176 replies to this topic

[Osiris1975]

I think in general ECM has made this game much better. It promotes teamwork and tactics, as has been mentioned by many people. Having said that, I do think it is slightly unbalanced, and at the same time, I think it works exactly as it should. So some minor tweaks (Yes, I know PGI has trouble tweaking things with finesse like the UAC5 going from 10% to 25% jam rate nonsense) to OTHER systems can bring balance without changing ECM itself.

-TAG needs two changes, one of which sounds like it is in testing already, which would be a range increase. This will make it practical for to be used against targets in an ECM bubble. The second change is an ease-of-use issue. Rather than force people to hold down the button to paint the target, it should be a toggle.

-Allow a ERPPC/PPC hits to disrupt neutralize ECM function until the mech hit by the PPC cycles its power (shutdown/startup). Alternatively, the disruption could last for some set amount of time. This creates added value for PPC weapons, and again promotes teamwork as PPC-carrying mechs can help their LRM friends out. For PUG players, they'll be able to create combination PPC/LRM boats and have a shot at dealing with ECM themselves, where cooperation isn't as good as premades.

[Codejack]

Boymonkey, on 06 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Oh please dude all your polls and others polls from the last day show that people are loving ECM, they will improve other things that help counter it in the next patch or so.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-balance-poll/

Quote

Yes, ecm is balanced. (143 votes [33.65%]

Liar.

Edited by Codejack, 06 December 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[Tilon]

The problem is that ECM is supposed to create a bubble of disruption in 200 meters around it, but for some reason the devs made it do that, AND made it project a magic force field around itself and friendly mechs that disrupts the targeting of mechs 4x outside the ECM's effective range.

Makes no sense. ECM has never did anything of the sort in Battletech.

[Boymonkey]

Nah the new polls are showing people like how they are, that poll was soooo yesterday before people understood ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...ejacks-ecm-fix/

http://mwomercs.com/...cm-change-poll/

Oh and stop calling people names...are you 12 or something?

Oh and learn to aim your SRM's dude.

Edited by Boymonkey, 06 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

This thread is becoming enriched with back-and-forth insults and/or "nonconstructive" banter.

I would like everyone who wants the Developers to know how you feel about ECM to post your opinions and comments in the Official ECM Feedback thread. That thread, in the Patch Feedback and Support Forum, is dedicated specifically to gathering the Community's feelings on ECM and how it makes/breaks the game. If a user would like to write or contribute to a Guide on how to counter ECM, then the General Guides section of the forums would be an excellent place to post or create a new thread.

If you want to continue discussing ECM and its general role in the game, then please keep it civil.

[Boymonkey]

Prosperity Park, on 06 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

This thread is becoming enriched with back-and-forth insults and/or "nonconstructive" banter.

I would like everyone who wants the Developers to know how you feel about ECM to post your opinions and comments in the Official ECM Feedback thread. That thread, in the Patch Feedback and Support Forum, is dedicated specifically to gathering the Community's feelings on ECM and how it makes/breaks the game. If a user would like to write or contribute to a Guide on how to counter ECM, then the General Guides section of the forums would be an excellent place to post or create a new thread.

If you want to continue discussing ECM and its general role in the game, then please keep it civil.

Then please stop certain members making the same thread 3 times etc. Thanks
Oh and shut it down, no point being alive this thread.

Edited by Boymonkey, 06 December 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Tilon]

ECM projects electronic 'noise' that jams electronics.

You cannot simultaneously broadcast noise and cloak yourself against LRMs outside your jamming range.

ECM as currently implemented not only makes no sense, it's imbalanced. The thing weighs as much as a ton and a half of AMS ammo, for God's sake. A heatsink and a half!

[Asmudius Heng]

Boymonkey, on 06 December 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Nah the new polls are showing people like how they are, that poll was soooo yesterday before people understood ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...ejacks-ecm-fix/

http://mwomercs.com/...cm-change-poll/

Oh and stop calling people names...are you 12 or something?

Oh and learn to aim your SRM's dude.

Those polls are in relation to specific fixes. When people vote against the fix they are not saying ECM is balanced just they have a different opinion of what that balance should be.

Straight polls on balance vs unbalance without a specific solution says different.

In the end the developers need to see how the game plays with their own eyes in competitive play and PUG play. Then look at the LOGIC of what people are saying.

