2028 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

I was looking through the mechs I own (14) and started thinking about what to work on next. Catapult...meh. My founders cat is already useless. Leveling an SRM 6 boat as a catapult...well..I could just take an atlas too. I realized how much I miss seeing a catapult raining LRMS from a hilltop, be it me or my opponent.

Infact, with the commandos leveled, the cataphracts, the hunchbacks, I realized I'm pretty stuck with an Atlas D-DC for leveling now. I could get into the stalker.

But the variety, like taking a dragon with 1 lrm 15, well..why bother?

The entire game has devolved into direct fire, and exactly because it is the one weapon set I can gaurentee to be 100% useful in every match.

And once again the vicious ECM circle is in play, because once everyone takes direct fire guns, the ECM becomes completely useless.

ECM is poorly designed. PGI needs to think of the entire radar system in terms of how it will work, and no item, be it tag, or ecm or bap should be required mounting to insure a weapon system you take will work. Having only ECM counter ECM doesnt help.

My hope is that beyond TAG/NARC we will see BAP come in and let LRM boats get locks at 500 meters again. This alone might help drastically.

But as it stands now the gameplay is completely crippled vs pre-ecm. inbetween AMS and cover we had tons of LRM counters. simply bringing back being able to lock on any mech at 500 meters or 750 with BAP regardless of the ECM's the enemy brings would be amazing, and brawlers & scouts would still reap huge benefits from ECM and the 180 meter bubble when used against the enemy.

After all the LRM warrior I cant believe Im saying this, but I miss LRM's. I certainly miss the tactical options it gave us, the suppression and flanking that occurred. The entire game is a huge brawlfest now, and while my KDR has in fact improved because of it, pugs have suffered the most from the ECM especially when used by lances.

PGI - please rethink your approach to radar and revisit how both mech3 and 4 handled radar. pre-ecm radar was already poor and almost CoD like, I had hoped BAP & C3/command console would give us real radar and that ECM would then somewhat counter that. Certainly did not expect what we have now.

When introducing ECM, etc, perhaps in the future sticking to TT and being more conservative and simple in what the item initially does, and then expanding on capabilities with viable counters in place, while insuring no weapon system is completely crippled by any other item may be a more logical approach.

However, given the beta state we are in, heavy throws in many directions & balance tests are better now than during release.

Most importantly, being more thoughtful in your comments regarding big issues like Open Beta & ECM countroversy might be adviseable. Given the extensive feedback the ECM has recieved - and the well thought out feedback - as beta testers trying to insure we help make a great game I think everyone here would agree that when a thread gets almost 100 pages of feedback it is prudent to er on the side of caution when addressing the issue - and to actually give us some well-thought out feedback in reply to all of our feedback.

Gameplay has extensively changed, and not for the better. It does not seem to me so far fetched to get a reply like:

ECM is WAI, but we realize LRM's suck now, and while we are for now buffing TAG/NARC, we do understand that it is a problem when a team is forced to take ECM to be viable, or when some weapon systems intended for long range combat are now completely useless at said long range combat without the use of a direct fire assist like tag - in which case it is understandable people would just take dual gauss rather than perma tagging targets while they attempt to get missiles on them.

Lets face it - why would I take an LRM boat with a TAG, when I could just take 2 gauss rifles?

1. TAG target, launch LRMS. pray target stays tagged the entire flight path.

2. take dual gauss, see target, shoot, watch target die.

Both need LOS..which would you choose?

Indirect fire and using LRMS to flush targets from cover was a great part of this game pre-ecm, and something that we need to see come back. In addition, AMS would actually be useful again too.

[Valaska]

Abivard, on 17 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I have several classes mastered, no medium class mastered yet, costs a lot in many things and I haven't been playing for months like some of you,

The only new class I have since ECM is the raven, I do try these things out in game.

I try to play all facets of the game as they are presented, I apply myself to learning each one as best as I can. So I use lasers,PPC, srm, ssrm,lrm, the ballistics all except for MG and flamer(doesn't work)

I have done this in under 40 days, I have over 600 kills.


