164 replies to this topic

[Tilon]

ECM, ton for ton, is by far the most powerful equipment in the game right now.

This means mechs without it are relegated to Second Class status.

This can easily be seen in the 8v8 D-DC lolathons.

Remember. ECM weighs 1.5 tons.

This is the same as...

A heatsink and a half, or an AMS with 1 ton ammo.

For such light weight, the ECM currently acts as a jammer within its range, and also acts as an AOE Null Signature System for friendly mechs.

ECM was never meant to act as a Null Signature System. Null systems hide YOUR signature, ECM jams ENEMY sensors within its limited range.

Null Signature System rules:

Quote

The null signature system features heat baffles that mask the 'Mech's heat sinks and reduce its infrared signature. However, the baffles restrict the normal venting of heat, meaning the 'Mech generates an additional 10 points of heat while the system is active.

Notice how a Null Signature system comes at a drawback of a significant heat cost (All strategies should have drawbacks!)

Currently, ECM is acting as both a jammer of enemy mechs, and an AOE Null Signature System with no drawback whatsoever.

This is why mechs with ECM equippable are the new Flavor of the Month.

Remember, ECM isn't supposed to cloak friendly mechs. It jams enemy mechs.

From Sarna:

Quote

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range.

When the ECM's limited range actually becomes its greatest drawback in game, ECM will be balanced. Currently, ECM's range is unlimited, because it is jamming enemy mechs from 800 meters away.

This is because the devs mistakenly coded it to both jam and act as a Null Signature System. Null Signature should come at a significant drawback, as it does in canon.

Disclaimer: I don't run LRM boats. I don't own a streakcat. In fact, I prefer direct fire weapons. So, you can go ahead and dispense with the 'learn2aim' mockery postings.

I just think that all strategies should have drawbacks. LRMs were already useless at short range. Adding the LRM warning message made them harder to use at long range. Should they really be forced to compete against an uncounterable long range AOE cloak too? That will make LRMs effectively extinct.

TAG is not a counter. You can't hold a TAG reliably on a running light mech.

Furthermore, LRMs are not useful enough to make jumping all these hurdles even feasible. Why take all the current drawbacks of LRMs when you could just equip something else that isn't relegated to Second Class status?

There is no reason that LRMs should have this many obstacles to use. It's a 'support weapon' because it can't be used at short range, and because of its indirect fire capabilities. That doesn't mean it should be useless without a constant spotter!

There is no precedent whatsoever for direct fire LRMs being countered by ECM in Battletech.

Many people like ECM because they hate streaks. I can sympathize. Streak missiles were never intended to be easier to hit with necessarily, they were just never supposed to fire and miss. Currently, they can lock on once and fire 30 times. Streak missiles as currently implemented are much, much easier to hit with than normal SRMs. That is why they are broken.

So we should figure out a way to balance that. Liking ECM just because it acts as a proxy nerf to streaks is dodging the bigger issue here.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

i wont quote you...so bumping for Truth

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 07 December 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[OGFAMINE]

Bump for truth.

[Biglead]

Wrong.

[Timelordwho]

ECM is the most efficient thing you can out on your mech.

As a thought experiment, what is the max tonnage/crits usage you'd still take ecm?

[Odins Fist]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

ECM, ton for ton, is by far the most powerful equipment in the game right now.

.
I beg to differ, I run "NO" ECM, or LRMs.... Not the Atlas D-DC either..
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ScreenShot taken last night December 6th, 2012

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[xDark]

I do just as well in ECM mechs as I do in non-ECM mechs. ECM is nice to have, but it is NOT essential in any way - you just have to change the way you play.

Adapt or die. Also L2P.

Edited by xDark, 07 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

love all the kids who are mad they can't press R and know exactly where the enemy team is.

more please.

[Timelordwho]

STRONG LIKE BEAR, on 07 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

love all the kids who are mad they can't press R and know exactly where the enemy team is.

more please.

If you could put ecm on any mech, would you ever not put it on?

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

For pugs by myself? Of course not.

[Captain Midnight]

IMO missiles were ruining the game so badly that deleting them from the game would have been appropriate, this was as close as they had the balls to get to that dream. I like them how they are.

[Biglead]

Timelordwho, on 07 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

If you could put ecm on any mech, would you ever not put it on?

Yes. Because how many alpha strikes from an ECM does it take to kill a commando?

[Psikez]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Disclaimer: I don't run LRM boats. I don't own a streakcat. In fact, I prefer direct fire weapons. So, you can go ahead and dispense with the 'learn2aim' mockery postings.

TAG is not a counter. You can't hold a TAG reliably on a running light mech.

Lrn2Tag

[Tilon]

Odins Fist, on 07 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

.
I beg to differ, I run "NO" ECM, or LRMs.... Not the Atlas D-DC either.. .

Posting that you can do damage without ECM doesn't prove anything at all.

xDark, on 07 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

I do just as well in ECM mechs as I do in non-ECM mechs. ECM is nice to have, but it is NOT essential in any way - you just have to change the way you play.

Adapt or die. Also L2P.

You didn't respond to anything I said. You're just throwing insults out. Show some maturity and have a real discussion.

'Adapt or die' is an extremely shoddy argument. We're talking game balance here.

Most people are going to 'adapt' by not taking LRMs, especially a mech which just carries a single LRM10 or so. Builds like that will become effectively extinct.

