153 replies to this topic

[Deadoon]

If projectiles don't concentrate damage anymore, it is fitting considering the explosions they create.

[Dr Killinger]

Vagabond Nomad, on 06 December 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

I drive an Atlas, and that's never happened to me. I suppose if someone had the skill to hit my cockpit from all the way across the map, then they probably deserve the one-shot kill against me. I'd hope that such a feat would be difficult from that distance.

And if they DID accomplish that against me, I wouldn't be crying to PGI to spread the damage across my mech so it doesn't happen again. That pilot would have got me fair and square, and should be rewarded. Not punished because I'm being a big baby.

Undead Bane, on 06 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Hey, but that monster sacrificed a lot to get that tripple Gausses. He is a glass cannon, and can be easily killed by lights/mediums. So, IMO, he should have the ability to make one big hole with one shot for all the sacrifices he made.
However, if this is to be limited - let it be explicit limitation, similar to the one lasers have. Like, ACs shooting bursts of bullets, cfaset ones, but still bursts.

I never said I agreed with this decision, I just said I can see that they would not want this game to become a game based around one-shotting your opponents. I disagree that this is an acceptable way to achieve that, just want to say that I can see that they're afraid of that happening one day when they introduce some kind of assault with 4 ballistic slots or something, and that I hope that it never degrades into that.

But I reiterate, I'm not supporting this decision!

[Naitsirch]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 December 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Your average Assault Mech is roughly 16-17 Meters Tall, 4-6 Meters wide (Torso).

a .25 damage spread is a reasonable impact size for the weapons being used considering the relative size of the weapons/projectiles themselves.

It's also still possible to get a one shot kill, but you need to be dead center instead of almost. The cockpit bullseye is only .5 meters or so by itself.

The 0.25m came from a total different post and are not mentioned in the letter. The guy who came up with that related to a patch-note from july, whereas the OP relates to a letter from a GM addressing a different question, Until some official tells us this is the same topic (spread/0,25m) it has nothing to do with it.

Deadoon, on 06 December 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

If projectiles don't concentrate damage anymore, it is fitting considering the explosions they create.

Those are AP-rounds...

[Enigmos]

Looks at the crater in cement caused by the impact of a bullet. There is the center, but there is also the splat.

Besides: we wouldn't want the dakkadakka to just be d-., right? Didn't we all want MOAR dakkadakka?

[Shae Starfyre]

I am alright with AC20, PPC (ER PPC) and AC 10 having some spread.

AC20 and AC 10 (less so), and I do not think they are armor piercing due to the explosion, is a large caliber slug, and will have some collateral damage to other areas (but this should be small amounts to surrounding areas, like 15 points to Point of impact, and the other 5 spread - this is just an example).

PPC and ER PPC, differ slightly, but is range related, and refractive related, but should do something similiar as it hits the Point of Impact, it refracts, spreads a little due to compensation, angles, and disappation over long ranges.

The other AC weapons, as stated are too small of a shell to spread unless in the case of the AC5/uAC5 hits a small hitbox, there would be spread.

Also, from the perspective or realism (I know, flame on this), there is a good chance that you are never, ever, hitting the exact point of reference you think with 100% accuracy, and as such, could be hitting two Hit Boxes (in theory), even if by a tiny degree, such that this adds to the realism of the game.

That's my oppinion.

Edited by Aphoticus, 06 December 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't AutoCannons basically giant machine guns? If so, then it would make sense that damage is spread somewhat. If you have ever fired a fully automatic weapon, you know that all of the ordinance does not hit one spot.

PPC's and Gauss rifles, OTOH, SHOULD have their damage concentrated in one spot, as they fire a single projectile.

As long as everybody is playing by the same rules, and is AWARE of the rules, I am fine with it either way.

[Joseph Mallan]

Deadoon,

Quote

Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric.On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties.

Not an explosion but combustion. It is burning not exploding per se.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 December 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Soooo... you think they nerfed convergence on Gausscats/Splatapults? That isn't the same thing as nerfing autocannons individually; that's nerfing group-fired weapons.

Narnia, on 06 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

• Gave the "bullets" used for the autocannons, gauss rifle, and PPCs a 0.25 m collision radius (it was previously 0, a single point)

From the patch notes received on July 12th.

July 12th... so, a change that was in before most Founders entered Closed Beta is newsworthy how?

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

I wasn't a tester in July. I would have raged about this! AC rounds are Depleted Uranium Armor Piercing Rounds. AP does not spread damage! It concentrates it to breech armor. Hence the armor piercing designation.

So.... 120mm shells make 0.0000mm holes in armor?



What I'm getting from re-reading the OP, is that multiple projectiles fired from multiple cannons at the same time are not hitting the exact same point, not that a single projectile fired from a single cannon is spreading damage across multiple sections of a 'mech. Those are two very different things.

And it sounds like it's a convergence thing, which doesn't surprise me - at extremely close range, I'm used to seeing fire from individual weapons go high/right/left/low of my aimpoint, because the systems can't all converge that close; likewise, when leading a moving target, those weapons are set to converge at a point further out, so it's very likely the impact point won't be precisely the same.

But I don't see how any of that's newsworthy - unless the convergence mechanic wasn't affecting ballistic-armed K2s the same as other 'mech designs before, and now it is?

[Felix]

Vagabond Nomad, on 06 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I'm right there with you. That PGI would even consider doing this makes me wonder if any of them have ever even played MechWarrior before. I mean, seriously? If a light mech gets alpha striked by ballistics, it SHOULD be a one-shot kill. The lighter mech's advantage to avoid this is supposed to be its speed. If the pilot is just standing around or moving in a straight light, then learn how to drive your mech.

It's things like this, and the gimping of the UAC5, that really makes me wonder whether PGI knows what the heck it's doing.