Quite frankly the people offering good logical arguments all seem to say that ECM need some change. All ECM lovers i have seen so far insult the others are crying LRM/SSRM users, simply say 'teamwork is teh answer lols' without going into any detail apart from 'TAG duh' and when told that TAG is not terribly effective they come back telling them that they need to L2P.

So far those who are lobbying for ECM change are putting forth fairly logical arguments while those supporting ECM seem to be the ones be behaving like children from the posts i have seen.

[Boymonkey]

Going over here now,
http://mwomercs.com/...4-ecm-feedback/

[Lerzpftz]

Asmudius Heng, on 06 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

You must be fighting some mighty poor n00bs if they cannot use ECM to its benefit instead of sitting there like morons.

In the 50-60 games since ECM is in, i should have met the average player-base. And usually you can shoot at moving mechs too! There is nothing prohibiting this in the game. Most opponents running closely grouped, make it easier to hit something, if you missed the original target.

Asmudius Heng, on 06 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Without ECM they would do the same AND you could target them. Fighting poor opposition is not a good call to say ECM is fine.

Basing your opinion on the made up "observation", that my opposition must have been playing badly, is not a good call to say ECM is overpowered.

It's simply that I realized that i don't need to target them. It's enough to hit them, until they fall apart! You can actually see them on your screen and try to remember, where you hit them ... and shoot that place again. Even with a target locked in, it doesn't help to shoot the rectangle. You have to hit the mech inside it! This tactic even works with no big red rectangle beeing visible at all. That said, it seems to help some people, if you shoot the ECM mech down first.

Asmudius Heng, on 06 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Streak cats were fine too when i faced guys who could hardly pilot as well !

Which worked for their first game. Once they found out how to press R and read the range to an enemy, they where pretty damn hard to beat, once they got close.

[Tilon]

Sarna.net:

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

When this becomes somewhat true, ECM will be balanced. Currently, it is jamming mechs far outside of its effective range, which makes no sense.

What, is the enemy mech somehow jamming itself to prevent LRMs from locking on at 800 meters distant?

Current implementation makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Lerzpftz]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Sarna.net:



When this becomes somewhat true, ECM will be balanced. Currently, it is jamming mechs far outside of its effective range, which makes no sense.

What, is the enemy mech somehow jamming itself to prevent LRMs from locking on at 800 meters distant?

Current implementation makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Giant human-controlled battle robots firing lasers over 300 meters at each other make no logical sense whatsoever. They make good mood inside of me, but no sense. (Pssst....it's only in your fantasy those things really walk around. )

Edited by Lerzpftz, 06 December 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Lerzpftz, on 06 December 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

In the 50-60 games since ECM is in, i should have met the average player-base. And usually you can shoot at moving mechs too! There is nothing prohibiting this in the game. Most opponents running closely grouped, make it easier to hit something, if you missed the original target.

They would have to bunched up so closely for that that they would be blocking each others line of fire and so are n00bs.
Closely grouped means you have more targets to choose form to pick the best and easiest hit yes ... however if they were not n00bs the reason for grouping up is so that all your mechs can fire back on a single enemy mech when it emerges. If you are not being shot back by at least 2 mechs they are doing grouping wrong.

Quote

Basing your opinion on the made up "observation", that my opposition must have been playing badly, is not a good call to say ECM is overpowered.

It's simply that I realized that i don't need to target them. It's enough to hit them, until they fall apart! You can actually see them on your screen and try to remember, where you hit them ... and shoot that place again. Even with a target locked in, it doesn't help to shoot the rectangle. You have to hit the mech inside it! This tactic even works with no big red rectangle beeing visible at all. That said, it seems to help some people, if you shoot the ECM mech down first.

For you to consider them good players is just as big a fallacy. What you need to do is think what YOU would do if YOU were that player. When YOU are in the same psoition to that skills are equal. If you are screaming at them for being n00bs then they are more n00b than you! If you think they are doing a good job then why are you lambasting them by saying how easy they are to hit??

Locking allows you to see damaged locations to pick the best point to attack. The stealth part of that stops you doing it - thats fine - blocking your LRMs unless someone manages to TAG them is not as good. If they are half decent players they wipe off the TAG quickly and get to cover anyway. If they are sitting as a group, in the open, with little cover, allowing you to pick and choose what to hit, and you are not getting slammed back - This means they are not good players and ECM has just made them choose a bad tactic with the only up side being LRM immunity and SSRM immunity.

So ... lets look at those logical steps. You are fighting random people with little co-ordination who are doing really bad play if they take very little of the advantages ECM is giving them.

The other option as often happens is you greatly overstate your own abilities.

