2028 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Just a fun thought about hard counters - why not add a soft/medium hard counter to the ECM.

Radiation seeking missiles - you know the type that are used to pulverise AA radar sites http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

Simple concept> If you are putting out enough signal to jam or disrupt an enemy system, you are putting out enough power to be homed in on. It's the same as the old saying "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

If you carry an ECM LRMS should home in on your *** - sure let it hide those around you and yourself from other forms of targeting, but you had better have an AMS beside you and know how to use terrain.

Seriously f*** invisishielding ecm that has only ECM as its counter - take a page from real technology and make ECM a beacon for missiles. I would even be willing to have to carry a second type of ammo just for this purpose

Edited by Tolkien, 09 December 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

Xenok, on 09 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Rock scissor paper not balance. ECM is fine. We just need effective counters through improvements in BAP, NARC and TAG. Do not nurf ECM just fix the counters to work effectiviely

By the way nerf is spelled with an "e".

Ecm in mwo does more than was ever intended. Everything has advantges and disadvantage. If u run ecm with active radar then your radar transmission should be seen. You should show up as unidentified. So you can "blind" others to your presence but must give up something as well.

Bap should restore near nprmal sensor/targetting function But at reduced range

[100 Tonne]

For what it is worth here are my suggestions, having played both 4 man and 8 man drops.

ECM should half the distance for lock on (that way beagle would be useful as it has longer line of sight), double lock on time for missiles (keeping streak cats in check as well as LRM boats) .

Keep tag at the coming 700 mtres, have narc work through ECM, still have ECM jam other ECM’s as it does now.

Edited by Big Grimm, 09 December 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Latvanis]

My idea of balancing ECM. Take it out from Atlas and make it weight 5-7 tons, so that scout mech sacrifices a lot for using it.
Results.
1. Light mechs becoming supports and scouts for main army (As they should be). Because theyr damage will be close to nothing and they wont be able to brawl bigger mechs and harras LRM boats, wich makes nice comeback for Dragons and fast mediums. (Because there should be a rock paper siccors for LRM counter assult ,assult counter heavy/meds and meds/dragons counter LRM)
2. There wont be ECMs on every light mech. Wich makes diffirent types viable again.
3. Pubs probbably wont have any ECM (Wich is the best ,because this random whats going on there is already big enough punishament for LRM boats).

And streaks is FINE! I dont play streak cat and Personaly I newer had any problems with streak cat with my CICADA! Because i always keep my distance from them. As any normal med/light mech should do. Anything heavyer ,and strakcat is in danger it self.

[HybridTheory]

Without reading every single post here... there are definate positives and negatives to the ECM in any format.

My biggest issue with it is that in 8v8 all you see on MOST (not all...) teams is Cicada's, Ravens, Atlases, and Commandos... toss in the odd Cataphract and blam... you have an 8 man ECM squad. Some frustrations people are feeling is the exceedingly long time it took to have 8 man placed back into the game again... and then to re-introduce it along with 4 mechs that can pack ECM and it's left some people royally pissed off. I am not one of those people, however I have had more frustrating matches of late. And while I agree change is usually good I think we can have our cake and eat it too on this... personally I'd like to see the ONLY mech capable of taking ECM be the Raven. Will you see 8 man teams of all Ravens? Maybe... would be a pretty good laugh I admit but hell... I don't know much about the background and lore of Battletech, but wasn't the Raven designed to be an ECM style mech in the first place?

