153 replies to this topic

[Undead Bane]

Hello everyone!

Lately I was very frustrated by performance of my builds, that have high one-shot damage output (like, say 2xPPC+AC20 or dual AC20). The problem is, I could not kill mechs with one nicely placed shot in the head anymore, or could not kill lights even if I did hit them with full volley in one burst.
I could not understand if I started to suck so much in sniping, or it is something with game mechanics now. Damage got spread all the time, not going into the location I hit.
So, I collected data and asked support, if it is a bug or some kind of anti-one-shot protection mechanics.
It turned out, that there actually IS such mechanics, though even the GM I was speaking with did not know about its existence at first.

Here is my initial request letter:

Spoiler

Quote

Hello! Here are situations of strange AC20 behavior. Can you please
specify, if it is bug or a feature? If latter, then when will it be
announced?

situation 1: I have an almost undamaged Cicada in front of me (enemy one).
I shoot it with 2 AC20 in the face, hoping to get CT. It happend so, that
it was my only shot in the game (we got outcapped a second later in a PUG),
so watch the numbers and weirdness.

Instead of just dying (like it should from 40 damage), Cicada gets its head
stripped of armor, internals of the head become orange (not even red) and
all torso parts go from no to orange and from yellow to red.

Results table showed, that I did exactly 40 damage, but it got spread over
all the Head, CT and side torsos.

Situation 2: a Jenner with yellow armor runs. I shoot him with twin AC20
and hit CT. Instead of dying, his CT gets stripped off armor, goes orange
(wut?), other parts start flashing too.
I know that player (he was from DHB, actually, just PUGgin in opposing
team), so I know he does not have 40+ armor on the Jenner CT, that was
already damaged to yellow. In fact, I'm not even sure, that Jenner can have
that much armor + internals. But damage got spread out.

Situation 3: Completely undamaged catapult C1. Enemy. Noone but me around.
I shoot his CT, score a hit and then, suddenly, I see his CT and both side
torsos getting bright orange armor. But I did hit CT. Ok, even if one slug
went to CT, one to side torso, there should be two locations damaged. But
he got three damaged. So, the damage got spread again.

And overally, I noticed, that dual AC20 became close to unplayable lately
due to strangely low concentrated damage output.

So, what is it? A bug, or some "anti-one-shot-kill-protection" feature? If
later - this sucks. Because quite a few Assaults actually CAN hold twin
AC20s.

Oh, and yes, that all is since last patch.

And here is a quote from the latest response letter:

Quote

Dec 05 08:31 (PST)

Hello *******,
My QA team has cleared things up for me a bit. There was a change to the ballistic rounds handling to prevent many of the one-shot-kills that players were experiencing (and being frustrated by). The point of impact for many of these weapons has been increased, close range can further increase this diameter so the damage from your rounds was being spread correctly.
Seems we both learned something today!

Regards,
*****
GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

So, this means, that big shell's damage is implicitly spread across multiple locations.
What I would like to know is your attitude towards such mechanics.

I will hide mine under the spoiler tag not to poison the thread.

Spoiler

My attitude is HIGHLY negative. Because:

• It favors lightly armored fast moving targets. Again.
  
• If favor lasers. Again. As lasers have explicit (and visible) DoT and convergence problems, and projectiles now have higher convergence problems PLUS implicit (=unpredictable by player) damage spread.
  
• It makes extremely hard to make glass canons - you just cannot one shot anything, no matter how much speed and armor you sacrifice.
  
• It severely limits effectiveness of several mech' variants.

Instead of doing it this way, IMO, ACs should be implemented as burst-fire ACs, so they would have explicit spread, not some weird implicit one.

Also, this was not intended to be a QQ thread. I, personally, do not QQ, I just really want to find out community's opinion on this. Basically, what is more frustrating: being one shot, or being unable to one shot somebody?

UPD:
Valuable info:

Narnia, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

• Gave the "bullets" used for the autocannons, gauss rifle, and PPCs a 0.25 m collision radius (it was previously 0, a single point)

From the patch notes received on July 12th.

However, the point is, that in last patch that was, most likely, heavily tweaked, which resulted in damage being spread all over the mech for, say AC20s, if the mech is as small as, say, Jenner. Not a 0.25m radius, seems much much bigger.


