126 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Moosehead, on 14 May 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Like how the Imperial Japanese fleet with the Yamato, the biggest battleship ever built, and 3 other battleships -RAN AWAY- from the sinking remains of the USN Taffy 3's sinking Destroyers and burning Escort Carriers?

Sometime the Strategic balance outweighs the Tactical

That was a tactical withdrawal. It had nothing to do with running away. Although they did learn that the Battleship was obsolete at that point in the timeline.

A 30% loss clause would be abused the same as a Retreat feature. Once a Player took a Gauss slug, and knew the exact repair cost to replace the lost armor/actuator/weapon, from even that one hit, they would simply Retreat forcing their mates to do the same or die.

Doesn't sound like FUN gameplay to me.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 14 May 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Vectoron]

I think crying over people who play nice with eachother is sorta..... LOL worthy. Its not our fault players work together to take down the enemy teams. seriously where did this post even come from? and ogre is right who is stopping lone wolves and the great houses from doing this? QQ Over stuff that matters please?

[Moosehead]

MaddMaxx, on 14 May 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Doesn't sound like FUN gameplay to me.

Oh, I'd agree that would result with a lot of Rage off that.

But there needs to be some mechanic to get Mercenaries to act like canon Mercs.

Sticks and carrots.


House units, as I see it, are more likely to fight to bitter end, since if they were following order and got thumped, they would get re-equipped from House Stocks.

Mercenary units tend to only have C-Bills

But if the two Mercenary groups put a rider in the contract to allow a deathmatch, so be it.

[Dihm]

No thank you.

[Moosehead]

Vectoron, on 14 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

I think crying over people who play nice with eachother is sorta..... LOL worthy. Its not our fault players work together to take down the enemy teams. seriously where did this post even come from? and ogre is right who is stopping lone wolves and the great houses from doing this? QQ Over stuff that matters please?

Call it the noob protection clause.

If wanted, could be a hardcore switch, to allow more salvage and xp gain, but also adds to a reputation score as ruthless, to let other groups know for matchmaking later on.

[MaddMaxx]

Moosehead, on 14 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Oh, I'd agree that would result with a lot of Rage off that.

But there needs to be some mechanic to get Mercenaries to act like canon Mercs.

Sticks and carrots.


House units, as I see it, are more likely to fight to bitter end, since if they were following order and got thumped, they would get re-equipped from House Stocks.

Mercenary units tend to only have C-Bills

But if the two Mercenary groups put a rider in the contract to allow a deathmatch, so be it.

Simply out of morbid curiosity, when woulds the Mercs put the rider in? After Planetfall one team would call out on all bandwidths, "We Fight To The Death! Do You Agree?"

Especially as seeing that ALL Contracts (iirc) are House generated...

[Banditman]

Bad idea.

First, I saw mentioned that "new" players could get easily raked over the coals because they won't know what they are doing. GOOD. "New" players shouldn't be starting corps. For this very reason! Merc leaders need to have enough knowledge and understanding of exactly what a given contract is asking to know if the risk will be worth the reward. That's part of the entire experience of the game!

Additionally, it encourages Merc corps with less skill to take difficult contracts that they have no hope or prayer of completing because they know ahead of time that their maximum loss is capped. In effect, it takes all the "risk" out of the equation for a Merc company. Terrible! They don't care if they complete the contract! They simply go in knowing that their losses are pre-capped.

It will also, inevitably, depress the value of ALL contracts. Contracts will only be let out with the 30% loss cap in mind. If you know a Merc company is going to bail at 30% losses, you're certainly not going to pay them as much!

Finally, until a LOT more details on the depth of the contract system are known, this is all just theorycrafting. This may be a complete non issue, or it may be a gamebreaking showstopper. Right now, there just aren't nearly enough detail available to make that determination.

[Major Tom]

That was a lot of twisting and turning to get to the meat of the question:

"should you be allowed to retreat/withdaw in this game"

It is a tough question, if you allies get chewed to bits, is it fair for you to take you shiny untouched Catapult away unscratched which you allies are forced to spend C-Bills on repair costs?
I think the answer is yes you should be able to evac (it is a much better solution than disconnecting), but that replair costs are pulled out of the group reward, and any left overs are split evenly, meaning you get to take your shiny Catapult offworld, but you end up paying for your buddies trashed hunchback.