It is abundantly obvious that the devs working on this game have no idea what they are doing.

Hotthedd, on 06 December 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't AutoCannons basically giant machine guns? If so, then it would make sense that damage is spread somewhat. If you have ever fired a fully automatic weapon, you know that all of the ordinance does not hit one spot.

PPC's and Gauss rifles, OTOH, SHOULD have their damage concentrated in one spot, as they fire a single projectile.

As long as everybody is playing by the same rules, and is AWARE of the rules, I am fine with it either way.

AC2 and AC5 are like machineguns, but an AC10 and 20 is closer to a main battle tank cannon

[Naitsirch]

OriginalTibs, on 06 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Looks at the crater in cement caused by the impact of a bullet. There is the center, but there is also the splat.

Besides: we wouldn't want the dakkadakka to just be d-., right? Didn't we all want MOAR dakkadakka?

The crater a bullet leaves is formed by the melting and or displacing of the armor and is only formed by non-penetrating hits. Look at modern AP-rounds - they look like darts. Also the debris seen on an impact in MWO is supposed to be the ablative armorplates going on vacation.

[Undead Bane]

Thontor, on 06 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I'm not going to vote in this poll because you add a "...because..." to the answers. How hard is it to make a poll a simple yes or no.... Maybe I would pick one, but I can't because I don't agree with the statement after the yes or no.

Removed that for you and everyone else.

[Naitsirch]

Hotthedd, on 06 December 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't AutoCannons basically giant machine guns? If so, then it would make sense that damage is spread somewhat. If you have ever fired a fully automatic weapon, you know that all of the ordinance does not hit one spot.

PPC's and Gauss rifles, OTOH, SHOULD have their damage concentrated in one spot, as they fire a single projectile.

As long as everybody is playing by the same rules, and is AWARE of the rules, I am fine with it either way.

machine gun: mostly chain-fed high rate of fire guns
autocannon: a cannon that reloads automatically, like modern tank guns on some tanks

[Bishop Steiner]

or you are facing better/ more balanced competition, as I have been headshotting mechs since Closed Beta, and continued my streak unabated the last 2 nights.

Lets make up more strawmen and boogeymen to blame PGI for.

Bring PROOF, not conjecture, then I'll listen.

[Undead Bane]

Solis Obscuri, on 06 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

What I'm getting from re-reading the OP, is that multiple projectiles fired from multiple cannons at the same time are not hitting the exact same point, not that a single projectile fired from a single cannon is spreading damage across multiple sections of a 'mech. Those are two very different things.

And it sounds like it's a convergence thing, which doesn't surprise me - at extremely close range, I'm used to seeing fire from individual weapons go high/right/left/low of my aimpoint, because the systems can't all converge that close; likewise, when leading a moving target, those weapons are set to converge at a point further out, so it's very likely the impact point won't be precisely the same.

But I don't see how any of that's newsworthy - unless the convergence mechanic wasn't affecting ballistic-armed K2s the same as other 'mech designs before, and now it is?

Let me correct you. That is not a convergence issue. If that was it, in the third example I had provided in the letter, C1 would have got 2 (two) locations damaged by two AC20 rounds. Instead, it got 3 (three) locations damaged, and the damage was less than 20 per location.
Moreover, at first GM suggested that could be ammo explosion, but it was proved not to be the case after tests.

I will also try to convince my unit to make some tests in 8-men drops for SINGLE AC20 with video. Because I experienced (and noticed) damage spread in this case too. But I only paid attention to it after I had problems with dual AC20.

Edited by Undead Bane, 06 December 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Naitsirch]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

or you are facing better/ more balanced competition, as I have been headshotting mechs since Closed Beta, and continued my streak unabated the last 2 nights.

Lets make up more strawmen and boogeymen to blame PGI for.

Bring PROOF, not conjecture, then I'll listen.

read the quoted letter before posting, you make yourself look incapable of reading

[Undead Bane]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

or you are facing better/ more balanced competition, as I have been headshotting mechs since Closed Beta, and continued my streak unabated the last 2 nights.

Lets make up more strawmen and boogeymen to blame PGI for.

Bring PROOF, not conjecture, then I'll listen.

1. Proof is in the post.
2. Did I BLAME anyone? No. Re-read the post. I posted a fact, proven by support and want to find out community opinion on it. So you are offending the wrong person.

[Texas Merc]

OK IF YOU HAVE BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME BALLISTICS HAVE SPREAD SINCE CLOSED BETA!!!

Nothing new nothing to see nothing has changed......

seriously.

[Joseph Mallan]

Solis Obscuri, on 06 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Soooo... you think they nerfed convergence on Gausscats/Splatapults? That isn't the same thing as nerfing autocannons individually; that's nerfing group-fired weapons.

July 12th... so, a change that was in before most Founders entered Closed Beta is newsworthy how?

So.... 120mm shells make 0.0000mm holes in armor?

I would like to point out that those pictures are both showing single round penetrations sir. The first picture is 4 through armor hits and one deflection(#2). Again reinforcing what I am saying, Concentrated damage.

[Naitsirch]

Texas Merc, on 06 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

OK IF YOU HAVE BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME BALLISTICS HAVE SPREAD SINCE CLOSED BETA!!!

Nothing new nothing to see nothing has changed......

seriously.

same as on page 2 where you posted the same non-argument: then it has been wrong since that point of time

[Onyx Rain]

Well this explains in part why my K/D has been dropping lately.... Did seem like shots that would have been head shots, or blown off a mech part were not doing what they should. I chalked it up to the netcode/hitbox issues....since I've shot guys in the feet just to see their CT light up.

But I guess they nerfed my guns and I missed it in the patch notes ;(

A slight spread, like .10m might be acceptable...but .25 seems a bit high.