2028 replies to this topic

[JimSuperBleeder]

I have played 8 or so games and I'm not even joking when I say that the enemy team didn't leave spawn in any of the matches. So if you think that this is making the game any better, I dunno...

You can't advance on a team doing that. You have no missile support to soften them up. The only option is to charge in there and hope for the best. That or just let the clock run out.

[Morikuro]

Since it's being discussed, an interesting way to counter ECM might be for artemis 4 equipped lrm mechs to simply be able to only target the ECM broadcasting mechs. In real life, some anti-radiation missiles will home in the jamming signals if they lose acquisition of targets due to jamming. And what's Artemis 4? Improved sensor and guidance fits.

Though the effectiveness of the ECM suites kind of implies they're putting out so much EM energy they would begin to degrade their own platforms' sensors and those of their teammates. There's also no way that the friendly sensors should be able to be totally unaffected while the enemy sensors degrade to that degree. I mean, this is serious jamming - it's to the point where it's blocking the ability to target something that throws out the amount of electromagnetic radiation that an active battlemech does till very close by, shielded reactor or not. It's very likely dangerous for people to be exposed to. How do you know it's not slowly cooking you in your cockpit? EM waves don't discriminate like they're magical. And it's not like one side has their sensors 'perfectly calibrated to deal with theirs while the enemy can't counter with the same thing', don't these jammers get licensed out in BT-universe to various manufacturers for different mech variants? Plus everyone's stealing everyone else's technology and manufacturing it without licenses - it's not like one faction has a totally unique version of the technology that can't be worked around.

[Stabbitha]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

>Game is perfect.
>ECM gets implemented.
>Game unplayable.

ECM should only benefit the mech equipping it - it's currently way to easy to abuse.

"Abuse" as in "do what was intended", ie add tactical and strategic options to a game dominated by cheese builds?

Methinks we have a streakcat owner here with sand in their girlparts...

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Incorrect.

This is a PUG game, with every player out for themselves. That is the game the Devs have made, and ECM is the final proof that this is what they intend. There is no means in the game to connect to other players to form groups, and no way to communicate if you did to set up your group prior to dropping. Both of these are hard and undeniable proof that this game is anti-team, and desired to be so by the Dev team.

The lengths they have gone to to remove the only team-based weapon in the game (LRMs) is also proof how much the Dev team is determined to not have teams in their game.

Dunno, my lrmboat has no trouble when my lance's commando jams their ECM and TAG's their ECM mech. At which point, I start dropping LRM's on them while our second assault mech opens up with direct fire if visible. Have you ever seen an Atlas D-DC evaporate? It's fun... \= )

But yeah, that probably involves teamwork and, ya know, enough intelligence to be considered sentient so it might be a bit tough for some people...

[Blitz Krieg]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

>Game is perfect.

Lol Whut?

[JimSuperBleeder]

Stabbitha, on 05 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

"Abuse" as in "do what was intended", ie add tactical and strategic options to a game dominated by cheese builds?

Methinks we have a streakcat owner here with sand in their girlparts...



Dunno, my lrmboat has no trouble when my lance's commando jams their ECM and TAG's their ECM mech. At which point, I start dropping LRM's on them while our second assault mech opens up with direct fire if visible. Have you ever seen an Atlas D-DC evaporate? It's fun... \= )

But yeah, that probably involves teamwork and, ya know, enough intelligence to be considered sentient so it might be a bit tough for some people...

Premades don't have as big of an issue as the pug players do.

[Illydth]

Brown Hornet, on 05 December 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

I know ECM prevents lock on so people are blobbing, but you can still free-fire lrms without a lock and score hits. Is anyone try this out? It does require a bit of judgment but if they blob then can pay off.

???

1) LRMs spread out more than SRMs do. Dumb Firing LRMs from anywhere but "in your face" means that most of them will miss.

2) LRMs have a minimum range. Every try to hit a mech with SRMs from 200+ out? It doesn't work.

3) Why? Just....why? Why would I equip X Tons of 1/4 functional armament on my mech that is much better replaced with something that's actually fully functional? I appreciate that dumb fire on LRMs could work, if you can aim it right, and if the mech isn't moving, and if the stars align...but why would I bother when I can use that same weight to equip an AC20 or Large Laser?

Look, lets say I told you I was sending you into combat and you had 2 choices of weapons:
* A pistol that was effective to a range of 0 - 200 feet.
* A automatic rifle that was effective from 0 to 1000 feet.