IMPORTANT UPDATE
As I see lots of questions regarding how exactly it was tested, I will post COMPLETE letter history here, that contains my mech's loadout, conditions, under which shots were fired and so on - all the data, required to reproduce.
So, here it goes, under the spoiler:

Spoiler

Undead Bane
Dec 05 10:06 (PST)

Hi *****!

Thank you for clarification. I suspected such protection existence in my first letter
My last question regarding the issue is the following: may this be announced publicly with reference to these letters, or it is still a subject to test/change, so it should not? Because many of my fellow players were frustrated by performance of AC20s and PPCs at close range, but did not know the reason.

Best regards,
********** "aka" Undead Bane"

PS
Sorry for the almost empty letter, pressed "send" accidentally


***** (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 05 08:31 (PST)


Hello **********,

My QA team has cleared things up for me a bit. There was a change to the ballistic rounds handling to prevent many of the one-shot-kills that players were experiencing (and being frustrated by). The point of impact for many of these weapons has been increased, close range can further increase this diameter so the damage from your rounds was being spread correctly.

Seems we both learned something today!

Regards,
*****
GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

***** (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 04 07:21 (PST)

Hello **********,

Thanks for that info! I'll get this back to testing.

Regards,
*****
GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

**********
Dec 03 15:45 (PST)

Sorry, forgot the mech name: Catapult K2

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ********** <lol4ever@list.ru>
Date: 2012/12/4
Subject: Re: [MechWarrior® Online™] Re: Strange behavior of dual AC20
(ticket #57238)
To: MechWarrior® Online™ <support@mwomercs.com>


Hello!

Here is the loadout:

Upgrades: Endo steel, double heatsinks
Head: Empty
CT: STD Engine 200, 2xAC20 Ammo
LT: AC20
RT: AC20
LH: Small laser, Double heatsink
RH: Small laser, Double heatsink, AC20 Ammo
LL: 2xAC20 Ammo
RL: 2xAC20 Ammo

Armor:
Head: 18
CT: 62
LT: 44
RT: 44
LH: 40
RH: 40
LL: 41
RL: 41

Weapon grouping:
Group 2: 2xSL
Group 3: 2xAC20
No chain fire.

Shots were fired as following (all of them were fired while I was not
moving):
at CDA: he was standing in front of me at ~50M still, facing me (looking
from cockpit to cockpit). Shot with 2xAC20 was made right when crosshairs
came over cockpit.
at Jenner-D: jenner was running at ~300M from right to left after jumping.
Oh, and that was Jenner of a player with nickname ***** (DHB member), he
has streak ammo in legs, not in torsos.
at C1: C1 was standing facing left at ~250M.

Maybe it was some kind of explosion, but here is the problem: from taking
2xAC20 in the face CDA should get more damage, than just orange internals
in the head, from taking 2xAC20 to CT jenner should die or get red CT (D
variant can have 44CT armor max, and that one was already damaged to yellow
=> he had around 30 left). Maybe convergence? But then, why more than 2
location got damaged?..

Thank you for the feedback!

Best regards,
********** "aka" Undead Bane

PS
I should have not typed in the name here in cyrilic letters ☺


2012/12/4 ***** <notifications-support@mwomercs.com>

**********
Dec 03 15:44 (PST)

Hello!

Here is the loadout:

Upgrades: Endo steel, double heatsinks
Head: Empty
CT: STD Engine 200, 2xAC20 Ammo
LT: AC20
RT: AC20
LH: Small laser, Double heatsink
RH: Small laser, Double heatsink, AC20 Ammo
LL: 2xAC20 Ammo
RL: 2xAC20 Ammo

Armor:
Head: 18
CT: 62
LT: 44
RT: 44
LH: 40
RH: 40
LL: 41
RL: 41

Weapon grouping:
Group 2: 2xSL
Group 3: 2xAC20
No chain fire.

Shots were fired as following (all of them were fired while I was not
moving):
at CDA: he was standing in front of me at ~50M still, facing me (looking
from cockpit to cockpit). Shot with 2xAC20 was made right when crosshairs
came over cockpit.
at Jenner-D: jenner was running at ~300M from right to left after jumping.
Oh, and that was Jenner of a player with nickname Kitara (DHB member), he
has streak ammo in legs, not in torsos.
at C1: C1 was standing facing left at ~250M.