Edited by Major Tom, 14 May 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Moosehead]

Banditman, on 14 May 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Bad idea.

First, I saw mentioned that "new" players could get easily raked over the coals because they won't know what they are doing. GOOD. "New" players shouldn't be starting corps. For this very reason! Merc leaders need to have enough knowledge and understanding of exactly what a given contract is asking to know if the risk will be worth the reward. That's part of the entire experience of the game!

Or leads to RageQuit

Edited by Moosehead, 14 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Moosehead]

MaddMaxx, on 14 May 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Simply out of morbid curiosity, when woulds the Mercs put the rider in? After Planetfall one team would call out on all bandwidths, "We Fight To The Death! Do You Agree?"

Especially as seeing that ALL Contracts (iirc) are House generated...

Decide your goal

does the contract have more C-Bills for completion than you could get by wiping out the defenders for salvage and XP

then you decide with this call

1 Thems that die'll be the lucky ones

or

2 All Ares Conventions will be respected

Defenders will fight harder on 1 than 2

Is it the mission completion or blood and thunder of driving your enemies before you, losing the mission , the true goal

[wwiiogre]

As far as I know there is no salvage at this time, there may be later, the devs have said that better rep mercs will get better contracts, not what that means tho. The devs have also said if you don't complete a match you get less, meaning no xp for pilot if you run away and possibly no or limited cbills. Thanks but no thanks, I want to be able to decide when and where I fight to the death. Going in with my friends in the merc corps I am part of that allows me to choose who to fight with and who to go to the wall for if I choose to. Not some I need a win button low self esteem player that needs their participation ribbon for just showing up.

Please, this game is supposed to be about skill, pilot skill. It is also about roles, and teamwork. But you want to punish players that learn how to do that by giving players that don't have those skills and EASY button. Sorry, bad idea. Play Mech Assault if you want an EASY button with no heat, unlimited ammo, magic repair boxes, don't hurt me I am a noob.

Our Merc corps takes new players, and we spend time teaching them, training them to be better players, I hope the Houses will do the same thing. Lone Wolf players are for those that just want to get in the game and shoot stuff. I suggest Drop ship mode, which is a non meta game mode that allows players to drop, learn, shoot and have fun. But expect the Meta Game players that are fighting for territory to play at a higher level. Why nerf the serious players when there is already a planned play ground for new players?

chris

[Guido]

wwiiogre, on 14 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

As far as I know there is no salvage at this time, there may be later, the devs have said that better rep mercs will get better contracts, not what that means tho. The devs have also said if you don't complete a match you get less, meaning no xp for pilot if you run away and possibly no or limited cbills. Thanks but no thanks, I want to be able to decide when and where I fight to the death. Going in with my friends in the merc corps I am part of that allows me to choose who to fight with and who to go to the wall for if I choose to. Not some I need a win button low self esteem player that needs their participation ribbon for just showing up.

Please, this game is supposed to be about skill, pilot skill. It is also about roles, and teamwork. But you want to punish players that learn how to do that by giving players that don't have those skills and EASY button. Sorry, bad idea. Play Mech Assault if you want an EASY button with no heat, unlimited ammo, magic repair boxes, don't hurt me I am a noob.

Our Merc corps takes new players, and we spend time teaching them, training them to be better players, I hope the Houses will do the same thing. Lone Wolf players are for those that just want to get in the game and shoot stuff. I suggest Drop ship mode, which is a non meta game mode that allows players to drop, learn, shoot and have fun. But expect the Meta Game players that are fighting for territory to play at a higher level. Why nerf the serious players when there is already a planned play ground for new players?

chris

I completely agree with this. Merc corps spend a lot of time training their members, because they'll be putting money and reputation on them to win. There understandably isn't as much of an incentive for a house player, other than the "Big V" and a planet territory. That doesn't mean the house shouldn't train their members as well, but there shouldn't be a penalty because the MERC GROUPS TRAIN like any military unit should be doing.

