2028 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

welcome to the big 100

must be something up with ecm if we wanna talk about it this much huh?

[Tolkien]

GalaxyBluestar, on 17 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

welcome to the big 100

must be something up with ecm if we wanna talk about it this much huh?

Yeah apparently someone even likes the balance question so much in the ask the devs thread that it has been on the MWO facebook timeline for a few days.

https://www.facebook...meline?filter=2

Something is indeed worth talking about when this type of all benefit, no drawback, low cost, nearly hands free, breaks other systems system is added to the game.

Some people legitimately like the flavour of play since it was introduced, but personally I hate the streak SRM armed light mech knifefight that has replaced the streak cats... at least you could hit a streak cat when you aimed at it, rather than trying to figure out where it might be when the server interprets your shot. And taking LRMs into a pug is a foolish wager with the wasted tonnage fairy.

Anyway, while we are not in consensus over the definition of 'fun' for this game, it seems that almost everyone in this thread agrees that for 1.5 tons and 2 critical slots, ECM is doing way too many different things.

Edited by Tolkien, 18 December 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[DrBunji]

Here's a newsflash for you;

WHETHER OR NOT IT WORKS LIKE IN THE CANON IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE NOT THE CANON NOR THE TT WAS BALANCED FOR FPS-PLAY.

[Murdalizer]

http://mwomercs.com/...implimentation/


imo this deserves more than 33 views.

Edited by Murdalizer, 18 December 2012 - 04:30 AM.

[Tolkien]

DrBunji, on 18 December 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Here's a newsflash for you;

WHETHER OR NOT IT WORKS LIKE IN THE CANON IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE NOT THE CANON NOR THE TT WAS BALANCED FOR FPS-PLAY.

Hi there Dr. Bunji,

You're quite correct, and whatever the final implementation ends up being needs to be balanced for FPS play, and I think 99% of the people in this thread agree with this too. Tabletop is just a useful starting point for comparison, and does contain some guidelines for how to make mechwarrior into an FPS from the original creators of battletech. I think this was most faithfully implemented in MPBT3025, a game from 2001 where everything was stock variants and followed the tabletop recommended cooldown, damage, and heat values almost to the letter. The only big improvement they made there was to double up the head armor, which was a good choice given how humans aim while dice just roll.

Did you have some ideas to share on the balance of the ECM module?

[Valcoer]

you wanted us not to hold back and as a matter of fact I have been holding back.
so now here is my oppinion.

ecm in its current form ruins "my" game play experience. ecm should not be equipable on any mech other than a light and its purpose should be to enhance the role warfare of a scout mech. or it should be equipable on any mech. so far this is the only piece of equipment specifically designed to be installed only on specific mechs. so why only the few? there are no technical reasons for this. if it can be installed on an atlas and a comando then I dont see why it couldnt be equipped on any mech. any reason you could come up with that would prevent other atlas' from equipping it would also prevent a commando from equiping it. any reason you can come up with that would prevent a jenner from equipping it would also prevent a cicada from equipping it.
so in essence we now have atlas' scouting. I didnt know everyone was a steiner.
or perhaps we have command commando's. pretty riddiculous right?
what is the purpose of ecm in the battle tech universe? and what is the purpose of ecm in this simulation/ game?
I can garauntee the purposes are not the same or compatible. if your purpose is to create lances that are made up of primarily commando cicada ravens and atlas' you will succeed since in order for an eight man to be competitve it will need at least four ecm mechs and most likely you will be seeing four or more ecm equipped altas. if your purpose is to remove lrms and streaks from the game then why put them in in the first place?

the obvious solution is to return to the purpose of ecm which is the role enhancement of the scout. it is a defensive device designed to allow scouts more survivability. not to create a romulan cloaking device that allows a lance of assault mechs to hide from the enemy or to remove the use of lock on weapons from the game. a scout needs to remain hidden when targeting for lrms the ecm was never meant to prevent target locks of lrms on a full lance or more of assault mechs.

