142 replies to this topic

[Tilon]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

except that LRMs are NOT heat seeking missiles? (Though I do believe they re-introduce a version AFTER Operation Bulldog). Hence, if the missiles are not heat seekers (probably a good thing, considering how much heat EVERYBODY is putting off, you would probably have friendly fire hits more than enemy.

The Battlemech's computer is capable of distinguishing and locking targets using Vislight or Infrared sensors.

Tell me, what is it that ECM is jamming from 800 meters away that prevents what would otherwise be a lock?

Let me know, Mr. Logic. The missiles aren't using heat, the Battlemech uses Infrared sensors to pick out a target and lock onto it. Nothing an ECM does can jam that outside of the ECM's range.

[Zylo]

Icebound, on 06 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

I knew it wouldn't be long until people started doing this. PGI needs to make TAG toggle-able otherwise cheaters will find a way.

Many hardware devices easily allow macro functions.

Something as simple as the old G15 keyboard made a very easy un-jam macro for the UAC/5 back when there was manual un-jam. Many players used this in the past and even posted suggestions about changing the UAC/5 jamming to a timed system to prevent macro use.

Setting up a toggle for TAG is already very easy using hardware macro options.

Sorry, it's not cheating, it's called playing smart.

[Tilon]

If you have to set up a TAG macro and only use certain variants to make LRMs viable, it's a matter of time until ECM is nerfed. The fact that holding a laser on a target CONSTANTLY is the only counter to a 1.5 ton piece of equipment says it all.

Bring back direct LRM fire.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zylo, on 06 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Many hardware devices easily allow macro functions.

Something as simple as the old G15 keyboard made a very easy un-jam macro for the UAC/5 back when there was manual un-jam. Many players used this in the past and even posted suggestions about changing the UAC/5 jamming to a timed system to prevent macro use.

Setting up a toggle for TAG is already very easy using hardware macro options.

Sorry, it's not cheating, it's called playing smart.

Heck there has even been a post on how to do it, quick and easy for weeks on the Controls forum. If it bothered the Devs it would have been deleted LONG ago.

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

The Battlemech's computer is capable of distinguishing and locking targets using Vislight or Infrared sensors.

Tell me, what is it that ECM is jamming from 800 meters away that prevents what would otherwise be a lock?

Let me know, Mr. Logic. The missiles aren't using heat, the Battlemech uses Infrared sensors to pick out a target and lock onto it. Nothing an ECM does can jam that outside of the ECM's range.

An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly. It is used effectively to protect aircraft from guided missiles. Most air forces use ECM to protect their aircraft from attack. It has also been deployed by military ships and recently on some advanced tanks to fool laser/IR guided missiles. It is frequently coupled with stealth advances so that the ECM systems have an easier job. Offensive ECM often takes the form of jamming. Defensive ECM includes using blip enhancement and jamming of missile terminal homers.

further....

ECM is practiced by nearly all modern military units—land, sea or air. Aircraft, however, are the primary weapons in the ECM battle because they can "see" a larger patch of earth than a sea or land-based unit. When employed effectively, ECM can keep aircraft from being tracked by search radars, or targeted by surface-to-air missiles or air-to-air missiles. On aircraft ECM can take the form of an attachable underwing pod or could be embedded in the airframe. Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars like those mounted on the F-22 or MiG-35 can also act as an ECM device to track, locate and eventually jam enemy radar. Previous radar types were not capable of performing these activities due to:

• the inability of the antenna to use suboptimal frequencies
  
• the processing power needed
  
• the impossibility to practically intermix or segment antenna usages

Fighter planes using a conventional electronically scanned antenna mount dedicated jamming pods instead or, in the case of the US, German, and Italian air forces, may rely on electronic warfare aircraft to carry them.
Future Airborne Jammers

The Next Generation Jammer is being developed to replace the current AN/ALQ-99 carried on the E/A-18G and EA-6B electronic warfare planes. Planned for adoption around 2020, it will use a small AESA antenna divided into quadrants^[2] for all around coverage and retain the capability of highly directional jamming.
DARPA's Precision Electronic Warfare (PREW) project aims to develop a low-cost system capable of synchronizing several simple airborne jamming pods with enough precision to replicate the directionality of an electronically scanned antenna, avoiding collateral jamming of non-targeted receivers.^[3]

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 December 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[RobinSage]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Mama always said: "PUG-ing is like a box of Chock-o-lats. You never know what you're gonna get" (but you can bet yo azz at least one will be a coconut cream filled mother****** just waiting to leave a bad taste in your mouth!)

