2028 replies to this topic

[Stingz]

HarmAssassin, on 05 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

2. Keep the range 180m, but instead of totally preventing weapon locks, have it instead increase the miss chance of each individual missile (or group). So that if without ECM 80% hit, with ECM perhaps 40% hit. Or something along those lines.

This sounds much better, AMS stays useful, and ECM still affects lock weapons.

[RRMule]

I think GECM is excellent and adds something to the game. Not only are we seeing a greater use of items like TAG, but also groups of mechs are sticking more closely together, creating larger brawls.

I also notice I am looking over my shoulder and paying attention to visual cues much more often now, as visual target identification, and communication is key. These things all make for a more tactical game!

I was running my raven ECM mech yesterday on mumble with a few of my friends and when an enemy mech showed up with ECM to jam them they immediately became confused and disoriented, lost their targets and briefly panicked... I ran over and tapped 'j' and all of a sudden they cried out with joy and the battle started tipping the other way. It's a really dramatic effect!

I think if ECM was "Nerfed" there is a danger of making it not matter too much, and if it doesn't matter much then it is hardly as exciting or game-changing to run an ECM mech so nobody will bother. I am not doing nearly as much shooting and C-bill earning when I am running ECM after all.

My one suggestion would be to have a subtle bubble out at 180m on my radar screen for me to see when I an running ECM just so I can see on the battlegrid who I am affecting, maybe even let friendlies see it. This would take out some of the guesswork.

Thanks for the great additions PGI!

[Kenyon Burguess]

got in a match today and there was a pair of commandos there to cover us. we hid behind a hill and ambushed the herd of heavies and assaults as they came about. the system feels good and i did get tagged and rained on by a lrm but was able to move into cover and he had to come down and fight in a different way. its a world of difference since the last time i played and i very much enjoyed the experience. while im posting i also want to rave about my purple camo paint job, the marik poster on my wall, the christmas lights and everything else my centurion is sporting.

that said, i can understand the frustration the open beta testers are feeling over the sudden changes to the hilltop missle spam meta. i swapped out my lrm 10 and put in a srm 6 and a BAP. the spread wasnt so bad if your up close and personal brawling but that missle slot is better served with that then waiting exposed for my lock to take hold on the lrm.

[Evinthal]

The sweet and salty tears of "ECM is OP" fill my soul with joy!

Seriously. There are several effective and relatively EASY ways to counter ECM. Learn to use them. Here I will copy and paste them from another post I made about this very same issue!

Evinthal, on 04 December 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

ECM only needs one slight change. That being allowing SSRMs to actually fire but only acting as regular SRMs.

What needs a huge change is the way people QQ over something before they do research into how to counter it.

If you are crying over ECM here are some tips:

TAG will allow you and your team mates to lock onto the TAGed target so long as the TAGing unit are not in the enemies ECM bubble.

Direct fire weapons still hit ECM cloaked targets.

Thermal still picks out targets under an enemy ECM bubble.

Increase your situation awareness. On the right hand side of your screen you will see icons if you are being jammed, this is represented by an icon similar to the reception icons on cellular phones. If your team has an ECM and the enemy does too, have your ECM counter theirs by setting it to counter mode.

ECM is a dead give away that you are within 180 meters of an enemy. If you see yourself being jammed, start looking around for the source. ECM will even work though walls such as the caves in frozen city or forest colony. Be warned though that if you are packing ECM this can work against you too, it is a double edged sword.

If you can pick out what mech is carrying the ECM, get coordinated fire onto it to take it down quickly. This removes the enemies ability to disrupt you.



In my eyes ECM is probably THE BIGGEST addition to the information warfare pillar of this game. It brings more meta to the table than pretty much any thing else has to this point.

ECM encourages team work, plain and simple, and people really need to learn that this is a team game. Lone wolfing it will never cut it.

[FallenFactol]

ECM is awesome. The game actually feels like Mechwarrior again, not mobile missile artillery warrior. MW has been more about brawling then about missiles. Missiles are support weapons, in tabletop a team with nothing but missiles will lose. Yes missiles have their place and the ECM can use a slight decrease, though I think PGI did the right thing and the game is better for it.