STRONG LIKE BEAR, on 07 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

love all the kids who are mad they can't press R and know exactly where the enemy team is.

more please.

Oh, stuff it. I actually don't have much of a problem with the lack of targeting, it's rather cool. I would be willing to concede that, to make ECM stronger than it is in TT, by allowing it to prevent targeting from longer range.

It just shouldn't prevent LRM locks. if the LRM has a direct line of sight to you, it should be able to put its reticle on you and lock you without an 'R' target.

Now, can people please grow up a little and stop throwing insults? I wrote a well thought out post. If you disagree, it would look better for you to actually respond to some points, rather than accusing me of 'failing to adapt'.

The issue is that people are 'adapting' by buying ECM mechs and dropping LRMs. This is merely evidence that something is wrong. LRMs are not good enough to justify jumping all the hoops to get them to work.

Psikez, on 07 December 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Lrn2Tag

Uh, no. People aren't going to 'Lrn2Hold a laser on the 150kph cicada', they're going to unequip LRMs because they're not worth the trouble anymore.

People who like ECM are mostly people who just hate LRMs to begin with. This thread is proving that so far.

I was doing very well with direct fire mechs pre-ECM. I had no problem avoiding LRMs pre-ECM.

to now relegate LRMs to Second Class status will make them hardly ever used. Too many weaknesses, too many drawbacks. Why hold a TAG on an enemy cicada when you can just shoot at them with direct fire instead?

I notice nobody ever responds to the points made about Null Signature Systems. Null Signature Systems, with their significant heat drawback, proves conclusively that cloaking your own signature should come at a cost of some kind to make it balanced.

Edited by Tilon, 07 December 2012 - 03:43 PM.

[Timelordwho]

Biglead, on 07 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Yes. Because how many alpha strikes from an ECM does it take to kill a commando?

If 1.5t of ecm weight is hampering your ability to blow up a commando, you might want to rethink what you are doing.

[Team Leader]

I just played a match where a 4 man group had ecm on all their stuff. It completely shuts down streaks while they are free to fire away, which basically made my jenner half as effective. It wasnt fun, they really overdid the ECM capabilities. There needs to be some sort of counter to it, like buff BAP a little perhaps.

Edited by Team Leader, 07 December 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Psikez]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

You didn't respond to anything I said. You're just throwing insults out. Show some maturity and have a real discussion.

'Adapt or die' is an extremely shoddy argument. We're talking game balance here.

Most people are going to 'adapt' by not taking LRMs, especially a mech which just carries a single LRM10 or so. Builds like that will become effectively extinct.

Oh, stuff it. I actually don't have much of a problem with the lack of targeting, it's rather cool. I would be willing to concede that, to make ECM stronger than it is in TT, by allowing it to prevent targeting from longer range.

It just shouldn't prevent LRM locks. if the LRM has a direct line of sight to you, it should be able to put its reticle on you and lock you without an 'R' target.

Now, can people please grow up a little and stop throwing insults? I wrote a well thought out post. If you disagree, it would look better for you to actually respond to some points, rather than accusing me of 'failing to adapt'.

The issue is that people are 'adapting' by buying ECM mechs and dropping LRMs. This is merely evidence that something is wrong.


Uh, no. People aren't going to 'Lrn2Hold a laser on the 150kph cicada', they're going to unequip LRMs because they're not worth the trouble anymore.

People who like ECM are mostly people who just hate LRMs to begin with. This thread is proving that so far.

Theres no point having a dicussion with you because you've made it quite clear theres no changing your mind. Hence the thread will devolve into trolling and lrn2tag.

You act like this hasn't been covered in the 200 other posts in the topic. We can rehash it all every day when someone thinks they've come up with why ECM is so bad. All you can expect is OMG ECM IS AWFULBAD and the otherside of LRN2PLAY/TAG/ADAPT. I can't imagine you were honestly expecting anything different?

ECM will change or it won't.
UAC5s got nerfed within a day and there wasn't even that much complaining.
The devs can see SARNA. They know what the technical manuals say.

[The Cheese]

Odins Fist, on 07 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

.
I beg to differ, I run "NO" ECM, or LRMs.... Not the Atlas D-DC either..
.
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ScreenShot taken last night December 6th, 2012

How many times are you going to post that?

[Smeghead87]

I don't know if everyone that's calling for ECM nerf is just playing 8v8 but I'm seeing less and less ECM in pug games with each passing day. Played about 5 games tonight without a single ECM present.
Even when it does appear, it isn't a game changer, had wins without any ECM on my team and the enemy had it.
Had losses when we had the ECM advantage.
It doesn't trump good piloting in my opinion.

[Drenzul]

I agree that ECM is too light, I don't find it too powerful, but I don't really see the point of running a scout without it currently.

Its nice for D-DC but nowhere near as major as it is for scouts, who are at a serious disadvantage if they get jammed without been able to counter.

Increase the weight to 3-4 tons and 3-4 slots and you now have something that is a viable option to take instead of a 'must have', alternative, split it into 2 separate modules to do the two affects (180m comms jam or 180m 'cloaking') so you can take one module, or both at the extra weight/slots in return.

I do not however agree that ECM is too powerful, its a major factor on the game but with the coming TAG range increase, it only really helps if your team is behind cover and have more ECM than the enemy. EW becomes a viable option (and any organised team will want SOME at least) but not an essential factor for all scouts.