You were absolutely correct in the patch notes when you said ecm was a game changer, however the change was not for the better.
you should go back to the drawing board with ecm and take a good long look at your stated objectives for this game. i.e. community warfare, role warfare etc etc. the role of the support mech is no longer viable in this "changed game" and that I think is where you are hearing the loudest outcry from those who have chosen to be support mechs that no longer have a role in this game. I know many of those players in our faction that use to play regularly as support mechs no longer log in and play because there is no role for them in this changed game. there is there fore no longer a role for the scout/ tagger mechs. I am sure those who prefer to fly direct fire mechs and who think low(lock on weapons) are a mistake will disagree with these statements but there is no denying the decline in missile mech players that log into our team speak server or into your changed game.

[JTAlweezy]

I still think ECM is way over powered. It should not be able to take out all mechs radar capabilities within 180m bubble. Cause that would mean the ECM is putting out more power than all those mechs Radar combined. That takes far more energy than I would assume any mech has.

[CharliePapaLima]

I miss the days where I unloaded my founders cata on players but this is a good step in the right direction. I had my fun and now its time to put my cata in a more support role. ECM will be a turning point in the battlefield if its properly executed later in the game. As of now ECM creates quick mad dashes to the enemies base to capture. The last 10 matches have been of mech battles even with ECM. Pugging you never know what you are going to get, makes for fun times.

[DeaconW]

Please vote in my "return ECM to true Guardian Parameters" poll...maybe PGI will listen to dollars if enough people participate...

http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry1617420

If you have time, I also created another poll to retain/return repair and rearm.

http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1617585

Thx.

[StUffz]

Just read through the rulebook and according to the sample everything what fire at an enemy mech within the bubble or through the bubble is affected by the ECM abilities.

Edited by StUffz, 18 December 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Valcoer]

DeaconW, on 18 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Please vote in my "return ECM to true Guardian Parameters" poll...maybe PGI will listen to dollars if enough people participate...

http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry1617420

If you have time, I also created another poll to retain/return repair and rearm.

http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1617585

Thx.

I must say you forgot to add my option and that is I hate ecm but I will not pay a single red cent just to have it change.
Im a career free to play player. when the game is no longer in beta there may come a time when I will pay for mc. currently now I am beta testing their game for them with out pay. if anyone should be getting money its the hard working beta testers that have put so much into this game in an attempt to make sure that pgi doesnt screw it up, we as beta testers are doing our best to make sure pgi creates a game that will be profitable to them. however, pgi forgets that we are not the audience we are betta testers and the only reason we test their game for free is because we love the universe that it is created in. you on the other hand are encouraging the monster and I can not condone such behavior. who knows what they will do next if they think that those of us that work hard to help them create a great game would be willing to pay to have things that need to be fixed fixed. they might even start throwing in things they know dont work so you will offer them more money to fix it. the best way to appeal to their pocket book is when they make things to bad quit playing till the next patch they will see the decline in players and realize that they are on the wrong path. so to all you hard working beta testers when you have an issue dont offer the companymoney to fix it go on strike and quit testing their game till the next patch. nuff said.

[JTAlweezy]

StUffz, on 18 December 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Just read through the rulebook and according to the sample everything what fire at an enemy mech within the bubble or through the bubble is affected by the ECM abilities.

that kind of puts a hold on a lot of arguments. Since keeping the game consistent with the Lore makes it that much more fun to play. I also have been complaining about ECM but still put 5 hours in the game each day. I could care less if they have or dont have ECM. They are all dying just as they did before ECM so I cant complain. ECM just means I cant seem em, wow big whoop. Its also funny that mechs who have ECM like to stand still. Love pounding mechs with LRM who dont do ****.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 18 December 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Just read through the rulebook and according to the sample everything what fire at an enemy mech within the bubble or through the bubble is affected by the ECM abilities.

