2028 replies to this topic

[Gulinborsti]

I think it is about time that PGI starts thinking about a re-work of the current ECM system. It is obviously a game breaking item that creates a rather one sided gameplay experience.

We need either a reduction of the ECM effects

• reduce / remove radius of cover for other friendly units
  
• ... generally make it less powerfull (there are plenty of suggestions already

or some viable counter meassures introduced:

• BAP to increase sensor range against ECM targets, maybe override lock on within a certain range
  
• TAG overruling ECM lock on blocking effects
  
• NARC duration increase

The idea about the current ECM implementation is not bad in general, but without counter meassures, that also make it possible for individuals to be more effective (mostly in PUGs) it enforces a certain choice of Mechs and even variants.

This is not a complain from a no-skill LRM boater (although I levelled my catapults lately and enjoy them even after the LRM introduction). ECM is simply to strong and takes a lot of options and diversity out of the current game play.

The main counter against ECM should be BAP in some way by simply reducing and / or negating certain effects (mainly sensor range and maybe missile lock ons). Being forced to field ECM as the only counter to ECM is rather .. simple minded.

Just my 2 cents ...

[TheWayfarer]

I took a long break and started playing yesterday around 10 matches. To be honest I had no fun at all with the ECMs. The 10th one was the worst, where the full enemy team was running around with Tags and ECMs. I couldn't do anything. It was a very frustrating experience.

Edited by TheWayfarer, 12 December 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[StUffz]

DeaconW, on 12 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

You, Sir, are a gentleman.



While his comment wasn't necessarily constructive, if too many people get frustrated, MWO will die and we'll have to wait another 10 years for a new MW sim. I don't think any of us want that...

Yeah, but we should keep in mind that it's beta and even though the devs are not responding, the feedbacks are quite straightforward. Maybe we see the corrections not yet but at a later stage. In the meantime we should not be in a demanding tone towards the devs and not threatening them with "... or I quit" messages.

[DeaconW]

TheWayfarer, on 12 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I took a long break and started playing yesterday around 10 matches. To be honest I had no fun at all with the ECMs. The 10th one was the worst, where the full enemy team was running around with Tags and ECMs. I couldn't do anything. It was a very frustrating experience.

Welcome to ECMonline. Try 8v8 where they add a new game called ECMAtlasonline...

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 12 December 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Yeah, but we should keep in mind that it's beta and even though the devs are not responding, the feedbacks are quite straightforward. Maybe we see the corrections not yet but at a later stage. In the meantime we should not be in a demanding tone towards the devs and not threatening them with "... or I quit" messages.

This is why I keep hammering home that the problem is the devs think it is balanced to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

One more time from the top

[Kill Dozer]

Wrede, on 04 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

ECM is OP as it makes streak usless

and streaks are the only reliable way to kill 90-140kph lag shielded scouts, four scouts shouldn't be able to decimate a group of mediums but they can because poor lag/netcode/hit detection and ECM (blocking streaks) makes them impossible to hit.

[Dormax]

DeaconW, on 12 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

You just made me think of something... imagine you are a brand new mwo player. You install, create your account, log in, get in your trial much and in your first match you can't get radar contract on half the op for and half your weapons won't work. You die being circle strafed by two lights you can't hit with ANY of your weapons. I probably couldn't press "uninstall" fast enough...but ECM in its current form is great for the state of the game according to some here...<shaking head>

That's a reasonable point.

Last night, for "fun," some of my corpmates and I put together a 4-man: 3 Atlas and a Commando, all with ECM. Out of a dozen matches or so, we ROFLstomped the opposition in all but one match -- totally steamrolled over the other side. Sometimes we'd have another PUG with an ECM to add to our wonderful band of OP mechs. If I had been a new player and on the other side, getting beat time after time after time... yeah -- that would be it. <Uninstall> and to heck with this game.

New players will always be at a disadvantage, but it just seems a little silly at this point.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 12 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

This is why I keep hammering home that the problem is the devs think it is balanced to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

One more time from the top

Well repeating yourself sounds more like:

MrDingDong, on 12 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

fix your game or I WILL QUIT

But that's another story.

[Corvus Antaka]

Dormax, on 12 December 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

That's a reasonable point.

