235 replies to this topic

[Suki]

Koningswulf, on 05 December 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I fully agree with you that the maps are small thats why I embrace the ECM since they make in effect the maps "bigger" since you now need to get closer to see the other opponent. This patch very much so did give us more tactics and also improved the need for scouts and flanking screens something that should be a must for every good commander to use.

as I see what was before:
1. One could be LRM support.
2. One could be streak support.
3. One could be snipe support.

now:
1. LRM support - dead.
2. Streak support - almost dead, not because of long targeting lock, but of streak support more then 100m circling is a dead support.
3. Because of lag shield and small maps I'm seeng snipers even less then LRM-boats.

there's no more tactics, only one left - brawl and pure brawl not looking at surroundings, you can brawl through the lake safely becaurse LRM's are almost useless. all the other tactics are just different types of the same brawl.

[spuge]

Ecm is good but i think agein our loved game makers dont think what they are dooing.
is streak and lrm missiles was to opowerful so you answered in that whit ecm why the hell we have AMS??

i say you need total owerhaul in ECM and AMS. what players think if ecm work like this.

- it cloak all mechs in it range so they can be targeted only in half as normal targeting range. about 300-500m

- you still can lock and shoot missiles to ecm cloaked mech if and when you get lock but ecm automaticly try counterin missiles by giving it falce targets and making them land nearby so it drops actual hits about 30% it is not fool proof can it have its limits it can be spammed ower whit multiple mechs.
ps. after all our Primary defence vs indirect missile fire is Anti Missile system is it? Boost it so it is usefull.

- and even cloaked ecm:ed mech pilot can talk so let us see enemy mechs in map when our scouts see them even when i cannot lock them or get target info. it is impossible for scouts to work as our eyes if yhey dont have way to give us that information.

- you cannot get target information from cloaked mechs

Bonus:
- targeted jamming. 3 mode in ecm you drop all others ways of jammin and countering and focus jamming in one mech making it fully jammed. you can jam enemy mech up to 800m away in your line of sight

what you think if ecm forked like this?? for my opinion if you drop lrm range 1000-->500, drop its accurasy, enemy dont get target information

AMS

totaly under powered. and under rated.
If we have mod like this i say it is our Primary defence vs missile fire, not ecm
It definetly need large boost.

there make it work ad ecm do whit 2 modes.

groop defense : shoot every hostile missiles in side it working radius defensind you and your team but not were efetive vs streaks dont have time for reacting it.

and
Self Defence: working radius in more limited but reaction fire is improved. not so efective vs LRM fire when it is actualy shooting missiles shorter time but more efective vs streak fire.

Edited by spuge, 05 December 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[Moonsavage]

tl:dr

One ECM per matchmaking drop plx.

[KinLuu]

Moonsavage, on 05 December 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

tl:dr

One ECM per matchmaking drop plx.

No.

Need to be at least 2.

[Alex Wolfe]

Suki, on 05 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

as I see what was before:
1. One could be LRM support.
2. One could be streak support.

1. LRM was too powerful to be "support", it felt like a constant artillery shelling, INCOMING MISSILE the moment you popped your helmet out of the trench for two seconds, and if hit, your mech stripped of armor in 1-3 hits. Too good for the effort required and risk ("little to none"). Check the video above for some proof.

2. Streak "support" claim is laughable. Streak cats were the most powerful para-brawlers in the game, nothing could stand up to them 1v1 if piloted with minimum of competence, which earned them the moniker "raidboss". The problem only grew bigger if raidbosses were grouped, sometimes with their own kind. Again, check the video.

If ECM is nerfed, LRMs and streaks would need to be properly rebalanced for the support role, as fits their completely point-and-click (or "brain dead") nature. I've had about enough of huddling in the trenches of Space Ypres, roamed by mecha-tyrannosauri you can't approach without a tank and healer, thank you .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2012 - 04:25 AM.

[Lt Limpy]

ECM is great. Scouting is actually scouting again, and LRM slugfests only happen at certain stages rather than all the damn time.

Sure, people are always going to throw their arms up in the air and scream "IMBALANCE" when a new facet to the game is added that forces them to think of new strategies. At the most, very, very minor tweaking is needed to make sure that not every mech on a team needs to drop with ECM. Otherwise, the strategy if ECM bothers you is to KILL or disable the ECM mech. If you're an LRM whineboat, make sure your ECM teammate coordinates with everyone else to find the offending ECM and kill it, or get another teammate to *smartly* TAG the opposition without standing completely statuesque and oblivious to the war raging around them. Then you will be free to let loose the LRM's.