Hi there StUffz,

While that is correct (that on TT ECM affects enhancement systems going to the mech or through the bubble) the one in the game right now is doing, well a few extra things. Things like Artemis IV, Clan targeting computers, NARC beacons should be nullified indeed, but I'll put a short list of the extra goodies ECM has here for some reason that I can recall off the top of my head.

1) If the ECM is guardian ECM which is what should be available shortly to the inner sphere it should not affect streak missiles at all. Angel ECM does disable their homing, but it isn't available until 3060 ish and then I think it is just Liao that gets it. Even when affected by the Angel ECM, Streak SRMs are supposed to just turn into regular SRMs, so this is 'extra' in two ways.

2) The mechanic of LRMs locking is an FPS modification. On tabletop if you had LOS to the target there was no disruption to LRM fire except for ARTEMIS IV not giving the bonus. So this is a big extra in that it makes it really hard (some say impossible) to use LRMs on an ECM mech. I will say nearly impossible since the rockets move so slow, and have that 150m minimum for the warheads to arm.

3) The disruption of friend-foe info is also new to the FPS. On tabletop all mechs were controlled by a single player so you always knew exactly who was who, so disrupting red team blue team info is extra. Right now ECM can cause friendly fire since we all have random paint/cammo, and when a pair of lights come screaming past It's hard to tell if the one in front is my buddy or not.


4) On tabletop if a single friendly unit spots an enemy unit (LOS) the whole team knows where it is. This is again because all the mechs are controlled by the same human so this information sharing is automatic. This is another extra of ECM here, and is comparable to what happens with a tesser (stealth) mech.


5) On tabletop a BAP helps detect mechs that are powered down or that you don't have line of sight to and is only affected if the mech carrying it is standing *inside* the 180m bubble of the ECM. Here ECM just makes BAP not work on the target, regardless of range - another big extra. Right now ECM is doing things to detection that are very similar to what a 'null signature system' does on tabletop, but without the cost of weight/tonnage. Granted NSS also knocks out thermal detection, but 2/3 isn't bad.


6) UI fuzzing and inaccurate range to target scrambling. This feature is also new to the FPS since on tabletop it's a hex based game and you can always count the hexes to your target. This one is a tiny bonus but it is again something extra.


I'm probably missing some stuff but this is what's sticking out as the big differences between tabletop and here.

[DocBach]

Pretty much in the board game Guardian ECM was most useful using hidden unit rules - it protected you from a Beagle Active Probe, which could detect shut down or hidden 'Mechs, so you could spring an ambush. It did not, however, protect you from streak or LRM missiles.

In MWO ECM hides you even if you aren't shut down and prevents half of the weapons on the battlefield from hitting you.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 18 December 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Hi there StUffz,

While that is correct (that on TT ECM affects enhancement systems going to the mech or through the bubble) the one in the game right now is doing, well a few extra things. Things like Artemis IV, Clan targeting computers, NARC beacons should be nullified indeed, but I'll put a short list of the extra goodies ECM has here for some reason that I can recall off the top of my head.

Hi Tolkien. Let's get straight to the answers...

Quote

1) If the ECM is guardian ECM which is what should be available shortly to the inner sphere it should not affect streak missiles at all. Angel ECM does disable their homing, but it isn't available until 3060 ish and then I think it is just Liao that gets it. Even when affected by the Angel ECM, Streak SRMs are supposed to just turn into regular SRMs, so this is 'extra' in two ways.

Here is the point about why it PGI thinks streak are effected by ECM:

Quote

A Streak SRM missile contains a targeting device that prevents the missile from launching unless the missile has locked on to a target. Once locked on, the missile automatically hits its target.

So the SSRM Launcher itself is not affected and non-autolock shots should be possible. PGI should take a look if they can implement indirect fire if the autolock is jammed by ECM. The current design does not allow indirect fire with possibility to hit. Same is with LRM. Indirect missile fire (Area Damage) is not possible due to game design.

