117 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 06 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yeah but BAP in the other mechwarrior games is the counter to ECM.

And in this one, the counter to ECM is...an ECM in Counter mode. Go figure.

I do think BAP should mitigate some of the effects of ECM, but never eliminate them.

[Elkarlo]

Remove ECM because it incorperates LAG-Shield.
And thats totally unfair.

And yes i will troll a lot about it, because i have lot of time now...

[wanderer]

Duvanor, on 06 December 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Of course ECM does not block LRM locks in TT. LRMs in TT don't get a real lock. They are semi-guided. The guided missiles in MWO are a boost by PGI. So let them give us some toys to counter these gift. You still can shoot unguided LRMs like in TT.

Except "unguided" LRMs in TT aren't truly unguided- they do get course correction in-flight from the 'Mech firing them.

Standard LRMs just have a very simple guidance system that ECM can't screw with. ECM screws anything fancier up- the IR beams from TAG/Artemis and the beacon signals from NARC, plus the fancy telemetry data C3 delivers or the advanced target computer systems many later-tech 'Mechs use for more precise fire.

The guy pointing a standard LRM rack at you in Battletech doesn't give a flying fig about ECM, there's nothing fancy about his missiles to be confused by it. Yet somehow, in MWO it's the magic missile shield that prevents LRMs from functioning at normal levels. That's overdoing a "solution" to LRMs.

[Nuclear Weapon]

Just fix the damn Netcode !!!

Lag shoot to those ECM carriers is a darn pain...



If they fix the netcode, we will be even

[Flapdrol]

ECM, only on ravens with 245 engine restriction, maybe even stricter. that would balance it out nicely, no lag shield.

Edited by Flapdrol, 06 December 2012 - 07:40 AM.

[Mercules]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Except "unguided" LRMs in TT aren't truly unguided- they do get course correction in-flight from the 'Mech firing them.

Standard LRMs just have a very simple guidance system that ECM can't screw with. ECM screws anything fancier up- the IR beams from TAG/Artemis and the beacon signals from NARC, plus the fancy telemetry data C3 delivers or the advanced target computer systems many later-tech 'Mechs use for more precise fire.

The guy pointing a standard LRM rack at you in Battletech doesn't give a flying fig about ECM, there's nothing fancy about his missiles to be confused by it. Yet somehow, in MWO it's the magic missile shield that prevents LRMs from functioning at normal levels. That's overdoing a "solution" to LRMs.

But again, this is not because of ECM it is because LRMs should not ~require a lock~ to fire. They don't right now you can dumb fire them but because they track the way they do the are balanced by moving slowly and dumb fire will only really hit a mech that is standing still and not too far off. The solution to ECM messing up LRMs and Streaks is not messing with ECM, but altering LRMs and Streaks.

http://mwomercs.com/...add-a-band-aid/

[Ronin13m]

I like the unguided option for LRM's and they are great fun when they fire off from your mech and nouse dive into the ground. Or like the Balisics when you stand next to a building and fire off they do not go to your target but to the left or right as though the building has a very large magnetic pull.

But why not let the LRM mech pull up the battle grid and rain fire and death on a grid by selecting the grid. This would allow for inderect fire support and let you know where you where hitting. Would make interesting play stile since it would allow for the scouts to note the grid the target is in and then you lob lrms that way.

[ReD3y3]

ECM is perfect like it is.

It brings TONS of gameplay strategy into MWO.

If you do anything, buff tag.

Give it a longer linger after the inital point. Give it more range. Give it the ability to give locks through ecm.

[codynyc]

i like the way mw4 had it

a mech without ecm was detecable at 800m if the detecting mech had bap they could see them at 1200
A mech with ecm was undectable till 500m and if the dectecting mech had bap they were detectable at 600m



ravens and lokis(clan) would play in that 600m area
only the mech with ecm was hidden pgi can reduce the bubble for this 180 is a bit much maybe to 90m ( small laer area)

Edited by codynyc, 06 December 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[J0anna]

My observations with ECM differ from most here I guess. First off I noticed a change in lag as ECM mechs got around me. I would press the fire button and there was a noticeable delay in my SRM’s firing. I was leading small fast mechs by upwards of 3 times the size of the mech (in other words, if the commando was at point “A”, and heading towards point “B”, I was aiming 3xcommando’s in front of his current position and hitting with my rockets). Eventually, I just gave up trying to hit small mechs, and worked on taking down their bigger friends.