Adapt a new strategy and overcome. It's not that hard.

[spuge]

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

1. LRM was too powerful to be "support", it felt like a constant artillery shelling, INCOMING MISSILE the moment you popped your helmet out of the trench for two seconds, and if hit, your mech stripped of armor in 1-3 hits. Too good for the effort required and risk ("little to none"). Check the video above for some proof.

2. Streak "support" claim is laughable. Streak cats were the most powerful para-brawlers in the game, nothing could stand up to them 1v1 if piloted with minimum of competence, which earned them the moniker "raidboss". The problem only grew bigger if raidbosses were grouped, sometimes with their own kind. Again, check the video.

If ECM is nerfed, LRMs and streaks would need to be properly rebalanced for the support role, as fits their completely point-and-click (or "brain dead") nature. I've had about enough of huddling in the trenches of Space Ypres, roamed by mecha-tyrannosauri you can't approach without a tank and healer, thank you .

i totaly agree, but ECM is not anti missile defence system. we have Anti Missile system(AMS) for that and it definedly need boost.

[Galenit]

Played tonight a few games with my raven and my catapult.

My raven was shoot a loot more then before patch, jenners run more often, commandos more often be a thread. Most fun game was one of the first. 3 enemys left, one+me on my team, in the end a enemy streakcat and i survive. The streak cant fire on me and i had only 1 laser left. He wents to our base i follow hin shooting on his back. It takes half the way over the map to kill him.
ECM and CounterECM work both, must change between them on situation, its more fun then before in raven and the games are more tactical.

My catapult, lrms+tag only, its nearly the same as before. But, as prepatch, i follow the mainforce and fight mostly under 450m and selftag. Best thing tonight: Commando with ECM instapops on my tag+50lrm salvo on 300m. I do my 1-2 kills and 5-7 assists a fight. And as before there are some enemys that stay under 180m and a lot that go of to 200+m after aproching me and being rained.

[Ace367]

Scar, on 04 December 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

That was obvious even before the patch that PGI' game-designers made ECM in the wrong way - too many functions in the one tiny module. I like much more how ECM is made in MWLL - it's reasonable and very balanced. Actually, there are two ECM modules in MWLL: GECM - it's a self-defence module, simple and lightweight to be suitable for Scouts. AECM - it's a collective ECM module, heavy and pretty similar by its functionality to the current MWO ECM. Finally, the AECM have seen the battlefield only in the 3052.

Yeah, MWLL's implementation of ECM modules were perfect.
Right now it seems like this 1.5 ton equipment is a magic wonder. For something that disrupts on such a large degree, it sure seems too good to be true.

[Onyx Rain]

I really haven't found it unbalancing yet...

But either way it is important to remember everyone is trying out this new mechanic, and the first few days/2 weeks we will be flooded with ECM mechs...then it will likely settle down into a more typical game with just a couple mechs running ecm on most teams.

[QuantumButler]

lock on missiles useless?

******* finally, I ******* HATE the "incoming missile online" game that it's devolved into recently, at this point I'd love if they just ******* took lrms and ssrms out of the ******* game.

Slugfests are great and fun, I love the new metagame.

Edited by QuantumButler, 05 December 2012 - 04:38 AM.

[Nuck Fewton]

While not perfect, ECM is the best thing to happen to MWO in a long while. I'm actually having fun playing again.

[wanderer]

Stacked ECM = brawlfest.

I saw this happening last night- my team had a single ECM 'Mech, the opponent zero.

We were doing rather well when the ECM 'Mech pilot had to Alt-F4 out (politely, I might add) due to an emergency.

15 seconds later, we had three LRM carriers opening up on the team. (and were down 2 thanks to a starting DC + the ECM 'Mech)

In effect, one 'Mech had hard countered three- as the rest of us were gleefully blasting anyone dumb enough to stand out in the open where they could have painted us with TAG.

Another match, my team had zero ECM. I was in front, came around a corner and found six players pointed at me and "LOW SIGNAL".

Me- "6 guys by cave, ECM"

Four of my team-mates then didn't believe me and found out how good the magic missile invisibilty cloak was, as I couldn't do jack with my LRM racks and they most definitely could- and died to massed Streak/direct fire weaponry. We had one Dragon that was fast enough to get into the cave, hide, and power down while they capped instead of being totally destroyed.

If ECM remains as it is, expect a massive influx of the designs that use it. It neutralizes any guided missile systems and hides targets until they hit nose-picking range, and the team that brings more of it will have a decidedly high advantage.