Best MWO quote I've ever heard....so true and yet....so funny! Nice one Bishop!! Great post too BTW!

[Tilon]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy.

Mechs don't use radar to target mechs, first off.

Furthermore, the page you are posting talks about MANY DIFFERENT TYPES of ECM.

For example, an ECM that fools infrared would work by masking a heat sigature, or creating false heat signature decoys. The GECM does no such thing.

The Battletech Guardian ECM is ONE type of ECM, the type that makes a lot of electronic noise to jam communications.

That only affects electronics within its sphere of influence, it does not prevent a mech outside its sphere of influence from locking on a heat signature.

Try talking about the canon Battletech ECM technology, instead of barfing copypasta from Wikipedia.

You don't get to lump in every countermeasure ever used in history and apply it to the Guardian ECM, which serves a very specific function.

Quote

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

Is this 'greatest drawback' currently expressed in MWO? No.

Why? Because you don't have to be near an enemy to jam them.

I rest my case.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[TANTE EMMA]

AHHHHH, the sweet tears of no-skillers...wonderful !!!

I seriously hope PGI does not give in to the spoiled "WoW" - kiddies... Mechwarrior has alway been about teamplay, coordination, tactics and skill...if these darn kids do not want it...well not our problem....there is some "braindeadtwitchgames" out there for you to enjoy.

...and please close the door on your way out.

LRMs are not dead and ECM is not OP'd. Simple.

[Tilon]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

AHHHHH, the sweet tears of no-skillers...wonderful !!!

I seriously hope PGI does not give in to the spoiled "WoW" - kiddies... Mechwarrior has alway been about teamplay, coordination, tactics and skill...if these darn kids do not want it...well not our problem....there is some "braindeadtwitchgames" out there for you to enjoy.

...and please close the door on your way out.

LRMs are not dead and ECM is not OP'd. Simple.

So you proceed to insult (I don't even run an LRM boat, I prefer direct fire weapons), then you conclude saying 'ECM is not OP. Simple'.

If you're not going to have a constructive conversation,why post?

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

When the Guardian's limited range actually becomes a drawback in game, it will be balanced.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[SteelPaladin]

I've said from the beginning that LRMs are fine for boats or pre-mades. It's worth it for boats to make the 1 ton investment in TAG to make their entire weapon loadout better, and pre-mades can guarantee there will be someone to have your back.

The problem is they've wrecked them as secondary armament for PUGs, which is going to bite them when you consider how many of the trial/stock designs have LRMs as part of mixed loadouts w/no TAG. Every single stock Centurion (except for YLW) has an LRM10 launcher that folks now have to wonder if they'll even get to use it on a drop. The CTF-4X's LRM5 was already kind of silly BEFORE it was a crap shoot if it'd even work. Even if those mechs could be customized, are you really going to rip out the guaranteed damage of a laser to make maybe a third or less of your loadout potentially useful? Or are you just going to replace the rack w/something useful 100% of the time?

And let's get over the "dumbfire LRMs" thing, because it's ludicrous. They move at 200 m/s. People thought AC/10s were too slow to land a decent direct fire hit at three times that speed. By the time you're close enough to hit anybody even half awake w/missiles moving that slow, you would have been better off to just yank the racks and replace them w/SRMs.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 06 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

So you proceed to insult (I don't even run an LRM boat, I prefer direct fire weapons), then you conclude saying 'ECM is not OP. Simple'.

If you're not going to have a constructive conversation,why post?



When the Guardian's limited range actually becomes a drawback in game, it will be balanced.

When a mech can paint the ECM carrier from 450 meters and the ECM doesn't block it, I would say it's short range has become a drawback.

also
The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.
Need help reading the "confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, and magscan part?

Which by the way are what the Mech uses to target.

[Tilon]

The issue is that ECM is acting as a jammer and an AOE cloak simultaneously, giving it no drawbacks. Any good game design has tradeoffs, ECM currently has no drawbacks whatsoever.

Jamming is supposed to give your position away, not cloak you. ECM jams mechs close to it, at the cost of giving itself away to mechs not close to it because it's broadcasting noise.

But since it's also some sort of sensor cloak on top of a jammer, it's a win-win and becomes an arms race.

If an ECM equipped force goes against a non-ECM equipped force in Battletech, it should not be a huge advantage for the ECM force. It never has been in canon, except in very specific situations (because ECM has a short range in canon). Currently, it is jamming weapons far past 200 meters. How does that make any sense?