Under what conditions would you take the pistol over the automatic rifle? There aren't any. You wouldn't.

Same here. Under what controllable conditions would you choose to take LRMs in this game at this point? On the off chance that ECM isn't on the opposing team? If you were putting together a custom group, why would you pick a mech with LRMs for your team? What happens when you face a team with mostly ECM...now you're 7 mechs on 8.

ECM has removed the viability of LRMs. Yes they still work UNDER SOME CONDITIONS. Name me the laser or ballistic weapon that works only under SOME conditions? Where's my "light transducer" that creates a light distortion field out to 200m range that dissipates all laser fire to all mechs under my umbrella? Where's my "force field generator" that bounces ballistic ammo off of my bubble? Where's my hard counter to any other weapon in the game?

Why have we targeted "Support" as a less viable way to play the game than scout or brawler? Why is THIS the only game that nurfs Rangers?

I've got no problem with ECM doing exactly what it's doing to those who equip it. I have no problem with an enemy ECM field surrounding ME from eliminating my ability to target lock. I have huge problems with a passive piece of equipment I cannot do anything about stopping me from playing.

I'm going to ask this again. Lets take this to extremes and suggest that every opponent group I face has 8 ECM equipped mechs. How do LRMs continue to survive in the game? Then tell me one other weapon in the game that faces this problem?
Just because MOST matches aren't 8 ECM mechs against opponents doesn't mean it can't get there...I already saw two of that battle last night.

All brawler mechs carrying LRMs as a long range solution are now removing those LRMs in place of SRMs. All brawler mechs carrying Gauss Rifles are now removing them in place of AC/20s. LRM boats are now few and far between because you can't tell if you're going to be able to do something in a match or if you're going to spend your entire (short) match trying to spot for targets that you'll never be able to fire on only to get blindsided by commando teams.

This cannot be what they were looking for when they put ECM into the game. I get they want to stop the 4 boat death rains that were happening in previous patches...I would suggest there has to be a way to do that without completely removing LRMs as a viable weapon in the game.

[HotNoob]

GalaxyBluestar, on 05 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

yes you can but you'd look like a complete fool wasteing fire power and tonnage using a weapon so innefciently, come on if we're going to be forced to use homing missles like that then we're not going to use them at all as lasers and cannons do it better. that's why the missles on the battlefield have dropped dramatically. it's too risky to hope that there's no ecms that there's tags to bail you out, that spells dead weight and lock on's already cut out before a missle arc lands on target so they were already clumsy to use, i hate using them in mwo before this patch, afterwards is just not worth risking the common brawls and flanking manourves. missles have preety much been broken cause those tons and hardpoints are all to oftern dead weight.

ECM has done it's bit not as a gadget but in brainwashing everyone to huddle and brawl now more than ever. people are just not bothered with radar anymore and always go for LOS action which turns this into a poor robot varient of any other shooter game. the heat and weapons management is the only twist this game has on any other tittle. i'm saddend to see mech warrior come to this. the scouts aren't scouting anymore they're being escourted under ecm and join in the brawl, noone wants to stand behind the lines as a support mech cause they'll be redlighted and hunted as the rest of the team stealthily races for cap. that's an all to common practice. also when both teams are under the ecm influence they play the same tactic and die. i was the only mech out in the open on snow forest and capped their base with impunity cause the ecm influenced tactics really have narrowed the gameplay down. it's just too silly.

common mech: atlas commando raven

mechs that are steady in numbers: awesome cataphract hunchback cicada <---surprised by that one

mechs on the decline: jenners catapults<---- they were too common anyways but centurions and dragons don't get the showing they deserve which is surprising as especially the dragon is made for brawling.

to summerise the maps and the equipment really do favor brawl mechs over anything long range. you really need to be cautious in a laser sniper mech or you'll be flanked far too easily, and outgunned by mechs half your size radar doesn't help at all.

Great post...

yes i have started to notice a lot of this in game... and sadly finding myself also looking for the nearest EMC

[Tesunie]

Morikuro, on 05 December 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Since it's being discussed, an interesting way to counter ECM might be for artemis 4 equipped lrm mechs to simply be able to only target the ECM broadcasting mechs. In real life, some anti-radiation missiles will home in the jamming signals if they lose acquisition of targets due to jamming. And what's Artemis 4? Improved sensor and guidance fits.