Maybe it was some kind of explosion, but here is the problem: from taking
2xAC20 in the face CDA should get more damage, than just orange internals
in the head, from taking 2xAC20 to CT jenner should die or get red CT (D
variant can have 44CT armor max, and that one was already damaged to yellow
=> he had around 30 left). Maybe convergence? But then, why more than 2
location got damaged?..

Thank you for the feedback!

Best regards,
********** "aka" Undead Bane

PS
I should have not typed in the name here in cyrilic letters ☺

***** (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 03 14:25 (PST)


Hello **********,

We're doing some tests and believe this may be due to your shot hitting ammunition and causing an ammo explosion.

Quick question...which model and variant of mech are you piloting? We want to recreate this as closely as possible.


Regards,
*****
GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

***** (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 03 08:20 (PST)

Hello **********,

The issue you submitted has been added to our database and forwarded to the development team so they are aware of it and to test.

This ticket is now considered to be closed, you can reply to this mail if you have pertinent information to add. Your issue may be fixed soon! Please be sure to regularly read the change log.


Regards,
*****
GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

**********
Dec 01 19:53 (PST)

Hello! Here are situations of strange AC20 behavior. Can you please
specify, if it is bug or a feature? If latter, then when will it be
announced?

situation 1: I have an almost undamaged Cicada in front of me (enemy one).
I shoot it with 2 AC20 in the face, hoping to get CT. It happend so, that
it was my only shot in the game (we got outcapped a second later in a PUG),
so watch the numbers and weirdness.

Instead of just dying (like it should from 40 damage), Cicada gets its head
stripped of armor, internals of the head become orange (not even red) and
all torso parts go from no to orange and from yellow to red.

Results table showed, that I did exactly 40 damage, but it got spread over
all the Head, CT and side torsos.

Situation 2: a Jenner with yellow armor runs. I shoot him with twin AC20
and hit CT. Instead of dying, his CT gets stripped off armor, goes orange
(wut?), other parts start flashing too.
I know that player (he was from DHB, actually, just PUGgin in opposing
team), so I know he does not have 40+ armor on the Jenner CT, that was
already damaged to yellow. In fact, I'm not even sure, that Jenner can have
that much armor + internals. But damage got spread out.

Situation 3: Completely undamaged catapult C1. Enemy. Noone but me around.
I shoot his CT, score a hit and then, suddenly, I see his CT and both side
torsos getting bright orange armor. But I did hit CT. Ok, even if one slug
went to CT, one to side torso, there should be two locations damaged. But
he got three damaged. So, the damage got spread again.

And overally, I noticed, that dual AC20 became close to unplayable lately
due to strangely low concentrated damage output.

So, what is it? A bug, or some "anti-one-shot-kill-protection" feature? If
later - this sucks. Because quite a few Assaults actually CAN hold twin
AC20s.

Oh, and yes, that all is since last patch.

Best regards,
********** "aka" Undead Bane

Edited by Undead Bane, 06 December 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[Urza Mechwalker]

Doing that would be a GIANT facepalm. The spread damage is supposed to be an LBX thing.

[Felix]

an AC 20 to the chest/leg what have you should snap it in a light

So I voted no.

But who can be surprised really? PGI is showing just how badly they are at running things

[J4ckInthebox]

WHY THE **** THAT GAME-CHANGING TWEAK WAS NOT IN THE ******** PATCHNOTE !

[Jace11]

Please tell me this isn't true...

What is the point is aiming, or being able to aim? What is point I'm large calibre weapons? Also, how, if it is true, did they sneak this in without telling us? What does that say about how they treat us, what information we deserve to know and what they do, if they perceive its a change we might not like?

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

The point of impact for many of these weapons has been increased, close range can further increase this diameter so the damage from your rounds was being spread correctly.

If what I read is true, They are not understanding the concept of "Point of Impact".

Quote

There was a change to the ballistic rounds handling to prevent many of the one-shot-kills that players were experiencing (and being frustrated by).

