288 replies to this topic

[Mr 144]

Although I'm very new to the whole 8-man thing, I've observed these general requirements....

#1 Warm Bodies....seriously, late 3rd shift US hours has a very low pool from what I've seen.

#2 ECM...About the only weight class you have a choice on what to bring right now is heavies.

#3 Fear is the Mindkiller...Let it pass through you. Pugging is the crucible, and you are probablly better than you think. I have found nothing overly 'hard' about 8-man. If you've been playing for a while, you'll do fine.

#4 A word on VOIP...#1 usually overides the 'need' but just because you 'don't do voice' does not mean you cannot have 'ears'. I don't do the Mic thing presently, but I have TS installed, and if I don't want to wake or annoy anyone at home, pop an earbud in one ear.

I still haven't done prime time 8-man, but late night has been fun for me....nothing annoying...basic business...no drama...light humor during the agonizing wait to find an 8th.

Mr 144

[Ilwrath]

Ghogiel, on 07 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

space bucks

Of all previous mechwarrior games multiplayer experiences cheese builds were the staple. Ain't cheating, it's mechwarrior.

It seems that the players think that the cheese builds makes 8 vs 8 pure garbage. So Mechwarrior = pure garbage? Of course the devs are to blame. They could have prevented this by forcing people to NOT drop with full cheese builds.

I don't really care about the 8 vs 8 because I want to drop single, against other single droppers, but the 8 vs 8 fiasco is messing up my pub games and that is simply bad.

The last patch was supposed to move try-hards on vent over to their own matches and thereby improve the game for everybody. 8 vs 8 players could get a better, more competitive, setup without pubs to mess up their games by simply being bad at the game or doing stupid afk farming while pubs could get to play without getting run over by 4 men on vent.

And it totally failed.

Edited by Ilwrath, 07 December 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[Norris J Packard]

I just figured out that we have the exact same winning potential in 4-mans, with a lot of less delay and chatter while receiving the same earnings.

Why wouldn't any sane person just do 4-mans?

[FiveDigits]

I see several factors making people go back to small groups from eights right now:

• Smashed self-confidence. Many players thought themselves and their team play better than they are from running 4 mans vs. randoms. A plummeting win rate makes many reconsider.
  
• Reduced income. Organizing 8 man drops takes more time. Matches are fought more carefully and thus take longer. Win rates are in the 40-60% range. So C-Bills per hour are much lower than while PuG stomping.
  
• ECM requirement. Two to three ECM mechs are required in the current meta to have a shot at winning 8 mans. LRMs and Streaks are much more difficult to use. This limits the freedom of choice regarding mechs and equipment.

[Daimonos]

Six or more D-DC teams weren't much in evidence last night, European time. Clearly some folk are meeting them, but they're not yet the standard loadout. Across my team's drops we ran numerous Jenners, Hunchbacks and Cataphracts, and met plenty of Catapults. Variety isn't dead. You need some ECM: that's a given. Beyond that, we did better when folk drove the mechs they play well in rather than what "the meta" might dictate.

We played some 8v8, took a break for some 4-man drops, then went back to 8v8 again. There's still a grind: after the open beta reset, we don't yet have all the mechs we want. (And there are more coming, of course.) 8v8 is demanding, intense, and a huge amount of fun but yields low rates of XP and CB gain, and leaves some of us needing a breather every so often :- )

[grayson marik]

The most easy workaround until they get a sufficient mm done:

Allow group invitation into drops so 2 groups can negotiate the terms in TS, prior to launch a match against each other in the game.

This might serve as a temporary solution until bv/ xp/ weight based mm or lobby system and stuff are rdy.

Would also be relatively easy to implement. Have a list with group leaders next to friends list and be able to invite that leader. If accepted, the group of the inviting leader and the group of the invited leader get matched against each other, once all players in both groups are ready.

That would fix up the imba to a point, where you guys ( the devs ) can take your time to really go over matchmaking and implement something sufficient.
Without stepping through the whole "Phase 3 - Sh.itstorm - Phase 4 - Sh.itstorm - Phase 5....."

Edited by grayson marik, 07 December 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[Salticidae]

8V8 sucks balls we were doing them last night, and its like playing MW4 every one is in 100 ton atlas, and we wasnt so we have to go all assault to stand a any chance.

