154 replies to this topic

[FactorlanP]

The only fix that is needed is the return of knock downs and the correcting of the net code to remove the lag shield.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

You are complaining about ECM but the problem is actually streaks. I guess you havent really been following my questions very well.

Streaks were OP before, that's true, but making them entirely worthless(along with LRMs) shouldn't have been a solution. They could have just nerfed Streak damage and/or the shaking and fixed the problem that way. Instead they buried the weapon and Streak haters are now gloating about it. Fact is the game was imbalanced before and now it's imbalanced even worse. You shouldn't be anymore happy now than before. A solution to a problem shouldn't be to create an even bigger problem in its place.

[One Medic Army]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Streaks were OP before, that's true, but making them entirely worthless(along with LRMs) shouldn't have been a solution. They could have just nerfed Streak damage and/or the shaking and fixed the problem that way. Instead they buried the weapon and Streak haters are now gloating about it. Fact is the game was imbalanced before and now it's imbalanced even worse. You shouldn't be anymore happy now than before. A solution to a problem shouldn't be to create an even bigger problem in its place.

I agree.
But it's just so hard not to revel in the sweet, sweet tears of all the streakboats who thought they were actually good, and are now crying over having to actually aim...

I do feel a bit bad for the LRM users, since after the post-artemis nerf they needed serious teamwork to be really good, and now they're even harder to use. Not that I'd ever pilot an LRM boat myself.

Edited by One Medic Army, 06 December 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Codejack]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

As I said, the 200 meter range needs to go up because with it being so low, LRMs can't even lock on from farther away than Streaks. This is a very clear and obvious failure in game design and weapon balance. I can't imagine what they were thinking. LRMs being unable to lock farther away than Streaks means they are entirely pointless to even carry now. You have to be at 200 meters for a lock, and Streaks are 270 by default, this means you may as well just carry Streaks. They should have set this range to 300-400 by default. Worse yet is that if you are 180 or closer, your radar is jammed entirely, meaning you can't even use the Streaks. So you need to be <=200, but not <180, they only give you a whole 20 meter window to get a lock. LRMs also have a minimum of 180, so jammed or not, you still wouldn't be able to use them. You need more than 20 meters to work with(Streaks are suppose to work up to 270), and LRMs should lock from farther away than Streaks regardless.

Absolutely, we just differ as to how we would solve it.

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

The BAP should have also extended it somewhat farther for the guy carrying it. The entire point of this device is to improve sensors and/or counter an ECM, yet in this now messed up game, it does nothing to help. It leads me to believe that they didn't play other titles such as MW 4 Mercs. There the BAP increased radar range, the ECM shortened it. Together they just canceled each other out. Not complicated. They also did the samething with missile lock timers. They could do that here and it wouldn't render the ECM useless because 1 ECM affects everyone while the BAP is only going to affect the 1 guy that slots it.(And most would probably neglect it unless they stacked LRMs. It should fix LRMs. Instead it does nothing)

Well, they are certainly going off in their own direction, but that is why I laid out my plan the way I did: With multiple systems that can mutually disrupt one another in different ways (and given the obvious advantage they want to give ECM), it makes sense to have different systems benefit different missiles in different ways.

But NARC working for SSRMs would be overpowering streaks again, even by my (jokingly) loose standards, since an A1 Catapult could have NARC and 5 SSRMs, so make it a scout weapon to help LRM boats; TAG doesn't work at close range at all, so it makes more sense to be a mid-range benefit to both missiles; that leaves BAP, improved (read: powerful?) sensor suite that can burn through the ECM at close range.

That being said, if they were to set it to work like the old MW games, that would be fine with me, as well

[Avin]

-make BAP add its +25% to the ECM protected 200m detection/lock range (so we're at 250m for locks with BAP)
-make the detection range module stack with that too (so we're at approx. 280m for locks)

This will make streaks effective again if you're lining up an already engaged/distracted target (good streak cat pilots would hunt this way) but if that ECM commando is charging you're streak cat you're going to be lucky to get off one volly before he's inside 180m - plan to have friends around.