Anyhow I'm off to try a few new things in mechlab and see if some new strategies will work out well... I hope ECM get's tweaked but overall I'd say it is a good thing to have in game... just needs work. Oh and also... can we please please PLEASE fix some of the bugs that have been around for the last 3 months BEFORE introducing MORE new components? (The overheat power up with no damn HUD bug is probably my biggest pet peve atm... just thought I'd toss that into the mix

[steelblueskies]

D1irte, on 09 December 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

My idea of balancing ECM. Take it out from Atlas and make it weight 5-7 tons, so that scout mech sacrifices a lot for using it.
Results.
1. Light mechs becoming supports and scouts for main army (As they should be). Because theyr damage will be close to nothing and they wont be able to brawl bigger mechs and harras LRM boats, wich makes nice comeback for Dragons and fast mediums. (Because there should be a rock paper siccors for LRM counter assult ,assult counter heavy/meds and meds/dragons counter LRM)
2. There wont be ECMs on every light mech. Wich makes diffirent types viable again.
3. Pubs probbably wont have any ECM (Wich is the best ,because this random whats going on there is already big enough punishament for LRM boats).

And streaks is FINE! I dont play streak cat and Personaly I newer had any problems with streak cat with my CICADA! Because i always keep my distance from them. As any normal med/light mech should do. Anything heavyer ,and strakcat is in danger it self.

from earlier in this thread. you said "Im loving ECM! No more ******* LRMs and Streaks to kill my CICADA.
Havent seen "Incoming rockets" for quite some time. Now i can run around not worrying about freakin scrub auto lock weapon users."

so dying in your cicada due to streaks and lrms in one post, and never having trouble with them in the other.

or perhaps where you said "As i earlyer mentioned.
The best soloutin for ECM would be dubble edge sword. Where everyone (incoulding allies and you) being affected by ECM. That would fix ECM owerpowerness problem. And it would only be an option to use it. Not a disadvantage if you dont.
Now as its stand ,its too good..."

or where you said "I just got an excelent idea. ECM should kill any lock on or targeting (information) from mechs ,so if bouth teams has ECM in brawling ,you cant tell apart from ally and foe! In 8v8 matches. Mby CAMO would become even usefull? how about this idea?"

all in this thread mostly just today...

with respect, could you clarify your actual position as they seem to contradict one another, as frequent small jabby posts.

especially as you stated you are scared over game direction in another posting today.

[Chaany]

I understand the frustration that many players have with the ECM like it currently is implemented.

However it is true that this adds another layer of complexity.
What I find strange though is that ECM is shielding team mates as well.

Here is an idea about how we could keep ECM useful but reduce the OP status.
Keep two modes as it is now, but change functionality.

a. Cloak mode
In this mode the mech that is equipped with the ECM modul will become unlockable above 180m.
Everyone closer than 180m to you can lock on to you but at a very low speed.
No group cloaking anymore.

b. Disrupt mode
In this mode you actively jam your traget, but only your target, when you are 180m or closer to your target.
A jammed target should not be able to lock on to anyone. So you trade in your cloak to jam an enemy mech.
You will be lockabel by everyone except the mech you jam.

So imagine Team A is using a Raven to jam an enemy Catapult to prevent it form raining LRM death on its teammates.
Team B could either destroy or drive off the Raven or use one of their own scouts to jam that Raven, preventing it from jamming.

Beagle active probe not being able to counter ECM completely is fine in my opinion, but it should increase locking distance by 100% (eg. 360m) for the mech equipped with BAP. I suggets to keep BAP for a selection of light mechs only.
TAG and NARC should be able to break ECM "Cloak mode" to give those system some utility.

What do you think ?

[Kahna]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 09 December 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

The problem with ecm is there is no negative to it

Lrms have a minimum range and explosive ammo

Erppc have heat. Lasers have heat and u hve to keep them on target

If u want to be invisible with ecm then u should have to turn off your own active sensors and radar. ( u could still use tag as its a targeting laser). If u have active radar on u should show up as an unidentified target as opfor mechs should see you radar. Partial protection but u are "seen" due to your active transmission

Bap should Help but not obliterate ecm protection. Bap should detect at 550 meters( reduced range but not nullified by ecm)

Oh yeah. You want to fire lrm or streaks while under under ecm. U got to radiate to do it. And that negates the protection. U can be locked on at that point

Quite possibly the best argument thus far. I agree Rhino, ECM in its current state has no downside (other than not mounting it in your mech). Something this powerful SHOULD have a trade off, yet it is the only thing that doesn't...