One of the few pluses is the number of dead Jenners increased greatly. Watching them get ECM'd and then trying to duel with their scout-killing missiles disabled as a Raven casually dismantles them with their own SSRM racks (or even a Commando!) is almost worth it.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

MWO is now an Atlas D-DC FPS...

Any 8 man team with 6 Atlas D-DC with ECM and AMS and 2 ECM Cicadas will blow any non matched team out of the water (if the rest of the config is reasonable). Put max armour and large lasers, AC and sixpacks on the Atlas and you will rule.
Because there is no weight limit and ECM rules you will roflstomp anyone.
If the enemy actually drives a similar setup it will either be:
- who rushes base first
- FPS slugfest of Atlases, mostly won by chance and who can cuddle up and focus fire better

.... welcome to ECM/Atlas Online.... (this is of course only true for 8 man teams, for 4 man PUGfests I am sure this is different due to class matchmaking...)

[Pertti Munapirtti]

[REDACTED]

Edited by Stickjock, 05 December 2012 - 09:08 AM.
inappropriate language removed

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Actually, if you play a six med laser cicada, ECM does not affect you at all. Sure, the enemy damage screen flickers a bit now and then but that's pretty much it.

[Jakob Knight]

QuantumButler, on 05 December 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

lock on missiles useless?

******* finally, I ******* HATE the "incoming missile online" game that it's devolved into recently, at this point I'd love if they just ******* took lrms and ssrms out of the ******* game.

Slugfests are great and fun, I love the new metagame.

And this is why all the people saying ECM isn't unbalanced are simply Counterstrike players who are looking to may MWO the same game they used to play. 'If it isn't a slugfest and I have to think, then it needs to be changed so it's a slugfest!'.

The difference between those who whined about LRMs and those pointing out the unbalanced nature of ECM is that there are verifiable and objective logic reasons why ECM is out of balance and devolutionary to the game, whereas the LRM whiners were simply 'I hate LRMs'.

[Elkarlo]

One Suggestion: Give the ECM the Aweseome 8q and take it from the 3x Srm6 Atlas DC-C

Because today i say several game 6 Atlas DC-C clinging together... and simply everything comming in 270 meters range was missled... spray and pray on another varient it is now.

[Kantti]

It should be more like rock-paper-scissors, not having a rock that can be countered only by another rock both that will dominate everything else (and don't start with that TAG, any countering ECM setup is FAR more effective and achieves more good than you can ever do with TAG).

It also kills versality. Why would anybody take any other Raven/Cicada variant than the one with ECM? Have perhaps never seen worse FotM. What's worse is that this was told the devs before they implemented this just based on their patch notes as it was inevitable how metagame would change.

Worse still is that matchmaking in PUG doesn't take ECM in its calculations. Have been in matches where enemies have 3 ECMs and my team has zero. Even with most brilliant team play there is simply nothing one can do. 1 enemy ECM keeps their missileboats under umbrella while they launch salvo after salvo based on their ravens's spots - ravens that are virtually untouchable as they stay on move and can't be locked/targeted.

[Jemdeamon]

Nuck Fewton, on 05 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

While not perfect, ECM is the best thing to happen to MWO in a long while. I'm actually having fun playing again.

Same here. Its nice to run a Com-2d and not worry about getting cored right away. Though I do agree there is a balance issue. There are a couple of solutions to this.

1. Change the longer lock on to LRMs only. This way LRM support is still viable, you just have to work with your scouts a little better. Also make it possible to lock on using LOS. This just means no Targeting data will be given on the mech. In CBT LRMs are indirect fire weapons. Its why it is so hard to hit with a meaningful amount of missiles. Obviously this wont work in a live action shooter cause you cant select a grid to fire your LRMS at unless you are really high up. but if you can see your target i dont see why you shouldnt be able to manually target them

2. To help with the SSRM nerf people are complaining about. Make it possible to fire them with out the Streak System while the are in the AOF. In the CBT rules the ECM disables the Streak system on the missiles, when they come into the AOF of the ECM unit. The Launchers are still viable, you just lack the auto lock and kill function that has been the favorite for quite some time.

3. Get rid of the whole Counter ECM thing. That is technically a completely seperate system and completely outta context with the stated goal of the game. Having a built in counter makes it a EWE, or Electronic Warfare Equpipment. And in game terms it weighs 7 tons and takes up 5 crits.

Oh and after a bit of research I found something else. There are two different kinds of ECM.
The Gaurdian ECM which affect C3 networks, Beagle Active Probes, NARC Launchers and Artmis system.
And the Angle ECM which affects all the same systems plus the Streak Launchers, and Targeting Computers.