Then in another game we all in the assaults and didn't see any thing to 10 mins waiting on near the ridge and our base so we decided to assault the ridge and the other team were all in lights ran past us, all had cap modules and capped before we could even get back
8v8 is just cheese, and i wont be doing anymore till theres some sort of balance, we can win way more in 4 man groups

Edited by Zyne, 07 December 2012 - 02:26 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

this is why i'm a lone wolf and will remain so i really don't see the fun in slowly stalking a map and picking on the first guy who shows up and with my big mates blast the hell out of him and move on to the next... must be really boring. or the example above for a cheap unforfilling win. that's bland. do you ever have fast heartrates soar when activaty livens, making many decisions on where to be whos the biggest threat etc? you know fast paced fun like a game aught to be. where each kill is an achievement not just another stroke of chalk. i'd be happy even if you shouted at me what the experience is like cause it sounds like the same stuff happens over and over.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 December 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[Kobold]

Zyne, on 07 December 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Then in another game we all in the assaults . . .8v8 is just cheese

A failing on your part to include a plan for scouting does not make it "cheese" on their part.

[Edi123]

This was foreseeable, there are trolls and smurfs in all f2p-games, so simply adding 8vs8 doesn´t cut it. Without a proper matchmaking we need at least the option for a solo queue, where all matches are arranged with solo-droppers on both sides only. Also the possibility of dropping simultanous should be dealt with, maybe let the matchmaker search longer for possible players and then randomize them, instead of launching the game as soon there are enough people. I dont even care if this random matchmaker takes tonnage into account. You can have fun matches with slight imbalance in tonnage, but a 4-man pugstomper team surely ruins it.

[Daimonos]

Edi123, on 07 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

there are trolls and smurfs in all f2p-games [...] Without a proper matchmaking we need at least the option for a solo queue, where all matches are arranged with solo-droppers on both sides only.

Those trolls and smurfs could still turn up in the solo queue, masquerading as 'solos' while being on comms. I'd rather PGI spent more effort on better integrating voice into the game, than build a 'solo only' queue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jade Kitsune, on 07 December 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Everything DOES have it's place...

Except when you can modify things to what you want... then it becomes who brings the biggest guns and who has the most armor.

THERE ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, HAS TO BE SOME FORM OF LIMITATION ON DROPS.

it's that simple, because it's Human Nature that drives the arms race... everyone wants to pilot the "biggest and best" and when you're against a team of 5 atlas 3 jenners, if you're not running the same, you're screwed. simple as that if you're a more diverse group.

Humans Min-Max, it's our nature it seems, take the biggest and the best, of the fastest and the hardest to hit, ect ect... So we've got 100 ton behemoth's slugging it out, and light mech dogfights, ECM jamming by the Atlai and everything else is just a clusterscrew.

If we [the community] does not have clearly defined rules, then the system will be abused far worse than if there are rules governing what can be abused. Make sense?

It's one thing to function within "Here's all the mechs, have at it" and another to function within "you can have 2 of each weightclass on your team" and yet another to have "you have 500 tons to work with.

Each of those options are exploitable in some way, and competative teams, will abuse the HELL out of "here's everything" so now we have two choices, the tonnage limit and the Weightclass limit. Going by tonnage allows for stuff like "I'm bringing an Atlas, it's fully armored, and armed with weapons that cause it to weigh only 50 tons so it's legal!" Going by Weightclass means that, while you might take a Phract, I may take a Cat or a Kat, or a Dragon...

Really since we don't have Battle Value in yet, Weightclass limits are the best way to go.

Ontop of that, classic "Battletech" Matches were in the old days, limited by either tonnage of "stock" units, or "bring a lance of 1 of each weightclass"

I know in my CBT games, I tend to limit my players to 1 of each weightclass for their 4 mech lance. and it usually balances fairly well [then again I only allow stock configs.]

Unless, in the Matchmaker an Atlas counts as 100 tons no matter what? A Hunchback is 50? I am thinking about how the drop was set on MechCommander 2. (Of course you didn't get to mess with individual mechs weight really anyhow, but that is a different thing). Each Mech, was considered a basic drop weight no matter what. So set a , oh, 500 ton drop limit, and if someone wants to run a "skinny" Atlas, that's fine.. but it still counts as 100 tons of the drop limit.