In every match I played, the team with the most ECM (and certainly the team with the last ECM) won except for one. That one was a fluke (a cicada ran straight into 6 of us, and got shredded, leaving both teams with no ECM). However the problems I see with ECM are:

1) There is no ‘downside’ to using it. You have normal sighting and range while under your ‘ecm blanket’ – ECM should effect both sides (people advancing under ECM lose the ability to see outside 200m).

2) The only viable counter is to bring more ECM, which limits what people can bring. There should be a counter more mechs can use.

3) A couple games quickly degraded into a point blank slugfest (as both sides advanced under an ECM blanket and moved from cover to cover), as such small, and certainly medium mechs are at an extreme disadvantage against heavies and assaults. Since the game doesn’t bother balancing anything other than assaults, medium mechs quickly become a liability, i.e. just bring more heavies. By turning the game into 200m slugfests, medium mechs that aren’t ecm cicadas have no real role. – Enforce weight differences in matches.

4) Some other games wound up being up being ‘sneak-fests’ as both teams took different routes to the enemy base and never saw the other team, had quite a few of these – having more solutions would fix this.

5) Anyone who brings LRM’s or SSRM’s is being foolish. Bringing a weapon that you could ‘possibly’ use, is greatly inferior to bringing a slightly inferior weapon that you can use. Especially if you were use to bringing a few of them, as devoting 30% to 50% of your available ‘weapon weight’ to a weapon you ‘might use’ isn’t a good idea. I would suggest that these weapons fire in “direct fire” mode (i.e. SSRM’s work like SRM’s and LRM’s work like LB 10-x and travel in a straight line (no tracking), I would also reduce their damage in “direct-fire” mode, to add in some negatives (reduced damage) using them instead or SRM’s (the greater weight isn’t enough of a deterrent).

6) ECM really doesn’t have a counter, as you know immediately when your ECM is being countered and will quickly find the enemy scout w/in 200m that’s doing it. Using ECCM or some other counter should give no warning whatsoever to the group using ECM, let them think everything is fine (and give them no “incoming missile warning” as ECM blocks that) until the LRM’s start raining down on them.

7) Offense is greatly improved over defense, to the extent that rushes are becoming far more prevalent. Now it’s becoming huddle up, advance as a group and shoot anything you run into…Different tactics sure, but not necessarily better.

Edited by Moenrg, 06 December 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Naeron66]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

*rolls eyes*

Why I even try to use reason with people.

You are not using reason, you are using arrogance

Just because ECM is "balanced" in premades does not mean its balanced everywhere.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

FINE.

ECM is horribly overpowered wah wah wah. I guess my Unit is just that much better than everyone else then (damn we must have joined BWC!) since we defeated multi-ECM at every turn last night.

Must suck to be one of the unwashed masses.

Yeah, proud member if the unwashed masses here. Solo player PUGs cannot defeat multi-ECM very often, just played solo and with a 4 man today. 20 matches and 19 wins (and I died 3 times) and in every match it was easy to neutralise the oppositions missile capability. With the premade games even if the other team had ECM that mech melted under concentrated fire.

The unwashed masses (solo players and casual players) are what will make MWO a long term success or a failure. There are far more of them out there (potentially millions) and they do spend money, not all of them and not in the same amounts but they do spend it. ECM makes their playing experience more complicated and less pleasant, which is a very bad thing for the game.

Edited by Naeron66, 06 December 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Clubs]

When seemingly 50 percent of the mechs in a match consist of 4 varients out of the 44 in the game at the moment then yeah ECM is perfect. Leave it as it.