Quote

2) The mechanic of LRMs locking is an FPS modification. On tabletop if you had LOS to the target there was no disruption to LRM fire except for ARTEMIS IV not giving the bonus. So this is a big extra in that it makes it really hard (some say impossible) to use LRMs on an ECM mech. I will say nearly impossible since the rockets move so slow, and have that 150m minimum for the warheads to arm.

Agree here that LRM indirect fire should be possible if the iron sight is fixed on the point and the enemy is not moving. The more you are moving, the more inaccurate it gets.

Quote

3) The disruption of friend-foe info is also new to the FPS. On tabletop all mechs were controlled by a single player so you always knew exactly who was who, so disrupting red team blue team info is extra. Right now ECM can cause friendly fire since we all have random paint/cammo, and when a pair of lights come screaming past It's hard to tell if the one in front is my buddy or not.

Friendly Fire is also possible without ECM. I already mentioned and suggested a few pages ago that the HUD should maybe redisgned that you can toggle on/off to see who your teammate is. This is not an issue of ECM itself.

Quote

4) On tabletop if a single friendly unit spots an enemy unit (LOS) the whole team knows where it is. This is again because all the mechs are controlled by the same human so this information sharing is automatic. This is another extra of ECM here, and is comparable to what happens with a tesser (stealth) mech.

You have voicechat/teamspeak to let the others know who the ECM mech is. But yeah. we talk about random games, right?

Quote

5) On tabletop a BAP helps detect mechs that are powered down or that you don't have line of sight to and is only affected if the mech carrying it is standing *inside* the 180m bubble of the ECM. Here ECM just makes BAP not work on the target, regardless of range - another big extra. Right now ECM is doing things to detection that are very similar to what a 'null signature system' does on tabletop, but without the cost of weight/tonnage. Granted NSS also knocks out thermal detection, but 2/3 isn't bad.

Not complaining about this. Suggestion here is maybe to have on the radar display that there is a blank spot which cannot be scanned.

Quote

6) UI fuzzing and inaccurate range to target scrambling. This feature is also new to the FPS since on tabletop it's a hex based game and you can always count the hexes to your target. This one is a tiny bonus but it is again something extra.

1 Hex = 30 Meters. Don't see an issue here

Quote

I'm probably missing some stuff but this is what's sticking out as the big differences between tabletop and here

You forgot to mention that ECM only weighs 1.5 tons and uses 2 critical slots

Edited by StUffz, 18 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Tex Arcana]

ICEFANG13, on 17 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

So tell us all the reasons ECM is balanced? Explain?

Icefang:
Having liked at least one of my posts on this topic I expect you to have also READ it.
My "100 page" comment is simply in regard to the length and conviction of many of the posters.

[Corvus Antaka]

2000 posts!

It's also got more views than my user.cfg fix thread in closed beta. First thread that has managed that I think

bumping to get to 2000 posts before it's archived...mwhahaha

don't delete this Paul

*ducks*

[steelblueskies]

jiminy cricket. if people are going to bold, extra large and more a one liner, you'd think they'd have checked if the point was covered eh?

so he argues against tt application to realtime. if we look at the mech duel rules/solaris rules ranges in hexes are quadrupled, heat gen is quadrupled, you can only fire one weapon a turn, and one turn is 2.5 seconds down from 10. it also notes this makes lrms really difficult to find opportunities to use due to the extreme range under the rules(and extreme min range).

furthermore the typical problem with a tt to rt translation has less to do with how things work, and more to do with how few things get implemented. if you can't cover all the point and counterpoint rules that balance one another out, you inherently bork tt balances. take buffing a flamers heat and damage vs adding its' other uses. like setting wooded regions on fire to create visual blinds and/or hot zones that behave similarly to the caldera relative to the surrounding area. the latter is canon and buff the flamer too. you wouldn't boat the latter, but you might take it for the option for something a little different it offered.