[TopDawg]

Judging from this weapon balance post in command chair, it seems unlikely ECM is going to be toned down. I honestly don't think ECM is as out of whack as many people are exclaiming it to be, nor do I know if it even is at all (hard to say from only one day of play); although the proposed TAG change seems a bit excessive (I was thinking maybe around 600m).

I like what ECM has done to the game. It has made it more complex and increased the level of strategy. David Sirlin refers to this as yomi layers in one of his chapters/essays (some more reading if you're interested in competitive gaming or that kind of thing, and a shameless plug from/to our forums lol).

All in all I think yesterday's patch was a good patch. ECM adds layers of strategy that were absent before. Perhaps it is indeed a bit over the top, or perhaps the proposed TAG change will bring it back to the 'appropriate level', or maybe it is actually turns out to be fine as it is now, but regardless I don't think it currently is anywhere near as bad as people are exclaiming it to be.

[Veevslav]

Gauss needed a nerf so lets give 3 mechs in the game a system that slows the projectiles to a near stop so an atlas can dodge it.

A/C 2/5 shake was way to high, lets implement the same system before to slow those bullets or jam the guns automatically after one shot.

A/C 20's are fine since guass was preffered over them so we can leave them alone.... for now....

Laser boats are way op so lets add armor that completely nullifies them or a force field that reduces the damage output of them by 90% and make it 200 meters in a radius around the mech....


EMC may not be as broken as it feels, but the net code is and it makes players that were fine and awesome during closed beta rant and cuss now because they have messed the game up so badly.

Streaks were a must for handling light mechs. Or laser boats and luck. Teleporting mechs saw to that. Yes gauss cats were fun for legging a jenner or commando, but it took very little skill and more luck that they would not suddenly teleport on you.

The projectiles fire off at random locations, sometimes where you were aiming when you fired and sometimes where you are aiming currently. I have had them shoot a place that was never aimed at and was almost below me at the time.

Now what the EMC has done is make it so bad mech pilots that dont know how to use terrain to block LRM fire can survive and thrive. That sure adds a lot of strategy to the game. It also speaks volume about their skill level.


Guys I like all the weapons and want them all usable. Currently ECM is broken, net code is broken, the firing mechanics on ballistics and srm's is a dice toss as to where it will actually go when it fires. Yeah the game is awesome open beta. Can you devs roll it back to the playable condition it was 3 months ago because your fixes are ruining the game.

[Leroy Jenkens]

Veevslav, on 05 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Gauss needed a nerf so lets give 3 mechs in the game a system that slows the projectiles to a near stop so an atlas can dodge it.

A/C 2/5 shake was way to high, lets implement the same system before to slow those bullets or jam the guns automatically after one shot.

A/C 20's are fine since guass was preffered over them so we can leave them alone.... for now....

Laser boats are way op so lets add armor that completely nullifies them or a force field that reduces the damage output of them by 90% and make it 200 meters in a radius around the mech....


EMC may not be as broken as it feels, but the net code is and it makes players that were fine and awesome during closed beta rant and cuss now because they have messed the game up so badly.

Streaks were a must for handling light mechs. Or laser boats and luck. Teleporting mechs saw to that. Yes gauss cats were fun for legging a jenner or commando, but it took very little skill and more luck that they would not suddenly teleport on you.

The projectiles fire off at random locations, sometimes where you were aiming when you fired and sometimes where you are aiming currently. I have had them shoot a place that was never aimed at and was almost below me at the time.

Now what the EMC has done is make it so bad mech pilots that dont know how to use terrain to block LRM fire can survive and thrive. That sure adds a lot of strategy to the game. It also speaks volume about their skill level.


Guys I like all the weapons and want them all usable. Currently ECM is broken, net code is broken, the firing mechanics on ballistics and srm's is a dice toss as to where it will actually go when it fires. Yeah the game is awesome open beta. Can you devs roll it back to the playable condition it was 3 months ago because your fixes are ruining the game.

So, ECM slows down our bullets too?

[Ginga121]

No... The issue is that everyone wants to be able to do everything for themselves which is stupid. My mech is specialised for hiding my team or moving very quickly to hunt enemy ECM's. I don't do loads of damage.