-make BAP add range to TAG (lets assume +300m to make the 750m that devs are talking about).

You're missle boats and dedicated scouts will start running TAG and BAP making them a little more self sufficient and effective at ranges longer than 450m (a light can cross that distance very quickly). If the ECM mech can close the distance and get within 180m they're still going to wreck havoc unless there is some counter ECM running. I would say this is how it should be.

Another crazy idea:
-make BAP add streak like locking and firing to NARC systems. This would give it way more utility. Would also make the stock Raven-3L into a holly electronic warfare terror which is what it was always meant to be.

I think the current implementation of ECM is pretty close. Various systems just needs some tweaking so its not a trump card at all ranges.

[soapyfrog]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Streaks were OP before, that's true, but making them entirely worthless(along with LRMs) shouldn't have been a solution. They could have just nerfed Streak damage and/or the shaking and fixed the problem that way. Instead they buried the weapon and Streak haters are now gloating about it. Fact is the game was imbalanced before and now it's imbalanced even worse. You shouldn't be anymore happy now than before. A solution to a problem shouldn't be to create an even bigger problem in its place.

That ECM countered streaks is just a happy accident. If streaks didn't exist, would people be whining as hard about ECM? I think not.

LRMs are still seeing decent use. I have been playing an LRM mech tonight with good success.

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 06 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

That ECM countered streaks is just a happy accident. If streaks didn't exist, would people be whining as hard about ECM? I think not.

OK, again, that's not the game; you would be right, if that's how the game was, but it isn't.

Or are you suggesting removing streaks from the game entirely? Then people would be whinging that ECM didn't do enough!

[Psikez]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

OK, again, that's not the game; you would be right, if that's how the game was, but it isn't.

Or are you suggesting removing streaks from the game entirely? Then people would be whinging that ECM didn't do enough!

I'll advocate for removing streaks. Or bumping up getting the clan SSRM 6s in.

[yashmack]

I dont see a need for a fix

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

One Medic Army, on 06 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I do feel a bit bad for the LRM users, since after the post-artemis nerf they needed serious teamwork to be really good, and now they're even harder to use. Not that I'd ever pilot an LRM boat myself.

LRMs were already a weak weapon. I don't think many people realized this. You almost never came near the upper end of the damage chart unless you were allowed to freely unload out 1k+ missiles on idiots that never used cover, and that's not very often. Most enemies also had a few AMS on their team or could easily ignore missiles with terrain while fighting your team maters. You're pretty much LRM immune already in Frozen City and the other zones offer ample cover if you bother to use it. But now... LRMs were finally nerfed into complete uselessness. As if they weren't limited in usage/potential enough already, Piranha now felt the need to entirely take away your ability to get a lock on. There's no reason to even use them anymore. Everyone either has an ECM or huddles near the ECM Mech, meaning you have to be 180-200 meters to get a lock. If you're going to get that close... you may as well "not" use LRMs.(The letters mean "long range missile" fyi. I think Piranha forgot this.) Worse yet is how upgrades do nothing to help. BAP and Artemis do nothing. BAP should have restored some of my radar range if nothing else. But nope, nothing. I paid 1.1M for that Artemis BTW, which now does nothing, and Piranha expects me to pay even more to take it off. This is extremely poor game design and if I knew they were later going to do things like this to us I honestly would have kept my 120$ 4 months ago.

yashmack, on 06 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I dont see a need for a fix

Should I recommend an eye doctor? I mean, unlike other issues that are more debatable, this one is very obviously bad.

[R3B0]

I think ECM is perfect. Adapt.

[Codejack]

Psikez, on 06 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I'll advocate for removing streaks. Or bumping up getting the clan SSRM 6s in.

What? So, either removing them entirely, or bringing in vastly more powerful versions?