You want to be sneaky and safe from missiles? Fine, but that same AOE Jamming should disable active targeting of all mechs within its umbrella including friendlies.

Also, how does an electronics counter measure system stop a mech from identifying thermal and visual signatures and appropriately tagging them (red triangle) as unidentified / enemy mechs.

The more powerful the weapons in this game, the more heat they generate and/or the less ammo per ton they come with. Lock-On weapons have minimum (LRM) and maximum (SSRM, LRM) ranges and explosive ammo (not to mention without PGI's 75% ammo reloads the ammo be very expensive). The more powerful 1.4 heat sinks take up ridiculous amounts of critical space, Artemis takes up extra weight, crit space and costs more for the ammo. NARC has limited range, duration and ammo. TAG likewise has limited range, must be held on target continuously and is highly visible on IR. Need I go on?

ECM only has benefits, no downside at all (again, except NOT bringing it against an ECM team).

[TheSteelRhino]

Kahna, on 09 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Quite possibly the best argument thus far. I agree Rhino, ECM in its current state has no downside (other than not mounting it in your mech). Something this powerful SHOULD have a trade off, yet it is the only thing that doesn't...

You want to be sneaky and safe from missiles? Fine, but that same AOE Jamming should disable active targeting of all mechs within its umbrella including friendlies.

Also, how does an electronics counter measure system stop a mech from identifying thermal and visual signatures and appropriately tagging them (red triangle) as unidentified / enemy mechs.

The more powerful the weapons in this game, the more heat they generate and/or the less ammo per ton they come with. Lock-On weapons have minimum (LRM) and maximum (SSRM, LRM) ranges and explosive ammo (not to mention without PGI's 75% ammo reloads the ammo be very expensive). The more powerful 1.4 heat sinks take up ridiculous amounts of critical space, Artemis takes up extra weight, crit space and costs more for the ammo. NARC has limited range, duration and ammo. TAG likewise has limited range, must be held on target continuously and is highly visible on IR. Need I go on?

ECM only has benefits, no downside at all (again, except NOT bringing it against an ECM team).

Yes! Proof that intelligent life CAN actually be found in the forums!

[USMC Iceman]

I see ECM has made a paradigm shift to Mechwarrior and in a positive way.

Why? Well it has changed the 4 man LRM Rain groups into 1 to 2 LRMS per 8 man. And Made Steak A1 Cats into weapon system that also needs more skill and team work.

So we all know by know that Tag Stop ECM from 180-450. And you don't need ECM to use it. This could be use to Tag and mark targets moving up under ECM for the TEAM to see ' aka ' paint a target for pugs or in a 8 man paint for LRMS and SSRMS. ECM is only used on 4 mechs at this time. And Tag can be put on about every mech but the A1. This now makes TAG a support system that any one can use to neutralise ECM for one ton. It also forces players to look out side of the 180m battles if they want to be more effective vs the close in 70+ alpha strike units. Yes lights can still work over most all assaults. Forcing more team work to counter the old light swarm.

It gives a strong reason to have good lights and Mediums working as scouts to find the other team. If they are using the new " Blob " push it give a easy way to light up targets for LRMS effectively stopping the push or wiping out the group as the move up. Yes they can push cave and even prior to ECM you needed Brawlers to go in and fight up close in the cave or setup kill boxes for your more ranged players.

I can't see any tactics used prior to ECM that can't sill be used just some like the SSRM Cat has become pushed into a very skilled team play system that is still very effective but is not longer so broken that it kills the game with a easy button for a win. And this I have a hard time crying about.

