235 replies to this topic

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Sorry Pertti, you misunderstood me. By paying for it... I mean I am working on a way to kill you even if you are using it. As Kurupt said, Adapt and Overcome. It doesn't matter what "tag" you are wearing, I look to find a way to kill everyone. But thanks for playing. Come again!

Well if you're so good at finding new ways to kill everyone, I'm not sure what your problem with adapting to ECM is. It just means that you can't hide in your own base and press R to kill enemy team. Maybe you should learn to adapt to killing people with ECM and not whine about it on the forums.

[Joseph Mallan]

What Missiles need is a lock, Or for the target to stand still. Allow LRMs to establish a lock on an ECM only if LoS is present between the Missile boat and the target. No spotter. AND add more missile dispersion so Less missiles hit (Say 50%). This would work as a compromise in my eyes. Willing to discuss tweaking the idea.

[QuantumButler]

Piipu, on 05 December 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Well if you're so good at finding new ways to kill everyone, I'm not sure what your problem with adapting to ECM is. It just means that you can't hide in your own base and press R to kill enemy team. Maybe you should learn to adapt to killing people with ECM and not whine about it on the forums.

PGI devs have said ECM is a game changer, and so far it is, this is intentional guys, the devs never wanted the game to be long range missile warrior online.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

I personally don't think it's very appropriate to kill your teammates. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I know you think you understand what you thought I said but what you fail to realize is what I said is not exactly what I meant.

Thanks for playing!

Quote

Well if you're so good at finding new ways to kill everyone, I'm not sure what your problem with adapting to ECM is. It just means that you can't hide in your own base and press R to kill enemy team. Maybe you should learn to adapt to killing people with ECM and not whine about it on the forums.

I only had 2 hours of tinkering. I haven't whined. I said I think it's over powered, but I am working on concurring it without nerfing it. I quit being a missile boat when I got a computer that had more than 8 FpS. So know what tactics i use before you accuse me of the wrong one sir.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[Xeven]

This whole OP then nerf thing is a buisness model. Right now lots of people are buying a mech with ECM (Money sink). Lots buying an ECM system (money sink). Now after they get a few more MC purchases for the OP ECM next week it will get nerfed.

Lets see. UAC 5 OP then nerf along with the first strong Balistic Mech the Cataphract (money sink). So we got people to buy UAC 5's (Money sink), UAC 5 Ammo (Money sink), Cataphract 4X (Money Sink) then following week they nerfed it.

Add BAP (money sink) then nerfed with ECM.

Add Artemis (money sink), Missles become OP (Money sink), More people buy viable missle chasis (money sink) then they NERF it.

These things are not missing QA. New content is being released OP on purpose to get you to spend cash on it for those who do, then they nerf it. I would not believe it if it did not happen every single new content release.

Even if they are not doing it on puprose it is certainly making them money while their game is still in beta at the expense of the customer. Their balancing is costing you money (if your a paying player).

[Mercules]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

What Missiles need is a lock, Or for the target to stand still. Allow LRMs to establish a lock on an ECM only if LoS is present between the Missile boat and the target. No spotter. AND add more missile dispersion so Less missiles hit (Say 50%). This would work as a compromise in my eyes. Willing to discuss tweaking the idea.

I brought this up and was told that many might consider LRMs overpowered if they could lock on targets they have LoS too... I know.

[Bonedog]

Anyone who played Tabletop or even the telnet games knows what ecm does. It's not exactly any different here. The battlefield gets new weapons and technology when a new era reins in. With every advantage comes a disadvantage. Don't call something unbalanced because you can't join a match with 7 other LRM boats and score an epic win.

*EDITED FOR GRAMAR*

Edited by Bonedog, 05 December 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[Pertti Munapirtti]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

what you fail to realize is what I said is not exactly what I meant.

So the "marine" story was false? Now I get it.

[Alex Wolfe]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

there are verifiable and objective logic reasons why ECM is out of balance and devolutionary to the game, whereas the LRM whiners were simply 'I hate LRMs'.

Heh.

Without ECM, LRMs are too powerful (very high damage, especially on Artemisboats in LoS) for the skill/effort/risk required (none). If you can achieve same, or greater result with a no-aim, indirect-or-direct fire, 1000 m range weapon that you can stick with your team while using... as with an aimed, direct fire, leading-requiring, 270 m range weapon... why use the latter at all? LRMs made a joke of the metagame, then raidbosses kicked it when it was down.