I use my ECM/TAG mech to counter enemy ECM's. If my team don't back me up when I do this, I die.

If 1 friendly light mech follows me around the map we can quite easily pick of any enemy ECM Lights or TAG the ECM Atlas so it can be LRM'd.

You just need to work more as a team now, something that some people aren't happy with.

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

from a table-top POV, its pretty close to the rules set by catalyst in the latest books, both in use and in countering. from a gamers POV i find it fully acceptable to deal with. i stayed under the umbrella of one ECM today, and the other mech that had ECM turned his to counter via a typed message in team chat. as for the enemys ecm raven, a cataphract cored him with autocannons and lasers. unless your against using well balanced mechs with both lasers and missles, you shouldnt have an issue with ecm in its current format.

[Veevslav]

Ginga121, on 05 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

No... The issue is that everyone wants to be able to do everything for themselves which is stupid. My mech is specialised for hiding my team or moving very quickly to hunt enemy ECM's. I don't do loads of damage.

I use my ECM/TAG mech to counter enemy ECM's. If my team don't back me up when I do this, I die.

If 1 friendly light mech follows me around the map we can quite easily pick of any enemy ECM Lights or TAG the ECM Atlas so it can be LRM'd.

You just need to work more as a team now, something that some people aren't happy with.

Then there would be no complaint about balancing it so that it raises your heat to 99% of shut down and if you fire any weapons you shut down. That would be specialized. Right now there is minimal cost to using it, 1.5 tons and 2 slots.... ewww not even the requirements to mount an ssrm 2.......

Geist Null, on 05 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

from a table-top POV, its pretty close to the rules set by catalyst in the latest books, both in use and in countering. from a gamers POV i find it fully acceptable to deal with. i stayed under the umbrella of one ECM today, and the other mech that had ECM turned his to counter via a typed message in team chat. as for the enemys ecm raven, a cataphract cored him with autocannons and lasers. unless your against using well balanced mechs with both lasers and missles, you shouldnt have an issue with ecm in its current format.

TT rules lists something completely different than what they have implemented. Canon says something different than what they have implemented. What you are doing is justifying bad players that are afraid of LRM's because they cant use cover.

Edited by Veevslav, 05 December 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Sen]

I offer the following olive branch to the people complaining ECM is overpowered:

Remove it from the atlas.

Let's be honest here. . the raven is NOT exactly the epitome of mech evolution. It wasn't great BEFORE MwO, and MwO has performed a miracle: It made one raven variant viable.

I can't comment on the Cicada, I don't own one. The 2D commando. .well. . it's not MY fault nobody knows how to use lasers. . I mean jeez, I couldn't even fit more than stock ARMOR on the stupid thing after 3 streaks, ammo, and a med laser. I

I hate relying on streaks. . but it's a commando, there aren't many efficient viable options.

I've seen matches where I've blanketed my entire team, only to have the other team base rush under the cover of ECM and cap. I have waded through 4 enemy mechs while repeatedly stalking an A1 streakpult and eventually dropping him. I cannot *TELL* you how awesome it feels to know that somewhere, some poor S.O.B. with no skill was QQing into his cheerios because I was beating him to a bloody pulp with a commando. . and there wasn't NOTHIN' he could do about it!

This morning I tried to run my 7d jenner for one match. we did not have ECM. We got our tails kicked. The reason: Streaks on every stupid mech + 2 A1 streakpults. They essentially duo'd our entire team.

Nae. . .ECM is not overpowered. . IT IS JUST PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Illydth]

There's probably a significant amount of QQ on both sides about ECM, What I want to do with feedback here is identify what I saw and what I didn't see and let everyone work out what it means on their own.

"Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:
The weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM.
The behaviour that weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM..
A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the ECM stats to improve balance."

Played several matches last night with ECM in effect, both in and out of ECM equipped mechs. Generally I was running 1 of 4 mechs: ECM Equipped Striker D-DC, LRM Boat Cat, LRM Boat Atlas and SRM 6 Cat.

LRM Boats:
-----------------------
I can't help but feel that the entire "support" method of play has been dramatically neutered...or changed significantly at least. If it was the attempt to make mechs more mobile on the field and to reduce "Post up and Rain Fire" you've done a tremendous job. A static mech is a dead mech in this game.