Quote

When a mech can paint the ECM carrier from 450 meters and the ECM doesn't block it, I would say it's short range has become a drawback.

TAG works on a non-ECM mech too. It is not a 'drawback' in any way. That's like saying an AC/20 counters ECM. It's a non sequitur.


also

Quote

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.
Need help reading the "confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, and magscan part?

Which by the way are what the Mech uses to target.

Yes. WITHIN 200 METERS. It can't jam sensors that are farther away than its sphere of influence!

Currently, the ECM is acting as BOTH a jammer AND a sensor cloak, which is nonsensical.

I'd like to ask why you conveniently omitted the very next sentence?

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

Guardian should not jam sensors on a mech that is outside of its limited range. That's why it's called 'limited range'.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[TANTE EMMA]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you're not going to have a constructive conversation,why post?

because I can?

what kind of question is that?

learn to overcome obstacles, play clever and be better than the enemy, that is what wins games...and I seriously wish the QQ would finally stop. it destroyed so many promissing games, because some people want everything easymode.

[Volthorne]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

because some people want everything easymode.

Interestingly enough, that is most definitely the current implementation of ECM: easymode. Your argument is invalid.

Edited by Volthorne, 06 December 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[Tilon]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

learn to overcome obstacles, play clever and be better than the enemy, that is what wins games...

I know what teamwork is.

The issue here is that ECM is a win-win, and the only counter for ECM is to use it yourself.

Strategies are supposed to have drawbacks. What is the drawback to an ECM-equipped force?

Nothing, because it jams and cloaks.

An ECM effects ENEMY units, not friendly units, but in this game, it is both jamming enemy units close to it, and 'cloaking' friendly units next to it. This is not what the Guardian ECM does.

it is supposed to jam enemy sensors and communications within its limited range. Since it has, for some reason, been given a cloaking ability, it is effectively jamming mechs far outside of its limited range.

That is the part that is broken.

I am even willing to make a concession, I wouldn't mind if the ECM retains its long distance ability to disrupt the 'R' targeting. That could add to strategy, I agree. BAP should probably counter that, though.

The part I think is ridiculous is where it prevents an LRM mech 800 meters away from firing. That takes the 'limited range' drawback of ECM and turns it right on its head, instead making it a LONG RANGE missile shield, which it has never been intended to be.

Once again:

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters.

ECM acting as a long range missile shield turns the core drawback of ECM, limited range, on its head.

Sure, prevent mechs from 'R' targeting ECM mechs. But if an LRM mech puts its cursor on you from 800 meters away, it should get a target lock, because ECM is not cloaking you. ECM is a limited range jammer, and the mech is outside your jamming range.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tilon, on 06 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

The issue is that ECM is acting as a jammer and an AOE cloak simultaneously, giving it no drawbacks. Any good game design has tradeoffs, ECM currently has no drawbacks whatsoever.

Jamming is supposed to give your position away, not cloak you. ECM jams mechs close to it, at the cost of giving itself away to mechs not close to it because it's broadcasting noise.

But since it's also some sort of sensor cloak on top of a jammer, it's a win-win and becomes an arms race.

If an ECM equipped force goes against a non-ECM equipped force in Battletech, it should not be a huge advantage for the ECM force. It never has been in canon, except in very specific situations (because ECM has a short range in canon). Currently, it is jamming weapons far past 200 meters. How does that make any sense?


TAG works on a non-ECM mech too. It is not a 'drawback' in any way. That's like saying an AC/20 counters ECM. It's a non sequitur.


also


Yes. WITHIN 200 METERS. It can't jam sensors that are farther away than its sphere of influence!

Currently, the ECM is acting as BOTH a jammer AND a sensor cloak, which is nonsensical.

I'd like to ask why you conveniently omitted the very next sentence?



Guardian should not jam sensors on a mech that is outside of its limited range. That's why it's called 'limited range'.

yes, because using ECM to shield you only from objects within 180 meters is VERY useful.

Oh wait... it protects things WITHIN that 180 meters from detection from OUTSIDE>.. damn is that how that works?!!?!?!?

[TANTE EMMA]

Volthorne, on 06 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, that is most definitely the current implementation of ECM: easymode. Your argument is invalid.