Logical and verifiable enough? I even posted videos, what else do you need?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[Dukov Nook]

QuantumButler, on 05 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

PGI devs have said ECM is a game changer, and so far it is, this is intentional guys, the devs never wanted the game to be long range missile warrior online.

So, by breaking a core component of missles to essentially make them a less valuable addition to a tactical force, you move MWO from being a tactical mech sim to Unreal Tournament FPS.

[QuantumButler]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

So, by breaking a core component of missles to essentially make them a less valuable addition to a tactical force, you move MWO from being a tactical mech sim to Unreal Tournament FPS.

Yeah because simulating LRM trench warfare was so interesting and tactical.

[Felix]

QuantumButler, on 05 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yeah because simulating LRM trench warfare was so interesting and tactical.

Except the last round of nerfs fixed that nicely.

There was generally 1 or 2 LRM boats on each team in the PUG matches I played, leaving 6 other players to brawl and be supported

But some idiots kept whining "OMG 2 PEOPLE PLAYIN SUPPORT NEEERRRRFFF!"

So now because of those 'special' folk we got Brawltard Online

[KuruptU4Fun]

Here's how I've learned to counter ECM thus far from 8 hours of game play yesterday. Mind you I play with a group over comms, if you don't then your disadvantage starts there.

ECM mechs have an ECM logo over their heads, tell everyone to target that mech (IE Alpha/Bravo in the reticule) and destroy it first. This worked well with ATL-DC's. When it was a Raven on a Cicada, we targeted it and more often then not it got spooked and ran away long enough to kill other mechs.

We ran with a mech (most of the time 2) with ECM, when we had to switch to counter mode we did. This works when you communicate. Then my SSRM's worked fine and we started killing mechs.

Did we always win? Oh hell no, but we fought hard. Therefore we did our best to adapt and overcome.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 05 December 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Artgathan]

DivideByZer0, on 05 December 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Just want to point out that TAG range is increasing to 750m according to forums/developer's corner/command chair

The problem is that won't really solve anything. Groups equipped with ECM are already hugging areas where sight lines are short, so having a long range TAG won't really change much. Even if someone does manage to get into a position where the 750m TAG is viable, they're still going to be vulnerable to the long-range direct fire weapons (Gauss, PPC, LL, AC2) that have recently appeared in much greater numbers.

Now if we could launch an UAV (a la mechwarrior 5 trailer) equipped with TAG that would be a different story.

[Alex Wolfe]

Felix, on 05 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Except the last round of nerfs fixed that nicely.

"Last round of nerfs"?

The last change to LRMs was a completely unneeded damage buff . Before that, they got Artemis.

Their flight path was broken for a short while (back to orbital strikes from the Great LRM War I), but besides fixing that, they were being buffed constantly for a while, until LRM boats began popping back up.

Those "two LRM boats" are enough to INCOMING MISSILE the whole match, and no one could lift their head from the ditch in a non-130 kph mech, because two-three salvos would rip it off. They were not support, but extreme-easymode killers.

Artgathan, on 05 December 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

The problem is that won't really solve anything. Groups equipped with ECM are already hugging areas where sight lines are short, so having a long range TAG won't really change much. Even if someone does manage to get into a position where the 750m TAG is viable, they're still going to be vulnerable to the long-range direct fire weapons (Gauss, PPC, LL, AC2) that have recently appeared in much greater numbers.

Now if we could launch an UAV (a la mechwarrior 5 trailer) equipped with TAG that would be a different story.

Before ECM: "powerful LRMs are fine, you need a spotter, R+M1 is totally TEAMWORK you guys"

After ECM: "I'm not happy until I can own everything by myself with LRMs, spotters sux, give me TAG murder droids, give me my R+M1=1000 damage back".

Why am I not surprised. MWO, the "tactical" mech sim, apparently getting too tactical as we speak .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Dukov Nook]

QuantumButler, on 05 December 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yeah because simulating LRM trench warfare was so interesting and tactical.

Breaking LRMs, even artemis enabled is easy. It's what cover is for. Trust me, I know. I see people break lock and avoid well tracked LRM shots of mine on a regular basis.

Now, you don't need cover. Just a magical umbrella called ECM.

[Reitrix]

So my experience with ECM so far. I love it. Now heres why.