[N0MAD]

What a bunch of BS by most of you seriously. A moment to Explain.
A mate and i were playing, seen an old friend on opposite team, greeted him got invited to his TS.
There we found another old friend hadnt played with them in years, so 6 of us at this stage 4 old friends 2 new ones.
We search friends list find 2 other bodies. Group of 8 really had not played as a group ever. So we group up an drop into 8v8, got base caped first game in a mater of mins, OK we learn and change tactics from there we didnt lose a match in 2 hours of play, games were available one after another seems theres plenty of 8 teams. We had mechs of all sorts what we didnt expect was the how do i call it bad choices of mechs tactics these other teams employed seriously. One team had at least 3 missile boats, really? with ECM around? Others were Assault heavy well LoL. My opinion was wow the quality of these 8 man premades is well subparr. Our group splits up for the evening so 2 of us go back to Pugging, well well if we dont see these teams near full back in Pug games, why they had numbers. So dont tell me cheese builds or bad rewards we all made good bank. Egos they cant compete Vs other 8 mans so its back to Pugg Bashing..LOL. Only way they going to get beter is to persist with 8 man drops not going Pugg hunting to bolster their egos. So ya flame on but ive seen it with my own Eyes, dont blame cheese builds we adapted or say reward is bad balance is bad etc etc. So your premades were stomping pugs you goto 8v8s and find OHHH **** we are getting beat must be imbalance or cheese or..orr..or **** lets just go stomp pugs again.
Ok lets get all the excusses and whine again.

[Edi123]

daimonos, on 07 December 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

Those trolls and smurfs could still turn up in the solo queue, masquerading as 'solos' while being on comms. I'd rather PGI spent more effort on better integrating voice into the game, than build a 'solo only' queue.

Exactly, and for this reason i added in the very next sentence:

Quote

Also the possibility of dropping simultanous should be dealt with, maybe let the matchmaker search longer for possible players and then randomize them...

Maybe i did not stress this out before, but both aspects are important. Solo vs solo queue AND impossibility to sync drop. Integrated voice comms woudn´t address the problem. Its easy enough to get them using a third party program already, so we have to assume that the average PUG-player doesn´t want play this way, intergrated solution or not.

[Bishop Steiner]

FiveDigits, on 07 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

I see several factors making people go back to small groups from eights right now:

• Smashed self-confidence. Many players thought themselves and their team play better than they are from running 4 mans vs. randoms. A plummeting win rate makes many reconsider.
  
• Reduced income. Organizing 8 man drops takes more time. Matches are fought more carefully and thus take longer. Win rates are in the 40-60% range. So C-Bills per hour are much lower than while PuG stomping.
  
• ECM requirement. Two to three ECM mechs are required in the current meta to have a shot at winning 8 mans. LRMs and Streaks are much more difficult to use. This limits the freedom of choice regarding mechs and equipment.

Which only matter is
1) You give a crap about C-Bills. So far, I have never actually "Lost Money" in Open Beta.
2) Give a crapabout K/Dr or W/L. I was warning my crew BEFORE the patch to get ready for both taking a good hit. And as long as the matches are hard fought and all, I could care less. Yes I prefer a win, but it ain't the deciding factor of fun. PUG stomps are boring. But so are running "required" min/max Groups based off ECM, all running essentially the same tactic.

So far the most "Fun" mix is when you drop a 4 man, with 4 PUGs, and actually get the luck to face another 4 man with 4 PUGs, as it add randomness and variety to the match. I have had some very colorful fights in those. Unfortunately, you also run the risk of dropping as a dual premade against 8 PUGs, and most times, it does become a stomp. (Though I have been in a PUG drop where we stomped a cocky sync drop. Had some PUGs who don't mind following the leader, and all we had to do was pick a good route, and type our "A", boom all PUGs (pretty much) start shooting A....

So, until such time as the mechanics and meta get fixed, I will continue to rotate thru all 3 scenarios as circumstances and my boredom level dictate. Sometimes "competitivenes" calls for a certain meta, but that is usually a good sign things need to be fixed. And I would rather lose a hundred "close" fights, than win 100 cookie cutter fights or PUG Stomps. (OK< maybe I would rather lose about half of them, if we are being REALLY honest... 100% losing sucks lol)

[Streeter]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Our group splits up for the evening so 2 of us go back to Pugging, well well if we dont see these teams near full back in Pug games, why they had numbers. *snip*

probably get the same guys in here talking about you beating up on pugs when you should be in 8 v 8 LOL

with 8 man teams, funnily enough, requiring 8 people on the team its hard to say for sure if they simply had 1 person leave their group instantly making it impossible to join an 8 v 8 game or if they deliberately split into 2x 4man groups. Im sure you couldnt see both their 4 man groups at the same time?