Last night, for "fun," some of my corpmates and I put together a 4-man: 3 Atlas and a Commando, all with ECM. Out of a dozen matches or so, we ROFLstomped the opposition in all but one match -- totally steamrolled over the other side. Sometimes we'd have another PUG with an ECM to add to our wonderful band of OP mechs. If I had been a new player and on the other side, getting beat time after time after time... yeah -- that would be it. <Uninstall> and to heck with this game.

New players will always be at a disadvantage, but it just seems a little silly at this point.

Anything with ECM works. we had some troubles today, lost 4-5 matches in a row (cant remember that ever happening before), and nobody had ECM. We switched to 3 ECM ravens/commandos and a cataphract, and won 10 games in a row after that.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 12 December 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Mercules, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Damn it... been playing Double Blind ECM wrong according to the actual wording of the rules. It strongly implies that it affects all sensor checks but has one sentence that changes the whole meaning to limit it to spotting mechs standing within the ECM bubble itself. I stand corrected and humbly eat crow. I even checked the Errata sheets to be certain.

ECM should not affect Sensor Ranges for mechs outside it's influence.

Don't worry about getting stuff wrong occasionally. The rules get really weird, and there are more exceptions and caveats in the Battletech rules then there are weeds in an untended lawn.

There are veterans of the game, having played it for 10 or 20 years, who come to conventions at least in part to get the rules straight by direct contact with Catalyst Game Labs staff and volunteers to make sure they're playing it right.

I went back to the rules to confirm my understanding of the C3/ECM relationship today, just to be sure. "Antimagic Field" classes of abilities are always a headache.

[AHZeruel]

Is it really game design to be neutralized, as an indirect fire support role (cause you cant lock missiles on anything), by an ECM scout that due to AOE is not even aware you are there?

[DeaconW]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Anything with ECM works. we had some troubles today, lost 4-5 matches in a row (cant remember that ever happening before), and nobody had ECM. We switched to 3 ECM ravens/commandos and a cataphract, and won 10 games in a row after that.

Stop distracting us with actual empirical evidence! ECMonline must preserve my OP ECM Commando power! <\sarcasm>

Yeah...my MW:O experience with ECM mirrors yours and other members of my unit(and a number of other posters on this thread)...but what do we know...as soon as those people figure out how easy it is to use TAG to counter us we are screwed! Nerf TAG!

Edited by DeaconW, 12 December 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Josh Davion]

Alright, here is how ECM is meant to work:

Does:
-Disrupt Sensors within a 180m Bubble
--Enemy mechs within an ECM bubble cannot communicate with their teammates via C3 or C3i
---Magscan, Infrared, ultraviolet, sonar, and radar are all confused
-Disrupt Lock On weaponry
--Removes accuracy bonuses granted by TAG, Artemis IV, and NARC to missile weapons
-Jam Beagle Active Probes
--Prevents enhanced targeting data from being gathered by the BAP

Does Not:
-Disrupt Sensors outside a 180m Bubble
--Enemy mechs outside the 180m Bubble can still detect and track an ECM equipped/protected mechs
---Magscan, Infrared, ultraviolet, sonar, and radar are effected but not disabled
-Prevent Lock On outside the 180m Bubble
--Weapons, such as LRM's, SSRM's, and the like, are still able to lock on to an ECM equipped mech


ECM in its current state is incomplete.

[StUffz]

AHZeruel, on 12 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Is it really game design to be neutralized, as an indirect fire support role (cause you cant lock missiles on anything), by an ECM scout that due to AOE is not even aware you are there?

Since there is no ECM dropslot limitation in open games it feels like the matchending favors those who have the most ECM mechs in a match. And yes, ECM is intended to be pesty.

[ohtochooseaname]

I started playing MWO after the ECM patch came up. Consequently, my first was the 3M cicada...discovered I hate dealing with trying to strafe and fire ballistics, so I went with lasers and knife fighting. Then...I thought of how I could use a tag laser and/or ECM jamming to get a lock with streaks/be a decent spotter, so I got the 2D commando...at that point, my kills/deaths went up obnoxiously high (3 to 1 pugging). I'm not completely lag shielded (80ms), and I must say it's been quite fun. In learning to obtain a lock, I've finally become pretty decent at manual targeting, and running the cicada isn't so bad, especially since it is not as fragile and doesn't spend 40k in ammo every round.