Tell that to the full ECM - team, that we just ripped apart without even using ECM ourselves...if it would be so easy, ECM - teams would win over everyone, they do not, so it seems to take skill to use it correctly...and listening to some of the guys on the Open MWO TS it turns out to be quite a science, to coordinate and employ it well....and as stated many times before... I DO NOT CARE ABOUT PuGs being loners in a teambased game is their decision, not mine or others... 8vs8 is florishing and the waiting time to get matched up is like 1-3 seconds the most, so it seems a lot of people prefer to play as a team, even though they know they will be matched against other 8man premades.

[Revorn]

It looks to me like all this ECM-Fanboys are only Nonskillednoobboys who didnt where able to seek cover from LRM Fire and now calling themself skilled after being protected by an 1.5 tonn Pice of crap. Rofl.

[Parnage Winters]

Noakei Siegel, on 06 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

AHHHHH, the sweet tears of no-skillers...wonderful !!!

I seriously hope PGI does not give in to the spoiled "WoW" - kiddies... Mechwarrior has alway been about teamplay, coordination, tactics and skill...if these darn kids do not want it...well not our problem....there is some "braindeadtwitchgames" out there for you to enjoy.

...and please close the door on your way out.

LRMs are not dead and ECM is not OP'd. Simple.

I am going to pick on you, but only to prove a point. So bear with me here. I am sure you are a nice enough person generally..but man does that come off as just the biggest pile of blind ignorant elitism. You've made no actual points for or against the topic at hand except "It's fine and if you disagree with me you are "twitch" "wow player".

That's not how you discuss a topic. That is how you insult players who may disagree with you and make yourself sound like a jerk.

Onto the topic at hand, ECM got me thinking, what exactly was PGI thinking when they decided to essentially put in a system that allows complete stealth of a mech and I decided to do some digging.

Gentlemen, I do believe I found the origin of PGI's current version of ECM.
http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

As for.. ECM being too strong, it currently is far beyond the bounds of what ECM did in it's past incarnations and it's original concept in the tabletop. Currently the best solution to ECM is to have ECM of your own. This is true for both premade 8v8's and normal pick up groups. That's generally not good balance when the effective counter to anything is another one of the same thing.

If the only counter to a WoW Mage was another Mage(Casual game that it is so I've been told heh) it'd be really bad for the other classes as is the case here I feel.

Tag buffs might help, but in the end another ECM is going to always be more effective then tag. This is because ECM doesn't take up a valuable energy slot and is far easier to use then tag simply by the nature of you not needing to do anything at all except put in on the mech.

I have not played enough games this patch yet to determine for myself but conceptually and from what I have seen so far in both pick up's and premades ECM is very strong and I'd go so far to say it's too good rather then fine.

In short, it does need some alterations.

[p00k]

i read OPs post, and noticed he hasn't faced the 6 d-dc + 2 cicada teams running 8 ecms
i also suspect that the people he fought forgot about tag and assumed ecm made them impervious to lrm's, instead of continuing to use cover like everyone else with a brain did before ecm
i therefore concluded that OP managed to beat a few scrub "teams" and thus hasn't seen what ecm can really do, and should therefore be disregarded

sort of like how, after nov6 (but before the nov8 hotfix), if you ran into a team running 1 lrm boat, it was painful but not invincible. until people started taking 6+ lrm boats per team, and the only way to counter was to take 6+ lrm boats of your own

[Tilon]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

yes, because using ECM to shield you only from objects within 180 meters is VERY useful.

Oh wait... it protects things WITHIN that 180 meters from detection from OUTSIDE>.. damn is that how that works?!!?!?!?

So the ECM is jamming friendly mechs...to prevent them being targeted from farther away?

ECM isn't meant to 'shield' you, silly. It's meant to disrupt sensors and communications. For example, if your ECM lance flanks a team, it would disrupt their communications and electronics so they could not target you and their team would have trouble seeing what is going on.

ECM is a limited range sensor jammer. How do you jam your own teammates to prevent them being targeted from outside your ECM range?

See, this is where you pro-ECM people lose your marbles. ECM is a jammer, not a cloaker.

It affects enemy units, not friendly units.

Good post, Parnage. Check this out from the Null Signature System page:

Quote

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active.

See that, ladies and gentlemen? Masking your heat signature is hard.

Now, follow me here: Not only is ECM acting as a short range jammer, but PGI has also made it an AREA EFFECT NULL SIGNATURE SYSTEM.

In effect, the ECM is acting as some sort of wireless electronic heat signature nullifier.

Which is utter bollocks.

Edited by Tilon, 06 December 2012 - 04:10 PM.