186 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

If Pygar has 6 fingers on his right hand...

[Jetfire]

Bluten, on 20 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Funny how you talk to be against one thing completely countering another while at the same time defending the ECM, a device that does exactly that vs the BAP. I should add that full counters, being from either the ECM or BAP, was never anything I suggested or supported. I never said make the BAP render an ECM pointless, I said make it do SOMETHING, as opposed to NOTHING.

If ECM counters ECM... you need to at least consider running ECM in your mech or your party so E-Warfare is relevant

If BAP counters ECM... no more ECM ever for any reason as BAP will be a defacto inclusion removing E-warfare

ECM workarounds are in place with more coming. BAP only makes sense if it is linked with a pilot skill as that would add a layer of trade off. E-warfare is a delicate thing and it may seem OP now, but too many work arounds even and it becomes irrelevant. The whole argument seems to be BAP should offset ECM, but any relevant offset will be nearly a full counter as ECM really doesn't protect you that much.

Currently it is necessary equipment in a team for at least 3-4 members unless you specifically built TAG and Ballistic/Energy heavy teams with good scouts, too many ECM's and you start to limit your tactical options. Sure teams run full 8 man ECM drops, but they mostly do it to take advantage of how reliant we have become on radar, not that we can't simply look for mechs as heat signatures are pretty easy to see.

Also to the original point BAP is highly useful in getting faster locks and targeting shut down mechs. That is why I run it in addition to things like tag on various mechs. During ECM wars you may not get too many large windows to get locks as people counter each other, so BAP helps there quite a bit.

Edited by Jetfire, 20 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Codejack]

Jetfire, on 20 December 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Bluten, on 20 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I never said make the BAP render an ECM pointless, I said make it do SOMETHING, as opposed to NOTHING.

If BAP counters ECM... no more ECM ever for any reason as BAP will be a defacto inclusion removing E-warfare

/shrug

Edited by Codejack, 20 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Jetfire]

Codejack, on 20 December 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

/shrug

That is fine, but suppose we just go ahead and remove everything ever called OP in this game... I guess we would be left with just another FPS with no variety or complexity. Wolfenstein 3D anyone?

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Codejack, on 20 December 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

/shrug

You do this so much better than I do, lol. 1 quote, 1 word, and points made perfectly clear.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Jetfire, on 20 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

That is fine, but suppose we just go ahead and remove everything ever called OP in this game... I guess we would be left with just another FPS with no variety or complexity. Wolfenstein 3D anyone?

When did I ever suggest or state to remove the ECM in this thread? I'd love for it to stay in the game, but as a balanced device. It doesn't need to be shamelessly OP to exist or do its job as it currently is. But you keep on defending OP devices and ignoring UP/useless ones. We just have to hope Piranha doesn't listen to it.(But then again, if they weren't, then they wouldn't have put this in like this in the first place)

[Jetfire]

Bluten, on 20 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

When did I ever suggest or state to remove the ECM in this thread? I'd love for it to stay in the game, but as a balanced device. It doesn't need to be shamelessly OP to exist or do its job as it currently is. But you keep on defending OP devices and ignoring UP/useless ones. We just have to hope Piranha doesn't listen to it.(But then again, if they weren't, then they wouldn't have put this in like this in the first place)

I was responding to CodeJack's /shrug at my suggestion that BAP fully countering ECM would basically leave ECM in the dust bin. I responded to you directly as well in a pretty thorough post. BAP has functions, ECM has functions. BAP is only UP in the sense that it doesn't work in the presence of ECM, but then neither do the other things ECM counters.

In what way could we buff the BAP that isn't so strong that it lets us simply play around ECM entirely? Even adding a pilot skill to let the BAP help you acquire locks is risky, but at least it will have a solid trade off. ECM is only OP in that we are not used to dealing with it and we don't have all the intended work arounds yet. A straight up buff to the BAP could seriously eliminate E-warfare as we cannot buff ECM from here, it already does everything we could expect from 3 E-warfare packages all in one.

I am saying ECM is already at its peak, we should add workarounds 1 by 1 until it is seeing play often but not regularly in all 8 mechs in teams. It already regularly makes up about 4 mechs out of most team games, all 8 is not the norm really. Once it is the norm to see 2-3 mechs in 8 man teams with ECM I think it will be pretty balanced. Then we can consider splitting it into multiple modules OR what makes even more sense is make the 3 ECM systems pilot skills so you would need to use module slots to get the current implementation.

[Codejack]

Jetfire, on 20 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

That is fine, but suppose we just go ahead and remove everything ever called OP in this game... I guess we would be left with just another FPS with no variety or complexity. Wolfenstein 3D anyone?

Obviously the system would have to be balanced; the problem right now is that they are intentionally marginalizing an entire weapon system.

ECM was aimed at streaks; sure, it hit LRMs, too, but they've tried to fix that with the TAG change. Not only was ECM never supposed to affect streaks (yea, yea, except Angel, but this isn't Angel!), streaks were never supposed to require lock-on to begin with. Add in the fact that they implemented each tier of each weapon type EXCEPT streaks...

The subtext here is that streaks are gone from any mech that can carry more than 3 of them. I WOULD HAVE HAD A LOT MORE RESPECT FOR PGI IF THEY HAD JUST COME OUT AND SAID THIS.

[Codejack]

Jetfire, on 20 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

In what way could we buff the BAP that isn't so strong that it lets us simply play around ECM entirely?