So i have a CN9D, nicknamed CN9-DUNCE. He is a Scout Hunter and heavy harrass build, 2 Streaks, 2 SLasers, 2 Machine Guns. he also runs a 390XL + Speed Tweak, I run close to 140kmph, lol.
So in my first match, Snow Forest, We have a Raven and Atlas with ECM.
I offer to scout the River, find a Dragon, Hunchie and Awesome, All under a Cicada's ECM. I warn my team, proceed to engage the Dragon and Hunchie. I spent 5 minutes dancing with these 2 'Mechs (Offtopic, holy crap what did you do to my netcode?! that was amazing! ~Aus280ping) Came out of that engagement with 2 half dead ammo less 'Mechs behind me, yellow armor and no shield arm armor, crossed the map to where my team was now 6v3ing the other guys, run smack into a Catapult, Founders, I run circles around him faster than he can twist his lasers at me, finish him off with MG fire to unarmored CT.
Continued into the cave to help the team finish off the Atlas. Victory. We had 2 ECM, they had 2 ECM. I scouted for my team and harrased them to keep as many mechs as i could off my team.
They did not scout. At all.
Also, full 8 Pug.

Second Match, in Frozen City. Again with my CN9-DUNCE, this time, the enemy has 2 Ravens, 2 Atlas and a Commando with ECM, we have 1 Atlas.
I scouted our left flank, told Team all clear, then scouted into the cave, found an ECM Raven + 2X'Phract. Get myself into cover and warn my team of whats coming, 2 team mates peel back to assist me. That done, I slipped through the cave out behind enemy lines, and drew away their ECMCommando, Killing it. At that point, they were all blobbed up in the middle. S again, into the blob i went, this time drawing out their last Raven, i pull it back over the hill out of range of his allies, and disable him. Team kills the Atlas and Centurion leftover.Another Victory. Again, I scouted for my team, the enemy did not, and simply blobbed up under the ECuMbrella.

Third game was River City. i tried my shiny new Muromets. Walked smack into a loner Ac20'Twincat. Nothing special in this matchup, lost due to lack of cohesive strategy. half went to the river line and the other half went to the city.

Now, in the matches i won, Teamwork and co-ordination overpowered the ECM blobs.
Information Warfare is live. Use your Scouts, use the information they relay to your team via Chat to counter the 'Mechs known to be walking in your direction.

Communication is KEY. Effective use of Scouting information leads to victories.

Offtopic: What the hell happened to the netcode? My Centurion lasts way longer than it ever did before, Seems like shots are landing/missing more accurately. By this i mean, i never saw lasers shoot the empty space 100 meters to my right and take my Arm off anyway. Shooting an Atlas in the eye with my Ac2/4X now registers the hits properly, instead of random locations. Close shaves with Lasers were exactly that. That was playing at 280 ping vs players with sub 100. So whatever they did ... Stamp of Approval.

[Felix]

Alex Wolfe, on 05 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

"Last round of nerfs"?

The last change to LRMs was a completely unneeded damage buff . Before that, they got Artemis.

Their flight path was broken for a short while (back to orbital strikes from the Great LRM War I), but besides fixing that, they were being buffed constantly for a while, until LRM boats began popping back up.

Those "two LRM boats" are enough to INCOMING MISSILE the whole match, and no one can lift their head from the ditch because two-three salvos would rip it off. They were not support, but extreme-easymode killers.

Ahh I took a break before the damage buff but after the Artemis fix.

I would average about 400 damage in a match with about 700 out of my 1000 missiles used.

But hey, they probobly buffed the damage with the thinking " well, no one is going to use these again after ECM so why dont we toss them a bone while their mechs are still somewhat useful!"

[Joseph Mallan]

Pertti Munapirtti, on 05 December 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

So the "marine" story was false? Now I get it.

You are a strange, strange man.
And wasting your energy trying to ruffle my feathers sir.
Thank you for playing.

I think ECM are working a bit to good, I am however still working on finding the kink in its armor. I just need to get home from work to continue to beat on this obsticle.

Quote

I brought this up and was told that many might consider LRMs overpowered if they could lock on targets they have LoS too... I know.

as fragile as LoS is at range, it isn't going to be OP, even if LoS is active still apply the greater missile spread so damage is still reduced sharply. ECM still has an advantage, but doesn't completely kill LRM use.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2012 - 06:52 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Really guys, ECM is flavor of the week/month, less ECM will be in play by next week.