Quote

Which worked for their first game. Once they found out how to press R and read the range to an enemy, they where pretty damn hard to beat, once they got close.

That is my point ... ok, mybe i have to explain this in individual steps.

1. People say ECM is fine and there is no problem with it and you just need to learn to counter it. Balanced.
2. People who play against people who are bad at USING ECM think it is balanced because they have not seen its true potential for brokenness.
3. People who play against disorganised and poorly skills (new) players think a system is balanced.
4. When faced with people who abuse the hell out of said system people realise it is OP

Now ... replaced ECM with Streak Cats.

Did i make myself more clear?

[Gaeb]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

http://youtu.be/VCEEt0_PTgo

I'm sorry, you guys were saying something?

Good lord the pilot in that video is a bad shot.

[Stargazer86]

Asmudius Heng, on 06 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

1. People say ECM is fine and there is no problem with it and you just need to learn to counter it. Balanced.
2. People who play against people who are bad at USING ECM think it is balanced because they have not seen its true potential for brokenness.
3. People who play against disorganised and poorly skills (new) players think a system is balanced.
4. When faced with people who abuse the hell out of said system people realise it is OP

Now ... replaced ECM with Streak Cats.

Did i make myself more clear?

But but...Streakcats were OP! ECM beats Streakcats, so it must be fine!

People who claim that ECM was the solution to Streakcats apparently think of it as a positive "fix".I don't believe they think of the possibility that it's simply one OP mechanic being more powerful than the other. What do you do to break a rock? Smash it with a larger rock.

Edited by Stargazer86, 06 December 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Stargazer86, on 06 December 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

But but...Streakcats were OP! ECM beats Streakcats, so it must be fine!

People who claim that ECM was the solution to Streakcats apparently think of it as a positive "fix".I don't believe they think of the possibility that it's simply one OP mechanic being more powerful than the other. What do you do to break a rock? Smash it with a larger rock.

Swallow the spider to eat the fly you swallowed and so forth.

Also ecosystem ... anyone form Australia will understand how introducing cane toads might have killed the insects eating the crop ... but the consequences of the frogs breeding ...

Balance is an ecosystem. In fact, i made a topic with that exact name a while back which got largly ignored due to its logical nature and lake of flame bait.

Pity the devs must only see the **** storms ...

[Corvus Antaka]

Bluten, on 05 December 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

It's not really harder or easier as a pug... it's just been watered down into an ECM huddle base rush, where as before, it had actual strategy. Now, you're just going to follow the ECM guy to the enemy base and try to cap first or have a single game determining brawl. I liked rowed fights where people used terrain tactically or tried to defend. Why bother with any of that now? Just follow the ECM guy from point A to point B. With LRMs now entirely worthless, there's nothing to really stop you from just bumrushing to the enemy force to spam Medium Lasers and AC 20s.

Edit: I'm going to explain this in better detail because I don't think many people understood what we had. Enemies aren't going to hit you with ER PPCs or Gauss Rifles while you're moving to them quickly and in between cover. Long range weapons such as those were basically a counter to LRM boats, which were a counter to rushers. So you see, we had a nice circle going here. Now the long range has no point because the LRMs are useless all on their own, thus opposing teams just rush to the enemy base or to close range to brawl it out. There's no longer a reason or point to playing tactically or cautiously. Just rush to the enemy base. Either they won't be there thus you'll take the base and win, or they will be forced to close distance to fight you. Yanking LRMs out of this game sucks a great deal of fun out of it... unless you just liked nothing but mindless 300 meter brawl fights.

This is a key point. The best strategy now as an 8 man premade is to ECM 1-4 mechs, and find a base rush channel. If you run into the enemy, you have a quick fight, win or lose, GG.

If you dont run into the enemy, and both teams go for cap, one of you wins or loses quickly.

Using this strategy gaurentees at least a 50% win/loss. LRMS cant touch you, TAG . NARC won't help even if buffed.

Infact even 1 mech with ECM can shield the entire team, and thats really all that is needed.

You farm money fast, win or lose the games go super quick and the money poors in.

Strategy? worthless. And no matter what the ECM fanboys might scream for strategy, no, sorry, it's worthless. Because my base rush, even if I lose more than 50%, will still gaurentee me a higher hourly income.

And since ECM gaurentees my team is invisible, I can avoid repair costs & ammo refills.

At least before ECM we could find our enemy, and while the part bus worked, it never worked this good.