BAP vs ECM detects at 300-400m, lock-on time intermediate between normal and ECM-impeded, allow lock-on for BAP-equipped mech within the bubble; still no target sharing from within the bubble, HUD disrupted, etc.

[Jetfire]

Codejack, on 20 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

BAP vs ECM detects at 300-400m, lock-on time intermediate between normal and ECM-impeded, allow lock-on for BAP-equipped mech within the bubble; still no target sharing from within the bubble, HUD disrupted, etc.

So you want streak boats back badly, I get it... and you want them to not require even so much as a lock on if I read your previous post right. I can just picture playing that game and I am glad the world ends tomorrow morning so it won't haunt me long.

[4er3BaPa]

BAP can detect power-off mech in 200m radius, make buff for BAP vs. ECM like this:

BAP can targeting mech with ECM (in Disrupt mode) in 200 m radius but double of time (only for this mech, other teammates cant get BAP targeting buff).
ECM can triple targetig time for mech with BAP, switched to Counter mode.
Balanced?

Buff BAP not remove E-warfare in this position, this buff personell and limited anti-ECM stuff.

Otherwise, ECM - unbalanced "push-to-win" ability vs. configs without other ECM installed (except TAG, but not all variants have laser-slot for it). You cry about StreaCats? You win, rockets die.

Edited by 4er3BaPa, 20 December 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

He still thinks I want to turn the broken scale around rather than even it out. I'm not suggesting to just turn the chart upside down then say "fixed". I'm suggesting to make both devices viable and useful, which is currently not the case due to faulty game design. Currently the ECM is 100x more valuable than the BAP, since the BAP barely does anything even when there isn't an ECM around, and then does nothing at all when there is. The ECM doesn't have any such problem and causes entire weapon systems to cease functioning. It's only weakness at all is another ECM, which can then counter it.(When logically the BAP should be the best ECM counter, not another ECM) Keep in mind that even if the BAP got a much needed buff, it'd still only affect the 1 guy using it. It wouldn't bubble nearby allies nor would reduce the ECM's effectiveness vs those allies. It also wouldn't completely negate the ECM either, unlike how the ECM currently does vs BAP. These 2 devices should reduce the effectiveness of each other, not one render the second useless as is currently the case.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Jetfire, on 20 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

So you want streak boats back badly, I get it... and you want them to not require even so much as a lock on if I read your previous post right. I can just picture playing that game and I am glad the world ends tomorrow morning so it won't haunt me long.

Even if Streaks were able to lock at their normal ranges, you'd still be delaying that lock timer, which is a big problem for a Streak stacker. They could also make the ECM user take reduced missile damage or nerf the Streaks directly. They didn't need to entirely prevent locks except for in a very tight and unfairly small range window.(180-200) Streaks were OP pre-ECM, I said that myself pre-ECM, but this wasn't a logical way to go about nerfing them. The ECM should be a smaller piece in a larger picture when it comes to factoring in vs Streaks. Instead they were made to be the entire picture. If you don't have one, Streaks hurt just as much as they did before. If you do have one, then they're useless unless the enemy "also" has one to cancel yours. See the problem now? It's all about this ECM. ECM or no ECM. They should have been balanced(nerfed) on their own. Then the ECM wouldn't have needed to affect them so much. Then it wouldn't be the only factor in whether they are OP or trash. You should seek middle grounds, not highs and lows on a scale.

Edited by Bluten, 20 December 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[Brilig]

Personally I like the way ECM works. However it would be nice if it didn't render BAP useless. BAP doesn't need to be a direct counter but it would be nice if it was able to cut through some of the affects of ECM. Be able to detect and ECM mechs under ECM at a slightly longer range. Counter a little bit of the delayed lock on and information gathering times.

Or if you want to try something different let it show the ECM bubble on the mini map. Not what is in the ECM bubble, but at least where it's at. Or maybe once you close within a few hundred meters of the ECM mech BAP will highlight it on your hud as the source of ECM. You still have all the lock on and target penalties but it shows you who is running the ECM.

[MercilessTRADER]

Totally agree here, we need soft counters to ECM what ever they may be.

[Gristle]

Useless biased poll.

[Dayuhan]

Since the Beagle Active Probe is supposed to be the premier sensor suite (at least until the Angel Suite comes out) I think it should work as it states in the TRO. It will detect any 'mech within its radius regardless of where that 'mech is in regards to the 'mech carrying the Beagle Proble. In essence the Beagle Probe should detect any 'mech in a 360 degree arc that is within LOS.

I do not have an issue with the BAP being jammed by ECM, that is what ECM was designed for.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Gristle, on 21 December 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Useless biased poll.

Useless meaningless post? Thanks for the bump, though.

[mekabuser]

bap should have a toggle for a seperate function like ecm does..
Primary function increases basic radar range and decreases lock on time.

Secondary function.
active radar mode should act like an active sonar ping. Hell , it could use the same ecm ring visual we see now, maybe change the color. What it would do is send out a ping in a 360 degree circle lighting up momentarily every enemy mech within say 350 yards. It would also light YOU up to enemy radar.

<uses> when you see that low signal of approaching ecm enemy mech , hit active ping to light him up so you know where they are coming from .
perhaps even have target sharing info with friendlies within a certain radius. Maybe have them receive the data for half the time you do?

[PropagandaWar]

Heck even blips to show the target info. Doesn't have to be long enough to lock.