[yashmack]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

LRMs were already a weak weapon. I don't think many people realized this. You almost never came near the upper end of the damage chart unless you were allowed to freely unload out 1k+ missiles on idiots that never used cover, and that's not very often. Most enemies also had a few AMS on their team or could easily ignore missiles with terrain while fighting your team maters. You're pretty much LRM immune already in Frozen City and the other zones offer ample cover if you bother to use it. But now... LRMs were finally nerfed into complete uselessness. As if they weren't limited in usage/potential enough already, Piranha now felt the need to entirely take away your ability to get a lock on. There's no reason to even use them anymore. Everyone either has an ECM or huddles near the ECM Mech, meaning you have to be 180-200 meters to get a lock. If you're going to get that close... you may as well "not" use LRMs.(The letters mean "long range missile" fyi. I think Piranha forgot this.) Worse yet is how upgrades do nothing to help. BAP and Artemis do nothing. BAP should have restored some of my radar range if nothing else. But nope, nothing. I paid 1.1M for that Artemis BTW, which now does nothing, and Piranha expects me to pay even more to take it off. This is extremely poor game design and if I knew they were later going to do things like this to us I honestly would have kept my 120$ 4 months ago.



Should I recommend an eye doctor? I mean, unlike other issues that are more debatable, this one is very obviously bad.

nope, ive got glasses and see very well with them on
I see no need to fix a working game mechanic

[Psikez]

Codejack, on 06 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

What? So, either removing them entirely, or bringing in vastly more powerful versions?

Either way, gravy. Not worried about it

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

BiffAlexander, on 06 December 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I think ECM is perfect. Adapt.

How? As explained, what should be the counters to the ECM don't work. The only way to "adapt" is to just join in on the brawling like everyone else and forget missiles ever existed. Is that really your solution? Nevermind the weapons and equipments that are now totally pointless in the game?

[One Medic Army]

Well, once clan SSRM6s are in, then either Streaks are going to be nerfed into oblivion, invalidated by ECM and such, or re-imagined so they aren't so much better than normal SRMs.
They're not supposed to increase the damage potential vs SRM2s, and nobody ever uses SRM2s.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

yashmack, on 06 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

nope, ive got glasses and see very well with them on
I see no need to fix a working game mechanic

What is it with people like this that don't value any kind of balance in their video games. "working" doesn't mean balanced. Ya, it works, that's actually the problem. It works far too well by design and its counters no longer work at all. Speaking of which, do you not see a need to fix the other game mechanics which are now totally ruined by an ECM?(Ie, BAP?)

[Asmudius Heng]

BiffAlexander, on 06 December 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I think ECM is perfect. Adapt.

So if they put in a vastly OP weapon that was able to target through ECM but cost an extra ton and crit slot say and everyone started using it because it would basically make ECM worthless you would also be cool with that and would just adapt?

If yes, then i actually appreciate that you are the type of gamer who just works with what he has got.

However you think it is perfect which means any change means it is less than perfect ... which means you would not like to adapt to any change making you someone who just loves ECM and should not tell anyone to adapt because if they nerf ECM you will be the first to cry yea? Thought so.

What people like you fail to grasp is that most people who have an argument about balance of weapons DO adapt. They might not like it, but if they are competitive they will find a work around. That doesnt mean they approve of it.

We will all adapt, but put a better argument forward to why you think it is perfect or you just look like an ill informed troll.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Ya, I didn't look at it that way. How about we fix this device properly as it needs it, then you adapt?

[Codejack]

Bluten, on 06 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

How? As explained, what should be the counters to the ECM don't work. The only way to "adapt" is to just join in on the brawling like everyone else and forget missiles ever existed. Is that really your solution? Nevermind the weapons and equipments that are now totally pointless in the game?

I wonder if all of the hostility towards streaks and the implied lack of skill is actually projection; that is, they are complaining because the close range lock-on mechanic actually requires you to keep the reticule on the target box while it locks on, and that was too difficult for them, so they are trying to metagame their way out of their own shortcomings?

I mean, netcode lag aside, keeping the crosshairs in one place while you fire a weapon that is going to go right there is pretty easy in comparison. Note also the complete lack of evidence to support the "ECM is fine" position; it's entirely appeal to emotion and other fallacious rhetorical tricks, interspersed with outright lies.