What about you money boys?

I am a fast learner, I am skilled, I can and do solve problems, even under pressure and without the luxury of time.
I compete, I enjoy a challenge,

Many don't ok, then play something less challenging.

473 kills here and I haven't played since the ECM patch, and have been on and off for quite sometime so MUCH less, probably a quarter, of the time you've played. ECM is pretty ******** as is, it doesn't force you to play "smarter", it doesn't encourage team work, and it doesn't encourage fun in any sense of the word.

What does ECM encourage? You to move in a giant blob, run only mechs with ECM, and in 8 mans, run nothing but Atlas's with ECM and move in a giant formation. This is fun to you? This is intelligence to you? You really want 8 v 8 organized fighting to be nothing but ECM assaults with no disadvantage to what they are doing? You got problems Abivard, and I would thank you to get the hell out of my favorite franchise.

[USMC Iceman]

Valaska, on 17 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

473 kills here and I haven't played since the ECM patch, and have been on and off for quite sometime so MUCH less, probably a quarter, of the time you've played. ECM is pretty ******** as is, it doesn't force you to play "smarter", it doesn't encourage team work, and it doesn't encourage fun in any sense of the word.

What does ECM encourage? You to move in a giant blob, run only mechs with ECM, and in 8 mans, run nothing but Atlas's with ECM and move in a giant formation. This is fun to you? This is intelligence to you? You really want 8 v 8 organized fighting to be nothing but ECM assaults with no disadvantage to what they are doing? You got problems Abivard, and I would thank you to get the hell out of my favorite franchise.

How can you learn to use ECM if you don't play? I hear my kids tell me they hate " what ever I put on their plates" when its new and I know they have never tried this new food.

TRY it. Learn how it works. There are many ways to beat ECM. Read threw of the 100+ post and you will find some.

I do agree the net code is a major issue with our with out ECM. So I pass on that. But ECM is over all great when you take the light mech lag out of the issue. But the fix to the lag monkey is still LBX 10 or SRM shot guns unit you can get a lock for SSRMS. And then we are back to why SSRM's need to be nerfed again.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

White Bear 84, on 17 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I killed 4 mechs in a match where the enemy team had 2 ecm and we only had one.. ..and i was in a cataphract. I beg to differ.

My comment is in relation to non-ECM variants of the Commando, Raven, Atlas and Cicada. Why use them when u can use the ones that can carry ECM. It's a 1.5T auto gimp-shield.

[ICEFANG13]

How do you counter ECM? Isn't that just ECM and TAG sort of? Tactics to beat them not using tactics? I need to change my game plan because we have less ECM than they do? Not good balance.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

White Bear 84, on 17 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

I think they should have put the ecm on non streak mechs..

This isn't dealing with the problem. It's a symptom of ECM. It does too much for too little. It's a trump card. It's a ROCK. Take that PAPER!

[Tex Arcana]

Lupus Aurelius, on 17 December 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Wow, delusional much? Please provide objective evidence to backup what you have managed to repeat multiple times, and have had refuted multiple times. Disingenuous argument, in parrot mode.

Lupus.
I've only been here a short time and I can tell you that all the posts by the Troll you are talking to are just that: useless trolling.

Brown Hornet, on 17 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

My comment is in relation to non-ECM variants of the Commando, Raven, Atlas and Cicada. Why use them when u can use the ones that can carry ECM. It's a 1.5T auto gimp-shield.

Unless one is grinding the line in order to Master one of the models (Like, oh I dunno...the "L" perhaps?).

[ICEFANG13]

I didn't worry about it. ECM is such a huge advantage, I didn't want to bother with the worthless suck 2X and 4X. Excellent balance.

[repete]

Tex Arcana, on 17 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

...Unless one is grinding the line in order to Master one of the models (Like, oh I dunno...the "L" perhaps?).