Though the effectiveness of the ECM suites kind of implies they're putting out so much EM energy they would begin to degrade their own platforms' sensors and those of their teammates. There's also no way that the friendly sensors should be able to be totally unaffected while the enemy sensors degrade to that degree. I mean, this is serious jamming - it's to the point where it's blocking the ability to target something that throws out the amount of electromagnetic radiation that an active battlemech does till very close by, shielded reactor or not. It's very likely dangerous for people to be exposed to. How do you know it's not slowly cooking you in your cockpit? EM waves don't discriminate like they're magical. And it's not like one side has their sensors 'perfectly calibrated to deal with theirs while the enemy can't counter with the same thing', don't these jammers get licensed out in BT-universe to various manufacturers for different mech variants? Plus everyone's stealing everyone else's technology and manufacturing it without licenses - it's not like one faction has a totally unique version of the technology that can't be worked around.

ECM is just Electronic counter messures. It doesn't spit out radiation, but rather counter signals or just generalized static over most sensor frequencies. It's be like finding the police band, and then playing loud music on it so they can't hear each other. But yet, your own com frequencies are untouched, as you don't play your disruption onto your coms.

I don't know what you though EMC was, but it's not a microwave, nor fusion reactor waste...

[Vrekgar]

2 changes that would make it balanced.

1. Make it generate heat while operating. Give it the ability to be turned off, so you can manage heat issues.

2. Give it a third operation mode, and rebalance the 2 existing modes. Three modes are, Screen Self, Screen Allies, Disrupt Enemy. Disrupt is the same as counter mode is now. Screen self allows the ECM equipped mech ONLY to have the effects on it. Screen Allies gives ECM effects to allies within 180m who are not running Screen Allies themselves.

The second change makes it a choice to run like a ghost yourself and reap the benefits, or to screen your allies at the cost of needing some protection.

[NemesisXIII]

Atlas DDC trains... This is NOT cool.

[MECHWARRlOR]

FOR 8:8 MATCH,

THIS IS AN ATLAS-D-DC ONLINE

[USMC Iceman]

ECM dosn't Block ERPPC or Any other Direct Fire weapons. AC20 still hits. And so do SRMs.

That you can use these tools to hit them is very shocking. Try and build a Atlas D DC 8 man and see how 8 lights work them over ... just has they always have.

[batesman]

Apologies for linking to a post in the General forum, but here I have a topic where people are submitting their ideas on how to balance out the LRM / stream abuse and the implementation of ECM, without bashing.

It's clear that we were at a tipping point and needed something to even out the prevalence of LRM and streak boats, but ECM may be a little too powerful or unbalanced in terms of cost / benefit. Anyway, I hope the devs will see this and take the players suggestions to heart.

http://mwomercs.com/...-how-to-fix-it/

Thanks!

[AlphaPiAlpha]

ECM is "kind of" OP.

Saw some smaller mechs take apart a group of medium mechs, just hugging them under protection of ECM.
There was no ECM on the "heavy" side, so the just got torn apart... Without "collision" and falling, a bunch of Ravens (or other ECM small mechs) can be a real pain.

In the old days, the LRM boat was a real supporter. Get the brawlers in and the enemies attack them. A good positioned LRM boat could be a real support. Now it is... often useless.

A first idea:
1) ECM may completly cloak on real longe distances... lets say >600m
2) ECM cloaks and uncloaks, cloaks, uncloaks, etc ... on >400m (you just don't get a "permanent" lock)
3) ECM does not completly cloak on 200m, it just takes longer to get a lock for the Streaks, so you have to keep the enemy under your crosshair, perhaps smaller "radius" (you REALLY have to keep crosshair on him).

Edited by Gartenlaube, 05 December 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Grym]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

>Game is perfect.
>ECM gets implemented.
>Game unplayable.

ECM should only benefit the mech equipping it - it's currently way to easy to abuse.

Allow me to translate.

>My streak cat was the perfect lone wolf that had huge advantages over any other mech/some groups of mechs.
>ECM gets implemented seemingly to make builds like this unplayable in most matchs since this is a team game.
>My streak cat is forced to wait on the sidelines hoping there is no ECM. Now ECM lights pounce on me along with every other player making my mech a walking death trap.

I would like to dominate everything on the battlefield again. But since that is unlikely, how about only letting ECM defend one mech, that way i can go back to taking out half the other team seemingly by myself.

[x Marder x]

The only useless function ECM has is the "you cant send chat" Groups and in future house/MERC groups give a damn about it. They use TS³ VENT and ECM is doing nothing to cripple there communication. The PUG stompers just got a overpowered tool to erase that little com that was in PUG´s to zero. Change no chat to chat delay or try to incorporate TS³ and vent in your game so ECM works there too.