I could alternatively order my 8 man to rush to E5 on caustic and hold, exactly what we did before ECM, but now we are all invisible to boot.

But why bother? I have to deal with invincible light mechs swarming my ankles, we have to counter EACH ECM, so if we run into 6 ECM mechs and we only have 4 all our SSRMS/LRMS are pretty near worthless.

I like the ECM, but it is WAY OP right now, and very unnessarily so. The only good thing to come from the ECM is that the game isn't SSRM boat warrior anymore.

I miss dodging LRMS and using my brain to avoid them, not having a magic ECM to protect me cause I am too dumb to find cover from them. I miss being terrified of "incomming missile" and not ever seeing it.

But at the core it's not ECM that has to change. It's PGI figuring out what makes for good mechwarrior gameplay, and 8 Atlas D-DC with ECM is not it.

TT is being taken to far, whatever the vision for the game is, mech4 did a great job of giving us what ECM does now while having viable and good counters.

yeah the ECM effect is cool, the toggle ability is cool, but the gameplay that is resulting from this is bad. I prefer brawling, its causing brawling, and yet the gameplay is still bad.

Ideal mech is no the coring mech, 9 medium lasers, 2 gauss, or anything with an ECM, the more the better since only ECM can counter ECM.

And no, just having ECM doesn't mean I win, but it very obviously has removed LRM's and SSRM's from 8 man gameplay, and the only reason PUG gameplay isn't there yet is because they don't have the ECM's or the coordination yet.

Why would you ever take a weapon to battle that has ANY chance of being negated, when you could just bring a good coring mech that doesn't need radar at all to kill stuff instead?

You wouldn't, unless you needed ssrm's to kill lagshielded light mechs, probably the only reason we even see any missiles at this point.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Codejack, on 05 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Well, we've had enough feedback, now, and certainly enough experience. Simple game theory tells you how this will work out: You have one system that counters several other systems, and its only counter is itself, which leads to massive imbalances depending on which team has more ECM mechs. Which means that smart teams are running 2+ ECM mechs, which gives them an even bigger advantage than they had before.

I only PUG; my friends don't play PvP games (I'm only here because I am, and always have been, a Mechwarrior fanatic) and I'm not interested in the guild/house/[REDACTED] system so I can play with random strangers, so the choice I face every drop is: Run my ECM mech and hope that the other side doesn't have more, or run one of my fun mechs and hope that everyone on the other side is stupid.

That's the entire balance of the game. The Rochambeau system has been turned into rock-paper-shotgun.

At the very least, there need to be counters to ECM other than, "more ECM." NARC and BAP should each counter ECM in different ways (one long range and one short range?). TAG shouldn't have to keep painting the target so you can lock. The detection range decrease is just insane.

As near as I can tell, the ECM system was balanced against the current state of the game, which is just ALL screwed up due to optimization and netcode issues. Basically, they set out to eliminate the streakcat, and they wound up eliminating all but 4 mechs.

i know this guy was a streakcat player but even so ecm has given us 2 major drawbacks

1: deterring the use of many missle systems not just whinge whinge streak cat ahah you can't do it now. i'm sad to see many matches i play in and there's about 2 lrm users at best which has lead to...

2: serious mindwashing of tactics that's lead to huddle ecm play and brawls being the main stay. as a sniper and therefore firesupport i feel oudated redundant and can only find enjoyment when there are no ecms which means everyone will behave like hunters instead of stealth groups brawling their way to a quick cap.

the game is lacking a lot of different builds now and if ecm is around the fighting is so predictable and dull.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 December 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[Salient]

Its FINE. Please say goodbye to your ez mode weapons forever and learn to shoot gunz. k thx bai.

[Codejack]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 December 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

i know this guy was a streakcat player but even so ecm has given us 2 major drawbacks

1: deterring the use of many missle systems not just whinge whinge streak cat ahah you can't do it now. i'm sad to see many matches i play in and there's about 2 lrm users at best which has lead to...

2: serious mindwashing of tactics that's lead to huddle ecm play and brawls being the main stay. as a sniper and therefore firesupport i feel oudated redundant and can only find enjoyment when there are no ecms which means everyone will behave like hunters instead of stealth groups brawling their way to a quick cap.

the game is lacking a lot of different builds now and if ecm is around the fighting is so predictable and dull.

Salient, on 06 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Its FINE. Please say goodbye to your ez mode weapons forever and learn to shoot gunz. k thx bai.

I hope Salient enjoys playing with himself, because that attitude will kill this game.