Streaking with a light mech is certainly a good way to become exposed to the world of MWO

What I am most frustrated about is actually that I almost never have any significant LRM boats on my team. I equip a TAG instead of a medium laser, and the best games I have been in, it went so well because I was able to act as a decently difficult to hit spotter, while able to take the occasional SSRM pot shot, and run off the ECM lights, who go after the LRM boats. (I drop the ECM long enough to get an SSRM lock, and fire, then bring it back up if I am being targeted). When I survive to the last minute or so of a game, I am almost always 2nd for both damage and xp (half of my xp usually comes from spotting). Since I'm a noob, ECM must be OP.

IMO, the anti-locking/targeting ECM effectiveness needs to be relative to the mech tonnage and incorporate BAP, so the spotter role can maintain its current survivability and viability during an ECM nerf. Furthermore, maybe stacking 2 or 3 of them would be required for a light mech to be undetectable/lockable at the current settings, and 8 of them would be required for an atlas (allow stacking). Keep the close in disruption bubble the same, but change how guided missiles work by making them ballistic after entering the bubble unless the target is TAG'ed. ECM could also be an upgrade like Artemis, taking up slots and weight depending on which mech has it, though I like the idea of manually stacking it better.

[Vasces Diablo]

Funny story:

Played a match in caustic valley last night. In my Raven, ran up the west side of the map an spotted 6 enemy mechs hiding behind the slope of the crater (silly mechs, no ECM). I waited for the glorious sight of fire raining down upon them....and waited some more. Called out over chat for the fire support to make with the shooting already...

...turns out no one bothered bringing LRMs to the fight.

But to be clear, ECM has only added variety and "strategy" to the game.

Please fix this PGi

[AHZeruel]

I think ill repost something i said on general forum, but it fits here better.

Before this is categorized as a ECM QQ post or a LRM whine i want to say i like the canges in gameplay ECM has brought, and there is no complaint there. Im neither a 800 m LRM'er, i like indirect fire support role at around 400 meteres (Tag Range, yes, i self tag).

I still play with LRM cause i like them, the role and they are still viable somewhat. But unlike my l
Laser Boat or any other weapon system based mech, matches with my LRM support's can slide towards a challenging place where you can make tactical decisions (what front should i support, where do i position myself, etc) and actually contribute to the team. The other half of the matches i feel a total dead weight.

What is he diference? ECM fast mechs.

If they go behind our lines and close to me i can barely swipe a medium laser at them of blind shoot some SRM's cause, lets be honest, TAGing them for more than 2 seconds is impossible. It is uncomfortable, yeah, but i think DEV's intend them to be that way for heavy's and Assaults.

I dont have a problem with the Atlas D-DC sneaking a strike force, makes for interesting matches. ECM scouts are very hard for me, but i think that is intended for any heavy/assault mech.

What i find unfair is the missile lock AOE prevention while under enemy ECM. I mean, it takes no skill (buy and equip), no drawbacks, no continued targeting (Unlike TAG) and affects every opposing mech.

When i play lights i recognize an unfavourable escenario and run to live and fight another day. When im in a heavy with LRM's i can understand the ECM light having the upper hand, but its No-Lock effect not only gives him the upper hand, but makes you unable to fight against other enemy mechs (you can see them, you can even target them, but not locking on, and dumb firing missiles with their current speed is also useless).

I dont know if that is what devs want from the LRM's but it feels wrong to be 80% neutralized by an enemy mech that is not even aware you are there.

Edited by AHZeruel, 12 December 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Katface]

Still waiting for collisions to be added back into the game. Until then ECM is just another broken addition to the current crummy state of MWO.

[ohtochooseaname]

I think if the ECM mech's all carried TAG, then LRM's would be more viable. Then again, if TAG went 750 meters, the LRM boats would be more viable on their lonesome...so we'll see if that helps (assuming they go that route). These days, as soon as I drop, I try to find out if anyone's got any LRM's to launch. Due to the advent of ECM, people have stopped carrying AMS, so even an LRM 5 is decent...if they can actually use it.

[ohtochooseaname]

Katface, on 12 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Still waiting for collisions to be added back into the game. Until then ECM is just another broken addition to the current crummy state of MWO.

Off topic, but, what did collisions do? I assume, light mech accidentally runs into a wall/enemy mech and falls down/blows up?

If they add collisions back, will a cicada be able to smash into a raven and knock it to the ground...that would be awesome (those things seem like they should just fall over anyway).

Edited by ohtochooseaname, 12 December 2012 - 03:14 PM.