[DaffyGKH]

Stabbitha, on 05 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

"Abuse" as in "do what was intended", ie add tactical and strategic options to a game dominated by cheese builds?

Methinks we have a streakcat owner here with sand in their girlparts...

Perhaps you missed my post where I bluntly stated that I play as a brawler!

I am stating that ECM needs to be nerfed in a couple ways or another because it has broken all missile-related aspects of the game, unless you roll in with 3 ECMs of your own and overpower the other team's. Which is ridiculous thing to have to do, just to get some LRM support.

There have always been missile boats and scouts and snipers and brawlers, Now something has been implemented that has effectively made an entire mech type completely useless. In my eyes - whether it's beneficial to me or not - that is nonsense.

Grym, on 05 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Allow me to translate.

>My streak cat was the perfect lone wolf that had huge advantages over any other mech/some groups of mechs.
>ECM gets implemented seemingly to make builds like this unplayable in most matchs since this is a team game.
>My streak cat is forced to wait on the sidelines hoping there is no ECM. Now ECM lights pounce on me along with every other player making my mech a walking death trap.

I would like to dominate everything on the battlefield again. But since that is unlikely, how about only letting ECM defend one mech, that way i can go back to taking out half the other team seemingly by myself.

I apologize, but your translation is more incorrect than I can find words for!

Edited by DaffyGKH, 05 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[TopDawg]

I apologize ahead of time, but I can't possibly ready through ~28 pages of replies; I'm just tossing my feedback into the pile. This is mostly from running 8s (with roughly half Horizon members and half people we picked up wanting to play 8s).

Here is my other post from another thread regarding it:

Quote

Judging from this weapon balance post in command chair, it seems unlikely ECM is going to be toned down. I honestly don't think ECM is as out of whack as many people are exclaiming it to be, nor do I know if it even is at all (hard to say from only one day of play); although the proposed TAG change seems a bit excessive (I was thinking maybe around 600m).

I like what ECM has done to the game. It has made it more complex and increased the level of strategy. David Sirlin refers to this as yomi layers in one of his chapters/essays (some more reading if you're interested in competitive gaming or that kind of thing, and a shameless plug from/to our forums lol).

All in all I think yesterday's patch was a good patch. ECM adds layers of strategy that were absent before. Perhaps it is indeed a bit over the top, or perhaps the proposed TAG change will bring it back to the 'appropriate level', or maybe it is actually turns out to be fine as it is now, but regardless I don't think it currently is anywhere near as bad as people are exclaiming it to be.

It honestly seems pretty balanced for the most part (most things typically require tweaking to get 'right'). As I said above, it adds a layer of strategy that's very welcomed. TAGs help out tremendously with ECM, other ECMs obviously, and focusing enemy ECMs are all very viable strategies for dealing with ECM. The meta will catch up and I think most people's complaining will subside for the most part.

[Grym]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

There have always been missile boats and scouts and snipers and brawlers, Now something has been implemented that has effectively made an entire mech type completely useless. In my eyes - whether it's beneficial to me or not - that is nonsense.

You want a brawler? Try doing it without easy mode SSRM spam.

[Stabbitha]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I recognize that some players who oriented their playstyle around brawling will love ECM - while players who oriented their playstyle around missiles are finding the game to hardly be worth playing.

A balance between both needs to be found, in my opinion - not the near-absolute nullification of missiles, which are a very valid aspect of the game, and should still be supported to fair extents.

This is 100% incorrect.

We dropped last night with 1 commando (streak/ecm), 2 D-DC's (me=lrmboat, other = direct fire) and a srm6 A1 cat iirc.

The two games we lost were 1. ECM rush the base, 6 mechs all on base meant we didn't have time to get back as the pug players followed us rather than spreading out and 2. a very close match where the last the outcapped us at the last few seconds of the match.

I had no problems racking up kills in my lrmboat with our commando going counter at 200m and TAG'ing their ECM mech at which point we tore them apart.

Every team we faced had at least 1, if not 2-3, ECM mechs.

The difference was team coordination and combined tactics. Our commando and cat lead, the two D-DC's follow (with me about 100 back from the direct fire and when targets present, we destroy them.

Once you jam ECM, streaks are 100% working again, so it wouldn't matter if it was a SRM6 A1 or a streak, once the jam is on, the fun begins.

I'm not saying ECM couldn't stand an adjustment but this game is a hell of a lot more fresh now that it isn't all fotm cheesebuilds dominating.