164 replies to this topic

[Fajther]

But what can we do about it? The devs certainly not boing to put it in it's place because it would mean streak cats again.

[TopperHarley]

just saying the game was waaaay better before they brought out ecm.
every game looks the same now and you could switch the winconditions to: kill all enemy ecm
just highlight the code for ecm and delete it...

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Deadxero, on 11 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

No it's not, it's a counter to dedicated LRM boats.

LRM boats are countered by hills. (See the "Hills are OP" thread). The nice thing about hills, is that they exist on the map, and you don't have to hope that someone else on your team will bring one.

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And it as well can be countered either by a friendly ECM boat or Tag/NARC.

Well yes and no. The targeting effects for a single enemy can be negated by tag if your team is outside of the ecm bubble. If you're inside the bubble, you're screwed if you don't have an ECM mech of your own, or if you do, but the enemy has at least 2 more than you do. In pug matches, it's very often the case that this happens, and "well just equip ECM yourself" is not a feasible solution as it would limit players only a few variants.

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I won't argue that ECM isn't powerful, because it is. Your argument is a bit ridiculous. Your point is that it won't let you sit halfway across the map and rain down 1k damage a game without ever getting into range of the enemy.

Again, hills... I've played plenty of short range builds (even back during the CB), and even in matches without ECM, I somehow manage to avoid being completely torn apart by LRMs.

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ECM forces you to either bring a Tag, and actually pilot your mech to use it, or coordinate with your team in order to work around it.

Right, coordinate with a team that you won't meet until you're in match, that you can only communicate with via chat, and whose positions you'll immediately lose if Raven gets too close.

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ECM encourages diversity,

By ensuring that every variant which can have ECM automatically does, effectively eliminating the long range game, and forcing anyone who wants to do any sort of fire support to carry tag and artemis.

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in that maybe you have to put some lasers on your LRM cheese-boat and not hide behind a mountain,

Or rather one laser, because the C4 only has two slots, one of which apparently has to be tag.

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and/or teamwork.

Which ECM nerfs quite nicely if you don't have comms.

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Most would argue that this is a good thing.

And yet they seem not to be.

[wwiiogre]

The Current problem with ECM is that it is not what Battletech ECM was, it is what a system called null sig was in battle tech and that is out of current timeline.

ECM for table top has three modes, ECM, Counter ECM, Ghost Targeting(which in MWO is currently cannot lock); In table top you had to set to one of these three options, in MWO you have two options NULL Sig and ECM (which stops narc/artemis).

So as ECM stands in MWO it is not what the lore says it is. In table top, ghost targeting makes it harder to lock on, not impossible and BAP and Command Console both effect Ghost Targeting.

A possible way to bring MWO ECM away from Null Sig and back into line with Table Top lore but also make it more fun and more tactical is to give it three settings. ECM which means stopping Narc/Artemis, Ghost Targeting which should make it take longer to lock on I would say 5 seconds to lock, with BAP reducing that to 4 seconds and Command Console reducing it to 3 seconds and yes they stack for a reduction to two seconds to lock ontop of the current time to lock requirements.

So you no longer have null sig, you have three settings instead of two. BAP and Command Console now actually counter ECM like they do in the lore/fiction/table top rules.

AMS should also shoot down upto half of every missile flight shot at it, including ssrm. But can only cycle every second. So multiple flights will get past it, dual AMS would have a purpose and less ssrm2 damage gets thru.

This is the fix that would work at the current moment to make ECM less powerful but still useful and even more tactical.

The second thing that would prevent missile boats from being so powerful, would be to actually go back to the table top random hit location for missiles and the amount of how many hit in a flight. With terrain, enemy/friendly mechs stepping into flight getting hit. This prevents the alpha striking ssrm boats or even the alpha striking lrm boats or ssrm boats from being able to always manage to core torso, when missile flights can now hit legs, arms and even head, but broken down into single missiles with a head shot being about a 3% per missile.

What does this do, it makes missile fights take longer and makes them no longer an easy button for the win. It more closely resembles Table top while still maintaining the fps feel with all direct fire weapons, note missiles are not direct fire, they are pointed and then they do their own thing and were never meant to all hit in same or near the same locations because that breaks the balance of the game.

The same thing is true for ECM, it was never meant to make it impossible to be hit, just harder to lock on to and it was never meant to get an extra ability for free but instead have three settings so the user had to choose which was more important, stopping narc/artemis; countering enemy ecm; or making it hard to hit self and anyone within 180 meters, note ghost targeting was a skill and was based on pilots experience not supposed to be automatic so should be governed by pilot skill tree and modules with boosts to how long it takes to lock on etc.

So sorry for wall of text but there is decades of game experience both table top and all MW titles and Mech Commander titles. It fits in the timeline, gives more tactical situations to deal within the game and also makes BAP/Command Console more useful and gives new modules to buy and pilot experience skills to purchase.

Just saying, current ECM is broke and OP based on what it is supposed to be in Battle Tech.

Chris

[Alvor]

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should always work if using Canon BT/MW.

Number of (regular) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. On average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo.

All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2 1 1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6
3 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
4 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 9
5 1 2 2 3 3 5 6 8 9 12
6 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
7 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
8 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 9 12
9 2 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
10 2 3 3 4 5 7 8 10 12 16
[u]11[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
[u]12[/u] 2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20