There's a place for newer players, and a place for experienced players. If there was an easy handicap like that, then merc units would have an incredibly hard time winning a match. The battle would be a house-player rush to find the merc unit and lemming until they take out 30% of the BV.

Being a merc is a risky business, and if you want to talk canonically about it, there are thousands of failed/obliterated mercenary groups littering the Battletech history. Nerfing the game, so that when Johnny Smoe start his Purple Pony Protectorates and takes a job too tough for his group he doesn't risk anything, isn't the making of a good game.

I can see having an option for a merc unit to retreat from a battlefield before the game is over as viable, but not a damage limit clause.

Edited by Guido, 14 May 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

wwiiogre, on 14 May 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

No and hell no. The thing about mercenaries is we have our own sense of stop/loss. The gist I get from the op is that its not fair in a sim/war game if one side works closer together and trains and is better, so in your mind there needs to be an artificial win for anyone facing Mercs....
Chris

I know where you are coming from Chris, I do. What the OP is proposing is a slaughter rule that will help with new player retention and game longevity. I'm at a gut check "no, hell no" level on this or being told what to do with my spare time in general. But think CYA... can't say now that we never offered this voluntarily ;P. What would be good is for these terms to be NEGOTIABLE between teams. Offering incentives in a buyers market is typically a good approach. Basically they come together on an agreement of what they think the winning odds are for each team. Why not allow C-bill wagering as well?

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 14 May 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Insidious, the casual player should be playing Drop Ship Mode, not meta game in the IS. So if they want to swim in the open water, they better beware of sharks. I am part of the training unit for our Merc Corps, so I get to greet the new players, try to help them setup MW4mercs free from Mektek so we can all knock the rust off and remember some of the skill we have lost, but also to help them learn comms discipline, fire discipline, etc and to work together to a plan and to react and recover together to a surprise or ambush. We aren't just training Mechwarriors but also helping each player find out what part of the game is fun for them. We have parts of our Merc Corps that are for the not so serious, but we also want those players to be able to drop with the hardcore and still be able to be part of the team. We are only as strong as our weakest link, and we have young players and never played before players in our unit. So we are letting everyone in if they follow a few basic ideas. Then they will slot into whichever unit suits them and they feel most comfortable with.

This game is months out still and we are getting company sized engagements during training already. So I look forward to MWO so we can all learn the new game together and help PGI find a balance for all types of players. Drop Ship Mode seems to me to be the casual gamer area with respawns, etc. While meta game win/lose planets etc and contracts seems to be the Hardcore mode. Hopefully during open beta we can help PGI make this an amazing game for everyone's tastes. But you can never please everyone, and there never should be an EASY button in a simulation of combat. But there should be training areas and new player areas that can bring them around to the fun part of the hardcore style game.

Chris

[Grithis]

This was said in the Community Warfare Blog, back in December:

• Faction Worlds – Are fought over by Faction players. These planets buffer core and border worlds, and do not play a significant role in major historical events. Rewards for controlling these planets are directly linked to global bonuses and abilities associated with a player’s Faction.
  
• Border Worlds – Are fought over via a contract bidding system by player run Mercenary Corporations. These planets change hands on a regular basis, and have no impact on historical events. Rewards for controlling a border world are significant and go directly to the occupying Merc Corp

This being said, there's no point in looking at anything to make Faction vs. Merc fights balanced, as they will not be fighting each other

[wwiiogre]

Ahh but Mercs can work for Houses and then fight on Faction worlds for the right price.

Chris

[Grithis]

wwiiogre, on 14 May 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Ahh but Mercs can work for Houses and then fight on Faction worlds for the right price.

Chris

When was that said?

[Kanatta Jing]

I would like to be able to fit a Mercenary lance into a House Company to make sure the numbers are met for a battle.

[Volthorne]

Kanatta Jing, on 14 May 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

I would like to be able to fit a Mercenary lance into a House Company to make sure the numbers are met for a battle.

You realize there's going to be easily 10k+ players per House, right? Finding 11 people to drop with from your House shouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Volthorne, 14 May 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

A lot to think on, a lot of good dicussion, thank you everyone.