New people only need to buy 4 mechs and can ignore the rest now. Few play mediums except for the Cicada. Just get a Raven and a D-DC and you are set now.

My only real complaint is that they should have named Guardian ECM what is really is. Angel ECM.

Edited by Clubs, 06 December 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[RumRunner151]

Dont fix it if it aint broke. ECM is fine.

[Clubs]

Naeron66, on 06 December 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

The unwashed masses (solo players and casual players) are what will make MWO a long term success or a failure. There are far more of them out there (potentially millions) and they do spend money, not all of them and not in the same amounts but they do spend it. ECM makes their playing experience more complicated and less pleasant, which is a very bad thing for the game.

I have no doubt that the current state will turn off new players.

Some folk have not pugged alone in months and the game is very different than it was in July and August.

I still pug alone now and then but largely do 8 mans.

Make a second account, run in a trial alone with pugs. See how the new experience is now.

There are a lot of games out there that are easier to pick up and learn then mwo and don't have wild swings each week in gameplay.

If I were a new player that spent money or grinded for a missile boat last week not sure If I would continue to play now.

Some people won't care or try to teach new players until it is too late and the game shuts down.

Perhaps I am just ranting now.

[Clubs]

RumRunner151, on 06 December 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Dont fix it if it aint broke. ECM is fine.

Yeah the Pug that TKed someone yesterday because he couldn't tell friend from foe was hilarious.

[BoomDog]

Bluten, on 05 December 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I explained in my wall that the ECM shouldn't be the counter for the ECM. We have other weapons for that and they are what should be counterweights. But instead Piranha made them worthless for their logical purpose and want you to use only ECMs to counter ECMs. This doesn't make any sense. The BAP should be a counter... not another ECM... But no, just bring ECMs, to use and counter. Why bring anything else? Why even have this other stuff in the game if they aren't worth anything? The BAP was already bad before, now it's just a hunk of junk.(Along with the sensor module, Artemis, and NARC. They're all completely worthless. You should have a problem with this.)

I also never said anything about rendering the ECM useless. I don't work at Piranha. That's something they would do.(And already did. See the BAP) It should offer jamming and added missile protection(note "protection" and "immunity" are not the same thing).

This is true. Every other device pales in comparison to ECM right now.

ECM would be powerful even if it only affected one mech, let alone everything within 180 meters.

Is it true that you don't get blue triangles over the heads of friendly mechs if affected by ECM? If that's the case, it seems like that would be VERY important information to tell people. I went over the patch notes, and it doesn't say anything about that.

Now, in pug matches, it's a roll of the dice if your team gets ECM or not. No one device, mounted on one mech, should be that important to getting a win.

[BoomDog]

Just got out of a match with a premade with 4 stealth atlases. Gee, that was fun.

[batesman]

All,

Thanks again for the participation, but a gentle reminder that I would like for us to steer clear of devolving into discussions of "Is ECM balanced - yes vs no" or "The table top does it this way and you don't know what you're saying".

Let's stay focused on providing a solution to the devs. This is one of the few posts that I've seen where solutioning is maximized and more philosophical discussion are minimized.

Much appreciated!

[Clay Pigeon]

I'd prefer if they removed the null signature system effects from ECM, and put the null signature system in as a separate upgrade or item.

ECM in its current form makes it so there will never be a need or use for the null sig system.

[Tesunie]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

*rolls eyes*

Why I even try to use reason with people.

FINE.

ECM is horribly overpowered wah wah wah. I guess my Unit is just that much better than everyone else then (damn we must have joined BWC!) since we defeated multi-ECM at every turn last night.

Must suck to be one of the unwashed masses.


Who gives a ***** about the other MW titles? This is not THEM. They were done far from the source mateial, and the goal here is to emulate TT as close as possible. The sooner you stop worrying about what MW4 did, the sooner you might actually enjoy THIS game.

Count on a Steiner to say something like that. Us Davion are much nicer. (Yes, I'm joking.)

Joking aside, I think it's you who aren't listening. Most of us are saying we do like ECM. We really like it. But, like anything else, there should be something to lesen the impact of it in the game. It shouldn't be a dead stop to all LRMs and SSRMs. It should hinder and make it harder for missile lock ons. Not impossible.

