one mode, it has to be USED correctly like any weapon.

As for lights sneaking about and capping, its not that hard to counter.

[Tickerson]

I hate what the ECM and this version of 8 man groups have brought to the table. In eight man, typically you get a couple lights, and the rest are Atlas all with ECM. Since my team was not equipped to take a bunch of atlas with ECM, we got rolled every time. Mix this with the lag and it sucks more since hitting the lights carrying ECM is nearly impossible now. I swear the lag has gotten worse with every patch, and the disconnects/crashes aren't any better either.

ECM is definitely a game changer; Im not good with change, ill be honest about that. Although i really believe its proving to be more significant on game play than was intended. Weren't Mediums the workhorse of the majority of battles? The only medium i counted in 8 man was my own. If you dont have ECM, your are basically attached to the hip of someone who is. Not having fun with this at all.

I also played pug style and four man. This is much more tolerable since matchmaking is more even and some of the players with ECM are unorganized.

The overall felling I felt last night with playing: Disappointment and frustration.

[Fiachdubh]

Teralitha, on 05 December 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

This ECM is nothing like it was in MW4. Fail...

As you can see below I did not compare ECM between games I said it reminded me of using EW (electronic warfare) in MW4.
You Fail...

Fiachdubh, on 05 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

It reminds me of the old MW4 days of units using EW to sneak around and ambush opponents. I like it.

[Morikuro]

I had a few PUG drops yesterday try things out, and I got to see the good and bad side of ECM. First drop one guy had a DC with it (so did the other team), and we actually played a bit like a team despite it being a PUG (shock, I know). Then I had a game where no one had ECM on our side, and they had at least two. We got stomped and my cat didn't do a lot of fire support since locks were hard to achieve. Haven't seen the 8man ECM blob of death talked about in another thread though, it sounds inefficient. Why have 8 of them? Why even have 4 of them?

ECM definitely adds a reason to play cooperatively in PUGs though, which is a good thing.

[Benno8113]

I've been talking it over with friends and we all agree that the ECM works great especially since it was just introduced. You don't need it at all. We ending up winning with no EMC on our team and one ECM on the other. I was just playing tonight and it was only two of us in a group.

Tactics have changed, people do follow the ECM now, but you still get people running off by them selves or getting separated from the main group.

I think that having it helps just keep team cohesion.

To test it I tried using my hunchback with streaks and medium lasers Even though I couldn't lock with the streaks at least I still had the lasers to fall back on. My friend tried the streak cat and put two normal SRMs in as well just in case and still managed to do fine.

I think that's the main issue with people complaining is that they're mechs aren't weapon balanced enough to deal with situations. Not all can be catered for, but you will stand a better chance.

So all in all I really like the ECM and I do believe it adds to the game.

[Agent of Change]

Morikuro, on 05 December 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

I had a few PUG drops yesterday try things out, and I got to see the good and bad side of ECM. First drop one guy had a DC with it (so did the other team), and we actually played a bit like a team despite it being a PUG (shock, I know). Then I had a game where no one had ECM on our side, and they had at least two. We got stomped and my cat didn't do a lot of fire support since locks were hard to achieve. Haven't seen the 8man ECM blob of death talked about in another thread though, it sounds inefficient. Why have 8 of them? Why even have 4 of them?

ECM definitely adds a reason to play cooperatively in PUGs though, which is a good thing.

What i saw with the 6+ ecm blob and why it works for now is that half of the switch to counter and the other half stay disrupt and then they own the areas they are in. It becomes difficult to do anything to them, you can't range them unless you overwhelm their Ecm (almost impossible) and if in the attempt you expose your team they can rain missiles down on them. It does work, i'm sure it's beatable but at current it works.

[Jakob Knight]

From my own experience in quite a few chassis, I can say with confidence that ECM needs to be substantially modified. As it stands now, it has far too much impact on a single class of weapon system, to the point of rendering mechs that must rely on that class of weapon to be combat effective all but useless.


If ECM was intended to be a scouting assistance module, it has too much impact on the ability for mechs to act as spotters for support fire.

If ECM was intended to be a counter to spotting for indirect fire, it has too much impact on the ability to detect units.


That the system claimed to be the counter to it is, itself, countered by the system it was meant to counter means that this is a non-solution. Especially when the area of effect is so great that using that counter system outside the area of the ECM unit is non-practical, and requires substantial reduction in firepower (unlike the ECM equipment, which is free from any weapons restrictions). This is doubly true when the counter system lacks a duration of effect to do its job (it will take longer for a missile salvo to travel to the target than the TAG designation lasts). Thus, the ECM system cannot be effectively countered except by itself, and eliminates one of the four roles that it was claimed players could select in Role Warfare. Fire Support is effectively removed from the game with the introduction of this system.

Finally, ECM as it is currently implemented breaks with the stated goals of the dev team that they were dedicated to making a game faithful to the orginal source material. Guardian ECM never had effects even close to what has been implemented in the game, and with good reasons. Such effects were overly disruptive for the cost to the mounting unit. Larger units were later introduced, but never with such effects. Even the supreme stealth system in the game did not reach the level of this much smaller unit. Thus, this represents a break of faith between the Devs and the players.

To correct the first of these issues, one of two things must be done. If the ECM equipment is intended to be a stealth system, then the interference with any and all targeting systems within its radius of effect must be removed. If the ECM equipment is intended to be a block on support fire ability, then the blocking of targeting and detection outside the limits of its range must be removed. To correct all of these issues, however, the Guardian ECM must be restricted to only the effects as listed in the original source material, without effects beyond those it was designed with. Does it really need to do more than counter other advanced equipment of similar tonnage (Artemis, BAP, TAG, and Command Consoles) in order for it to be worthwhile for it's 1.5 tons?

Failure to do any of these will simply leave the same problems in place. Doing the above would allow the ECM to fullfil its purpose without eliminating one of the four roles claimed by the Devs for players in their game.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 December 2012 - 08:12 AM.