I can't help, however, feel that this has nullified the entire "support" method of play. Strikers (will get into some of that later) and Scout play hasn't changed a whole lot, but support play...which has ALWAYS been find a place on the battlefield to cover the most area and lend fire to problematic targets has taken a hit with ECM.

My first game playing an LRM fire support cat, I posted up, as I always do, and within 2 minutes was taken down by 2 commandos and a streak cat which I never saw coming. I wasn't covered by ECM since my main force had moved up to engage. I saw the exact same problem with the rest of the games also...even when trying to stay "up with" the rest of my team.

In essence there is no such thing as long range support at this point, thoughclose range fire support is still possible (though LRMs are a bad platform for that). The only option is either to split your force by providing "guard mechs" who have to stand back and do nothing to protect the fire support mechs (more on this in a sec) or eliminate LRMs from your arsenal completely...my groups last night decided to mothball our LRMs in favor of strikers and fast mechs since the bang for the buck of an LRM build is no longer positive on the risk vs. reward scale.

This may be an intended change, if so you've accomplished it. If not, I believe you should counter ECM's benefit (or maybe most of ECM's benefit) with Beagle...or you need to WIDELY and UBIQUITOUSLY expand what models can run ECM.

In essence, fire support now only functions either if you are up in the face of the enemy (in which case you're mostly just more strikers) with the ECM equipped mechs, or if you post up ECM based guard mechs who aren't contributing to the overall battle. Note, you've discouraged this tactic as well by decreasing CBILL rewards for non-active team members...unless you are actively destroying components and hunting mechs you're making less money...which is what "guard" mechs would be forced to encounter.

Streak Boats
--------------------
As far as I can tell, streak boats are largely unaffected. If the entry of ECM was an intent to help nurf the somewhat overpoweredness of streaks, the change didn't work. ECM does, indeed, nullify streak cats in SOME situations, but by and large they're JUST as effective as they always have been...and were as ubiquitous on the battlefield last night as ever. The fact is that in the chaos of battle you cannot be 100% covered by ECM and the moment you aren't streak cats eat you alive just like they always have. They have to be slightly smarter about who they are targeting, but it doesn't seem to have stopped streaks much.

It should say something that the new most popular build out there is a commando with ECM and 3 streaks on it.

If ECM was intended to reduce the effectiveness of Streak, it's failed...misserably.

General GamePlay
-------------------------
As someone put it last night:

In a game where voice coms are everything but which doesn't implement in game voice coms, you've now removed the ability to even see where your teammates are? How is anyone not a pre-made group supposed to play together or even communicate with each other?

While I appreciate "hidden strikes" as a tactic for this game, ECM is a bit much. There's no possible way a 25 ton mech should be able to sneak up on you, even without radar. Note that in a tabletop game, a mech equipped with ECM on it is still visible on the tabletop. That's not the case here in MWO. Satalite doesn't show the position, radar doesn't show the position and there's no sound cascading from miles off coming at you...meaning that something, literally, can slip into your 6 and the first time you'll know about it is when you're getting hit from behind.

This part of ECM is getting pretty ridiculous...ECM is starting to = Hide in Shadows unless you make it a point to look around a lot...you cannot maintain situational awareness AND missile lock at the same time...another strike against anyone playing "support".

Conclusions
---------------------------
I appreciate the necessity of ECM in the game. LRM boating was definitely overpowered in the last couple patches. I just think there needs to be a harder counter to ECM than "MORE ECM!"

I believe something like beagle active probe (something more broadly available and PERSONAL) should nullify much of ECM's benefits...at least in the department of radar identification of mechs. I appreciate missile lock being slower...or even non-existant under ECM...but hiding the mech and all of it's buddies completely in the way this game lays out is not working in my opinion.

From a changes department I"d recommend the following:

* BAP doubles the range for ECM Covered Mech detection...instead of 200m with ECM it becomes 400m. Personally I'd like this extended to something like 500m (outside of anything but mid/long range weaponry so that those with shorter range weapons...like streaks...have to show themselves before being able to attack).