The main issue I see ECM has caused is that it was pushed out with 8 man drops. Many players would have had major issues running up vs other 8 man teams due to the basic issue that the other team has better skilled players and/or the better use of team work that would put the other team at a disadvantage. This happens is just about every multi player game. But you see that ECM has become the catch all for this issue.

Last ECM has also made Team work more important than ever as many very power weapon system now need 2 to 3 man teams to be effective on the battle field.

I can't see any reason to change ECM at this time due to I can still use direct fire weapons vs a ECM unit/units and have only lost the use of solo use of my SSRMS and LRMS with out TAG on my Mech or ECM and getting a " rushing " mech to run out by them self for me to hunt. Same issue you had prior to the ECM Patch.

I do admit it did take me about 48 hours to wrap my head around how ECM was effecting me and my team. What would be Great is that some one put out a training film with new systems that are added to the game so every one could get up to speed on how they effect the battles just like old WW2 films about tech as it was rolling out onto the battle field at break neck speed.

I again say thank you to the DEVs for putting some flavor back into this game. Even if you are forcing people to use team work more than they would like.

Edited by USMC Iceman, 09 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Blackie Flawless]

Before starting to nerf ECM which is great by the way as it is right now, I would suggest the following fixes for balance issues.

A : Better net-code to help targeting those pesky fast mechs.

B : Bring back knockdown with working collision damage system. Heavier mechs should have bigger punch when they collide with each other, without even considering the melee option that is in the tabletop game. Knockdown system should be based on a factor based on momentum of the colliding mechs. This is basic physics. ( p = mv. Momentum is mass multiplied by velocity.)

C : Add an option for groups (and pugs as well) to be set up against other groups based on tonnage limits. It shouldn't be too hard to include actual mech weight to the match making system. This is elementary school mathematics, who wants me to explain?

Edited by Blackie Flawless, 09 December 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[DeaconW]

USMC Iceman, on 09 December 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I again say thank you to the DEVs for putting some flavor back into this game. Even if you are forcing people to use team work more than they would like.

Teamwork...I don't think that word means what you think it means...

[Bolide]

ECM is great! Can't wait for some kind of C3 network!

[Stingz]

Tolkien, on 09 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Just a fun thought about hard counters - why not add a soft/medium hard counter to the ECM.

Radiation seeking missiles - you know the type that are used to pulverise AA radar sites http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

Simple concept> If you are putting out enough signal to jam or disrupt an enemy system, you are putting out enough power to be homed in on. It's the same as the old saying "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

If you carry an ECM LRMS should home in on your *** - sure let it hide those around you and yourself from other forms of targeting, but you had better have an AMS beside you and know how to use terrain.

Seriously f*** invisishielding ecm that has only ECM as its counter - take a page from real technology and make ECM a beacon for missiles. I would even be willing to have to carry a second type of ammo just for this purpose

We already have that in this era(3049) Listen-Kill Missiles

[DeaconW]

Bolide, on 09 December 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

ECM is great! Can't wait for some kind of C3 network!

Of course you do... http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1568209

Edited by DeaconW, 09 December 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

ECM is the new "noob" toy. ECM users should have to think about using it, not just take it for granted. Pls change the mechanic so it affects 1 targeted enemy mech only in both disrupt and counter modes. That's VERY fair for a 1.5T piece of hardware.

[CannonC0cker]

ECM is a complete game changer... just as it should be. It's great as it is.

[Neziah]

I am enjoying the way it has changed game play.

[Stingz]

Blackwand, on 09 December 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Btw the rules say:
"It could seek targets like a BAP or hide the unit mounting it like a Guardian.The use of an ECM is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems."
This means it does not totally kill the targeting system of SSRMS and LRMS, it just can be used as a counter measure against TAG and NARC, making the SSRMS and LRMS less efficient. So the ECM as it is is rather OP..

That's the outdated ECM-Prototype, Guardian doesn't do that.

Edited by Stingz, 09 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Cyrionthewise]

Love It!!!!...Fear my Raven!!