I didn't bother grinding in those now useless variants. I simply converted MXP to GXP and maxed the useless variants out that way. Expensive? Ish. Better than not bringing ECM and losing? Yes.

[steelblueskies]

okay guys seriously, i know you all mean well but some of the one liners seem like attempts to hit page 100 before patch >.>

for the information pool and bearing in mind my frequent dips into pug in a trial for a few hours each day,
1,396/530 kills:deaths, with 952:335 wins/losses. nothing "erg my epeen so big", and no efforts to pad numbers. a great deal of grinding frustration trying to get teammates gone for months up to speed, or teeth gnashing at some pugs, bugs,etc. but whatever.

some of you find that data meaningful in some way, so there you have it. be sure to try to use it to belittle and demean as much as possible, as that will inherently make you a better person.

would you like a post game stats listing for my last 15 runs solo pugging in a row as well? i still have those images for data tracking purposes.

[Eldrad]

Please attempt to respond to the following questions in your responses:
The weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM.
I pilot a Jenner, Cataphract and Atlas.
The behaviour that weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM.
Frustration, rage quitting, lack of enjoyable gaming experience.
A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the ECM stats to improve balance.
I'm not a programmer, Mechwarrior Founder or even a Mechwarrior fan.
I am a casual gamer that likes robot on robot violence.
I have no idea what needs to happen to fix the situation but this is not fun anymore.
I have enough issues dealing with light mechs to begin with.
I cannot beat the Raven/Commando ecm missile platforms 1 on 1 as it is let alone deal with the ever increasing swarms and packs of them.

It is beyond ridiculous that light mechs can already engage heavies with impunity.
It is beyond ridiculous that a non-ecm light mech has zero chance against a raven/commando ecm.streak mech.

I have no idea what needs to be done nor do I have any suggestions for you.
I am not having fun and am going back to World of Tanks.
I have sunk over $100 into this game to date and hope you guys can unscrew up whatever it is that needs to be unscrewed up.
I like the concept and gameplay for the most part.

I should not be afraid of a Jenner when in my Atlas and yet I tremble with terror at the sight.
I should not be unafraid to assault two heavies and a medium in my Jenner and yet I throttle forward and giggle with glee.
I should be able to win 50% of the time against another light mech and yet if I am facing an ecm Raven/Commando I alt tab out and surf the web for a few minutes because I know if I try to fight it out, I will just get pissed and rage quit.

There are things that are game breaking.
This would not be the first game with a great fanbase and excellent IP done in by imbalance and poor execution.
Please give me a reason to come back.
I am pulling for you guys but running out of patience and faith.

[Valaska]

USMC Iceman, on 17 December 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

How can you learn to use ECM if you don't play? I hear my kids tell me they hate " what ever I put on their plates" when its new and I know they have never tried this new food.

TRY it. Learn how it works. There are many ways to beat ECM. Read threw of the 100+ post and you will find some.

I do agree the net code is a major issue with our with out ECM. So I pass on that. But ECM is over all great when you take the light mech lag out of the issue. But the fix to the lag monkey is still LBX 10 or SRM shot guns unit you can get a lock for SSRMS. And then we are back to why SSRM's need to be nerfed again.

Sorry I was a bit succinct. I Fought for about a week with this, I learned what you have to do, take ECM as well, yeah simple enough. Completely ditching missiles is another great step, save SRM's, hell to be honest I miss having LRM's raining on me at this point, there WERE things I could do about that, but this? As I said, there is no intelligence involved, its pretty simple.

Take ECM, or loose. You might not loose every match you don't take ECM on in 8v8, but I dare you to tally out your win loss after that point (take pictures and video) of your team of 8 outsmarting ECM without running them... No? Yeah, I reiterate, there's no playing smart, there's taking ECM... Yup yup.

There was a fantastic suggestion about BAP breaking through ECM at 500 meters though, could bring LRM's back into the fight even.

[Tex Arcana]

100 page rage.
Epic.