* ECM Maintains it's Lock Reduction and information identification benefits (100% slower?) but once a mech has been locked for a certain time (or remains within visible/target range for a certain time) the effects of ECM are removed, allowing missile lock...this allows LRMs to eventually lock and fire on targets without allowing streaks an easier play.

In essence I'd like to see a piece of equipment (and I think BAP is appropriate) I can personally put on my own mech that REDUCES the effectiveness of ECM.

I completely agree that ECM should make it harder for LRM boats, but it shouldn't be an I win button...and at this point I feel LRM effectiveness in a fire support role has been so greatly reduced as to be of very limited use.

I appreciate the comments by those frustrated by the last 2 patches of LRM dominance. LRMs shouldn't rule the battlefield as the only way to play. ECM belongs in the game, there's no question about it.

That said, in table top, if a light mech runs out alone into the middle of the field it gets stomped. If a light mech goes one on one with an atlas, it gets stomped. That too just isn't happening right now. That too doesn't meet with the "mechwarrior feel." Right now, ultrafast lights are dominating the battlefield...it's no wonder that on 3 of the matches I played last night there were upwards of 6 ravens and commandos on the field in a group of 8...and they won. That isn't the way Mechwarrior is played either. At least when you could lock an ultrafast light you could protect yourself...sort of the scissors to the paper so to speak. That's gone now.

Probably missing several things here, but these are just some initial ideas...half baked though they are.

What I do know is that I am a fire support player. I'm not a twitch gamer and am only "semi" competent in a brawler position. It felt good to stay out of the heat of combat and provide fire support to my group...I could play tactically and maintain awareness of the battle and it's progress...command, so to speak.

That ability, at least I feel, has been taken away in large part by ECM. No single piece of equipment should be able to ELIMINATE an entire style of play from the game...and at this point, this is what's happened...at least *I* am far less effective than I have EVER been in this game.

Edited by Illydth, 05 December 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[Tadrith]

It's very simple. Adapt to the game as it is now or die. If you keep dying over and over either take a step back and look at your tactics and figure out what you are doing that isn't working or go play a balanced FPS like Battlefield or COD where you can get knifed in the back by someone with all the perks... oh wait that isn't balanced either.


In all seriousness tho me and my Clan have had to rethink our tactics now that ECM has come out, That is a good thing as it adds to the game. Do I think ECM is perfect? No, but I do think that the game is better for it.

[Ginga121]

Veevslav, on 05 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Then there would be no complaint about balancing it so that it raises your heat to 99% of shut down and if you fire any weapons you shut down. That would be specialized. Right now there is minimal cost to using it, 1.5 tons and 2 slots.... ewww not even the requirements to mount an ssrm 2.......

Now you're just being ridiculous. An LRM Catapult is specialised for shooting with LRM's from long range. That doesn't mean it's not allowed Medium Pulse Lasers to shoot people who get close up.

An Atlas could be specialised for close range fighting. That doesn't mean it's not allowed an LRM to shoot at people a bit further away.

What you are saying is that because my Raven is specifically set up to hunt and eliminate enemy ECM's (----> WHICH HELPS MY TEAM <----) that I'm not allowed to do damage?

Specialised means it's very good at a specific role BUT it is not limited to that role. I don't do a lot of damage. I rely on my team to do that when I expose the enemy ECM mech.

[FallenFactol]

[color="#333333"]ECM has made MWO back into a Mechwarrior game. [/color]

[steelblueskies]

gbrown, on 05 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

In the previous versions of MWO ECM did not eliminate the ability to lock on it just made it more difficult, especially at distance, but once the target got within a certain range I could lock on and I could always use line of sight weapons. That said, this is just like the complaints about LRMs and Gause-Cats. We will come up with tactics to deal with ECM just like we did with the others. Then in a month or so something else will come out, probably BAP, and the people who built their strategies around ECM will be as unhappy as the people who built theirs around LRMs. We will persevere.

ecm in previous versions of mwo, really. you mean the effect implemented on the 4th to actually do something for the first time?

so this "something" it was doing prior... good way to invalidate any opinion you put forth. also bap already has been out. ecm cancels it out, as stated in the command chair post put up about ecm, for about a week prior to the live release of ecm. i find it ironic you aren't the first person in this thread to make that comment erroneously.