Of course it will be frustrating to be one shot killed, but we are pretending to be cold blooded killers, trained professional Soldiers. I was told on multiple occasions our life expectancy was 2.4 seconds in a real fire fight. People shouldn't play at war if they aren't able to handle the mortality rate!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 December 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[Apoc1138]

oh dear... I did wonder why my PPC build was being so much less effective last night
this needs un-F-ing

[J4ckInthebox]

by the way, it is supposed to be armor-piercing rounds, so spread damage makes no sense.

[MustrumRidcully]

Wait, what? Auto-Cannons now spread their damage?

Isn't that the thing we all thought wasn't even possible, so that any reports of PPC damage spreading must be an error with the damage indicator?


If they want weapon spread, give us a cone of fire. If they don't want cone of fire, give us pinpoint damage.


And if you worry about head shots? Let head shots no longer destroy a mech, just disable the HUD.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2012 - 04:53 AM.

[Sorter]

You guys actually play the game? Im a gauss / uac5 sniper and I cored loads of mech's tonight, and dearmed even more of them, Nothing spreads on other parts of the mech. Also i was cored couple times too with quad ac2 while powered down, while my side torsoes were still yellow. I understand that forums got their own law's and every bit of "non official info" is taken for a 100% confirmed game breaker, but cmon ... less qq more pew pew tbh.

[Jace11]

It's a software company playing with balancing. Trying new stuff, not knowing really what to do, who to please. Seen it before, they will repeatedly nerf and buff things and then make left field changes like this. Though, sneaking things,like this through is a new low... They could guess the hardcore response to something so lame like this, so they decided not to tell you...

[Undead Bane]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Wait, what? Auto-Cannons now spread their damage?

Isn't that the thing we all thought wasn't even possible, so that any reports of PPC damage spreading must be an error with the damage indicator?


If they want weapon spread, give us a cone of fire. If they don't want cone of fire, give us pinpoint damage.

Yep. And it turned out that was REALLY damage being spread across the mech.

[Thorn Hallis]

Is this allready live?

[Dr Killinger]

...what?

I can see the reasoning of reducing the chances of being one shotted, but this seems frustrating, especially since I run 2 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle. I'll have to play more to draw a conclusion.

[Undead Bane]

Sorter, on 06 December 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

You guys actually play the game? Im a gauss / uac5 sniper and I cored loads of mech's tonight, and dearmed even more of them, Nothing spreads on other parts of the mech. Also i was cored couple times too with quad ac2 while powered down, while my side torsoes were still yellow. I understand that forums got their own law's and every bit of "non official info" is taken for a 100% confirmed game breaker, but cmon ... less qq more pew pew tbh.

This affects large high burst damage projectiles in the first place. Meaning AC20, AC10, PPCs. I, personally, experienced this A LOT with dual AC20. Don't know, by the way, if Gauss is affected.
I did not notice anything like it with UAC5/AC5 or AC2, their projectile is small. So sorry, your experience is unrelated.

And no, this was not intended to be a QQ "OMGNERFTHATBUFFTHISSSS" thread. I really want to find out the opinion.

Edited by Undead Bane, 06 December 2012 - 04:56 AM.

[J4ckInthebox]

I would very much like an official answer in that matter.

I don't really care about the tweak in itself, I am a very poor shot (I am more more the spray and pray type )

But sneak nerfs behind our backs like that? That is low. Very, very low.

Edited by J4ckInthebox, 06 December 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Doc, I don't see the reason for screwing with one shots. It's combat. in combat people die, sometimes they die in a blink of an eye. Not everyone can master one shot killing but those who can deserve their moment of glory.

[Redshift2k5]

They want fewer headshots in the game.

Deal with it.

[Undead Bane]

J4ckInthebox, on 06 December 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

I would very much like an official answer in that matter.

I don't really care about the tweak in itself, I am a very poor shot (I am more more the spray and pray type )

But sneak nerfs behind our backs like that? That is low. Very, very low.

Hm, and by "official" you mean what? Devs?
So far, I have a letter from Game Master, recieved from official address. IMO, it's official enough.

[Omigir]

has anybody stopped to see what kind of a spread that is being discussed here?