but then that's still pure tt correct? so perhaps we should look at the tt producers input on past realtime titles? like the trio in the mw2 series, mw3, mw4, mechcommander. i am not personally aware of any past interviews, comments or articles indicating that input existed for the virtual worlds bit, so i can't comment there. if they were realtime implementations with input from the creators of the source game, would they not then be reasonable sources to draw upon?

lock on for lrms was a compromise used in many of them for example, but a proper 360 sensor suite with bap/ecm interactions were present or explored that did not break that whole cloth system.

heck mw2 with its simplified implementations, even played up to the sensor reliance bit quite well in one of the missions on a low visibility world in a region full of natural crystals that showed as sensor contacts, but with jammed radar requiring visual confirmation on friend/enemy/rock emitting confusing reading(and the sandstorm causing low visibility made visual confirmation a close range thing).

furthermore, while everyone has argued the rules for how the system works, and what the closest systems in tt were, only a few on pages now long buried covered the fact that the tt rules also provided for alternate implementations, like throwing out ghost contacts instead of the blind.

but sure, lets throw away 25+ years of effort, experience, and balancing, imbalancing, rebalancing with lore and rules that take small encyclopedias to cover all the core+optional+alternate rules while fleshing out the universe, as well as several tens of millions of dollars of prior realtime development and do something unique, to an above average level of critique, while offering less features and functionality that is in or working than the older titles yet use the franchise name. let's even toss all of the balance war over some of the affected systems from the prior months WE DID, out the window too.

our use of the pretty cryengine will certainly save us in spite of driving user requirements up, and creating us several orders of magnitude more work and frustration because of the limitations we've found that we have to work around(continuous torso rotation, rearward weapons, etc etc all chalked up to this). have you also by chance considered how far they can go from canon before losing the right to the name and ip elements(we aren't there yet, but inarguably that nebulous issue is out there)?

noone knows or sees everything or every perspective, including me or the devs(they are humans). here's hoping that there's at least some angles in this to give you something to chew on.

[Vodrin Thales]

I think a lot of posters are hung up here on the differences between ECM in TT and in MWO. ECM is definitely much more powerful in MWO than in the TT game, and the dev's have already stated the reasons for this difference. They apparently did not like the fact that pure missile mechs like a pure LRM boat or an SRM cat were so effective. They intended ECM to make these types of builds much less viable.

While I would say that ECM has been very successful on that account, I would agree with many of the posters in this thread that it is simply a bit too strong in it's current form, especially when considering the relative utility of similar devices like BAP and artemis.

The solution I would suggest would be to increase the detection range of an ECM cloaked mech from 200 to 400 meters. ECM would also slow missile target lock on any ECM protected mech by 50% under this system. ECM will also continue to nullify BAP, artemis IV, and NARC as it currently does. Additionally, ECM will no longer disrupt a mechs targeting computer (other than the missile lock effect discussed previously) when that mech is within 180 meters of the ECM carrying mech, it will only prevent other friendly mechs from receiving that targeting information. This means streak equipped mechs will still be able to get missile locks on ECM equipped mechs, but it will take twice as long to get said lock unless they are running another counter to ECM.

Additionally, we then have the sensor range module increase detection of an ECM mech to 600 meters in addition to its current function. We also have the target information module nullify the slower target lock in addition to it's current function.

The above changes in conjunction with the increase to TAG range will have the overall effect of greatly reducing ECM effectiveness without restoring the sort of viability that pure streak and LRM builds enjoyed prior to the introduction of ECM. It will also make several of the modules much more desirable, and this is a good thing for PGI from both a business model, and pure game standpoint. Lastly it also will make 8 man drops with limited or no ECM viable as long as you are stacking ECM counters. This makes a wider variety of mech loadouts viable. Overall I think this system would work well and be more fun for players while still accomplishing the things that the devs set out to do with ECM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Who wants to bet that the most popular varient of the Stalker purchased today after patch is the one that carries ECM?

After all, why wouldn't you buy it... Protect yourself from enemy LRM's and streaks with no downside or cost of use!