[Snib]

Illydth, on 05 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

LRM Boats:
-----------------------
I can't help but feel that the entire "support" method of play has been dramatically neutered...or changed significantly at least. If it was the attempt to make mechs more mobile on the field and to reduce "Post up and Rain Fire" you've done a tremendous job. A static mech is a dead mech in this game.

...


Streak Boats
--------------------
As far as I can tell, streak boats are largely unaffected. If the entry of ECM was an intent to help nurf the somewhat overpoweredness of streaks, the change didn't work. ECM does, indeed, nullify streak cats in SOME situations, but by and large they're JUST as effective as they always have been...and were as ubiquitous on the battlefield last night as ever. The fact is that in the chaos of battle you cannot be 100% covered by ECM and the moment you aren't streak cats eat you alive just like they always have. They have to be slightly smarter about who they are targeting, but it doesn't seem to have stopped streaks much.

What a load of bull. You QQ about LRMs and try to keep a straight face saying Streaks are not affected? If anything Streaks are much more affected. LRM boats never could defend against light mechs sneaking/racing up on them. The main target of streaks however were exactly those lights and they cannot engage them anymore, either. And should a target really wander out of ECM protection (which is fairly difficult considering it's a 360m diameter around each ECM mech) then it's far easier to target it with LRM than with SSRM.

Both LRM and SSRM are still viable in PUGs if your team's ECM properly counters their ECM - although the added difficulty is that you don't necessarily have any ECM to counter theirs - the MM does not balance it.

[Axcend]

after playing another 10-15 games since my last comment I want to point something out to everyone. ESPECIALLY to the devs:

The team with the most ECMs, wins. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. If it logs the games with mechs and their eq, please do a check on it. I have never seen a team with less ECMs (except maybe by 1) than the other win. All you've done instead of balancing the game is make it easy to make a winning team.

Either everyone is going to start using lasers, or they are going to start using ECMs. ECMs > Lasers so expect EVERYONE to roll with ECMs now.

Make ECMs stop ALL lock on targets from any players, not just enemy ones. That would immediately stop all this ECM team stacking or everyone might just start using lasers. Then rockets would be pointless to even have in the game.


Yes, I am now saving for a Raven now because that's all you need on a team to win games.

[Shakespeare]

Some more thoughts after many 8 man games and quite a few PUG matches over last few days:

1.) Other EW tech should not be so easily dismissed. BAP, Artemis, TAG should convey some benefit even with ECM. Soft counters would have to be carfully tuned (i.e., having an item that just counters ECM would eliminate information warfare before it even begins), but disabling them almost entirely seems like wasted potential. TAG could use a range boost at least. Give us a few more tools to nudge that ECM bubble!

2.)Unless/until weight, chassis, or BV restrictions are in, it might be advisable to pull ECM from the AS7-DC. I know, I know, it sounds like whining or nerfing things I don't like, but 6 man ECM atlases sitting around base doing nothing is incredibly boring, and floods the map with ECM. restricting to lights would help the team dynamic, making lights more valuable. Give the DC something else to justify it's command role, and let the lights handle the sneaky stuff.

2b.) Alternatively, give counter mode a slight boost in number or effect. I don't think 5 or more ECM was the intent, but it was the result, of keeping weight restrictions off. Less top-heavy teams can have a real bear of a time countering all of those, without resorting to the same tactic themselves. Best, closest matches I've had lately have been where both teams had a few ECM. Worst and most boring ones were where we and/or they had mostly atlases, since bringing many lights to counter would have just had us underpowered.

2c.) Alternatively alternatively, reduce the 'stacking' of ECM. If multiple ECM just provided redundancy, instead of increased protection, maybe we wouldn't see it as much. That's mostly hearsay, though.

So, on it's own, and even in the PUG rounds, ECM seems to be doing ok. But on the 8-man front, it's aggregate use is too high, and too easy. More chassis restriction, either on an ECM or matchmaking level, would ease the strain and allow more strategies to flourish. "AS7-DC or ****" isn't much fun, and it's far too easy to get away with, especially since the game mode already encourages defensive play.

All that said, I love the mechanic itself. Just needs to be more self-limiting.

Gnight!

Edited by Shakespeare, 05 December 2012 - 05:28 PM.