[ICEFANG13]

Tex Arcana, on 17 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

100 page rage.
Epic.

So tell us all the reasons ECM is balanced? Explain?

[Valaska]

ICEFANG13, on 17 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

So tell us all the reasons ECM is balanced? Explain?

Because if everyone uses the same 3 mechs in the game no one can complain!

[ICEFANG13]

That's what I keep hearing.

[atheotes]

I was initially of the view that ECM was balanced, because it largely didn't effect my LRM15+artemis+tag CAT-C1 build (roughly 300 to 400 points of damage per game in non-PUG play). However, after reading more on the forums, and ~100 non-PUG games, it's clear that it is simply too powerful to remain in its current form. I'm sure it has been said before, but if this were a real battlefield, you'd be insane not to equip all of your mechs with ECM. The reason they didn't make that an option is clear: if given the option to put ECM on a mech, everyone would do it in a heartbeat. It is cheap, effects virtually the entire battlefield directly or indirectly, and almost completely negates enemy missle weapon systems. There are a number of ways to make it less powerful without completely eliminating its usefulness; PGI definitely needs to rethink its approach, otherwise say hello to 8 vs 8 teams that are just stacking ECM.

[Haitchpeasauce]

Congratulations on the 100th ECM ram-page!

Overall the discussions have been fair and civilised. Seriously, I'm enjoying the discussion... even if we've basically discussed every positive and negative (edit: and suggested change) to death and back again.

But, will PGI listen? THAT is what I am interested to see next...

Edited by Haitchpeasauce, 17 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Valaska]

Haitchpeasauce, on 17 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Congratulations on the 100th ECM ram-page!

Overall the discussions have been fair and civilised. Seriously, I'm enjoying the discussion... even if we've basically discussed every positive and negative to death and back again.

But, will PGI listen? THAT is what I am interested to see next...

Hopefully, I would really like to see BAP have a 180 meter bubble that can break ECM for targets 500 meters away, that or C3. Because hell, if ECM is going to do what it does now, we've thrown cannon out of the window and should focus on trying to balance these things in the most practical ways possible.

[DocBach]

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-really-do/

this guys idea on how ECM should be implemented is spot on IMO

From WardenWolf:


So I have played with ECM now as a PUG and in a group - several matches both ways - and ECM seems to be overpowered to me. It has too many effects, an insufficient number of counters given the level of power it has, and completely shuts down a lot of aspects of the game that we had become accustomed to and which made sense (calling targets by letter assignment, for example). I know many people like / love it, and equally many seem to hate it - so I think some common ground should be the goal.

With that in mind, I'd like to open a discussion about what people think ECM *should* do (regardless of what it does now). Here are the sources on what ECM does in BattleTech, advanced BattleTech rules, and some notes about it from other sources (previous video games):

Master Rules: http://goo.gl/61asD (pg 136)

Advanced Rules http://www.scribd.co...ticalOperations (pg 99-100)

Sarna Description: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite

Given the above, here is what I think ECM should be capable of:

- In normal operation, it would make a 'bubble', circular in shape, extending 180 meters out from the ECM-equipped mech

- Any enemy mechs within that bubble would be cut off from sharing targeting data, but their own targeting would work just fine

- Any NARC beacons latched on to friendly mechs within the bubble would be nullified while within the bubble

- Artemis IV on enemy mechs (inside or outside the bubble) would not help (increase hit chance) when fired at friendly mechs inside the bubble

- Beagle Active Probes and modules on enemy mechs would not get their increased targeting distance or info speed vs friendly mechs inside the bubble

The effects described above are all perfectly canon in terms of the TT game. In advanced rulesets, a secondary mode for ECM where it counters enemy ECM is also available, and having that sort of toggle (as it is in MWO now) seems fine. There is also a 'ghost target' option in those advanced rules as a third ECM mode, but I'm not sure how that could really be implemented in MWO effectively.

Edited by DocBach, 17 December 2012 - 10:02 PM.