As much as I hate farmers and rambos the complete lack of any balance in 8v8 and with ECM introduced at the same time definitely restricts what competitive builds you can bring to the table with out putting your team at a disadvantage. And surprise surprise it makes the game stale pretty fast when you have a pretty limited variety of mechs you can choose to use.

I think Ill reserve my hate on team players wanting to play a bit of both 8v8 and 4man teams for now.

[Bishop Steiner]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

What a bunch of BS by most of you seriously. A moment to Explain.
A mate and i were playing, seen an old friend on opposite team, greeted him got invited to his TS.
There we found another old friend hadnt played with them in years, so 6 of us at this stage 4 old friends 2 new ones.
We search friends list find 2 other bodies. Group of 8 really had not played as a group ever. So we group up an drop into 8v8, got base caped first game in a mater of mins, OK we learn and change tactics from there we didnt lose a match in 2 hours of play, games were available one after another seems theres plenty of 8 teams. We had mechs of all sorts what we didnt expect was the how do i call it bad choices of mechs tactics these other teams employed seriously. One team had at least 3 missile boats, really? with ECM around? Others were Assault heavy well LoL. My opinion was wow the quality of these 8 man premades is well subparr. Our group splits up for the evening so 2 of us go back to Pugging, well well if we dont see these teams near full back in Pug games, why they had numbers. So dont tell me cheese builds or bad rewards we all made good bank. Egos they cant compete Vs other 8 mans so its back to Pugg Bashing..LOL. Only way they going to get beter is to persist with 8 man drops not going Pugg hunting to bolster their egos. So ya flame on but ive seen it with my own Eyes, dont blame cheese builds we adapted or say reward is bad balance is bad etc etc. So your premades were stomping pugs you goto 8v8s and find OHHH **** we are getting beat must be imbalance or cheese or..orr..or **** lets just go stomp pugs again.
Ok lets get all the excusses and whine again.

Do you want a cookie? Wow, because not everyone feels the same way about the current state as you do, we are unable to cope and inferior players and need to PUG? Go pull your self righteous head pout of your azz sparky. 2 days of 8v8 I never even saw you name drop.

There is for certain some of what you said, but your comment is asinine.

Streeter, on 07 December 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

probably get the same guys in here talking about you beating up on pugs when you should be in 8 v 8 LOL

with 8 man teams, funnily enough, requiring 8 people on the team its hard to say for sure if they simply had 1 person leave their group instantly making it impossible to join an 8 v 8 game or if they deliberately split into 2x 4man groups. Im sure you couldnt see both their 4 man groups at the same time?

As much as I hate farmers and rambos the complete lack of any balance in 8v8 and with ECM introduced at the same time definitely restricts what competitive builds you can bring to the table with out putting your team at a disadvantage. And surprise surprise it makes the game stale pretty fast when you have a pretty limited variety of mechs you can choose to use.

I think Ill reserve my hate on team players wanting to play a bit of both 8v8 and 4man teams for now.

wow a common sense approach instead of the "macho testosterone pro gamer BS".

Are you sure you are in the right game?!?!?!

[General Taskeen]

I think people need to chill out. Match making as a whole, for any size group, is no where near done yet.

[Daimonos]

@Edi, yes I did miss your 'randomize the players' point. I understand that you're advocating a queue that minimized the chances of anyone being on comms. I'd rather make it as easy as possible for players to talk to each other. The most common request from the players is for adequate pre- and post-match lobbies, which could in theory cater for both 'voice' and 'no voice' preferences. I guess we'll have to see what 'phase 3' matchmaking brings.

I'm still surprised that lobbies, and better voice integration, don't seem to figure in the Command Chair roadmaps. Ho hum.

[Bishop Steiner]

General Taskeen, on 07 December 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I think people need to chill out. Match making as a whole, for any size group, is no where near done yet.

As Ageneral shouldn't you be couching that as an order?