Personally, I haven't felt the impact of ECM yet. I've been running with an AC as of late. But when I was in my trainer, I was using the Hunchback 4j as a support role while I learned the game. My first mech was a Hunchback 4SP, and I mimicked the 4j because it was effective and kepts me alive for the most part, adding in more heat sinks on my custom to make it able to fight closer as needed.

With the intoduction of ECM in it's current state, I've already removed the LRMs from my Hunchback and added SRMs, already seeing the problem of trying to get a lock on anything. It was hard enough before ECM to get and keep a lock on a target till the missiles hit. Not I can see it's going to be near impossible. Is this bad? Not really. But something should help to cut down ECM at the same time. ECM I don't feel is overpowered, if it had something to soften and, at least in part, counter it's effects. Though, to be honest, it shouldn't stop lock ons completely, but make lock ons harder to get, and knock out the extra guidance systems of the mech. It also should remove target sharing, which it does.

Personally, I like how it's running. But having ECM being the only counter to ECM is not how it should be in lore, books, TT or any of the previous games around. And I know, this isn't the other mechwarrior games. We know that. We simply are refering to a similar game that we already know as a way to bring about a comparison. It's like saying differences between a Hummer and a Bug. They are each cars. They each have engines. They aren't the same, but similar enough that we can make some comparisons. If one suddenly had square wheels, where all the other cars don't, we could be asking why it has square wheels and point out the fact that other, similar items, have round wheels. (Just as an example.)

I think the complaint isn't about ECM and how it works, but in how strongly and well it works and what ways besides a complete change of every mech deisgn being used. LRMs should not be useless. It should be hindered. (I know, you can manuelly fire them, but it's no where near easy. Almost impossible.) SSRMs are the bigger problem. You can't even fire them with ECM on the field. I know a pure SSRM build should be considered a poor build to start with, but it shouldn't be killed either. The SSRMs should be able to get a lock after a much longer time, and/or should be able to be fired blind like normal SRMs. It would make them from useless to just greatly reduced.

As for ECM letting you get a lock on if you get really close... as I said, I have lately been running with an AC 20. I don't care about getting a lock most times, though it is helpful. When fighting someone with ECM, I find I can't lock on them at all, no matter how close I seem to get. I can ram them and still not get that lock on.

Also, for all those "NARC was made to counter ECM", no. It wasn't. ECM was actually made to counter NARC and make it harder to lock onto. But it shouldn't make it impossible to lock on to as well. As of right now, ECM, though good and fair, is unbalanced. I don't feel ECM needs to necicarily be changed, though maybe a little, it needs to have some counters placed into the game to reduce it's effectiveness. Just like how it shouldn't remove LRMs and SSRMs, but instead should reduce thier effectiveness somehow. Right now, it's removing them completely. I'm not the only LRM pilot that's changed to SRMs or all lasers. (Though I haven't been running with LRMs for a while now, but still, I've changed my one LRM mech into SRMs to counter the ECM already. I shouldn't really have to feel the need to do that really. I do also agree that LRMs and particularly SSRMs where overpowered, but making them from overpowered to dead isn't an answer either. Greatly reducing their abilities around ECM would be better.)

Also, am I the only person who thinks that LRMs launched at close range, if they hit a mech, should do some rocking effects and minimal damge? I know the warheads aren't arming, but the rocket is still driving itself into the mech. They mentioned several times in the books of LRMs being used in extream close range as a last ditch effort to mess up an opponent's targeting skills. I think it was in Highlanders Gambit that this trick was used specifically. Also maybe in some of the many Soloris books as well...

Back on topic, I still feel that BAP should do more than it currently does. I'm not suggesting BAP to completely counter ECM, but it should help cut through the clutter a little. Even a small percent would be nice. Or have it detect the ECM and it's jamming before you really get jammed, kinda like as a proximity alert to an ECM field...? Right now, I see no need to ever field a BAP.