226 replies to this topic

[Arikiel]

An 80 ton Mech with basic engines at speed 4 has 42.5 tons left after engines and basic components. At speed 5 it only has 12.5 tons left. Sure let's sacrifice 30 tons of weapons, armor, heat sinks, etc for 1 point of speed. That sounds reasonable.

[Kaanon]

Phoenix Hawk LAM.


I was brought into Battletech through my recognition of the Veritech/Valkyrie, Destroids/Unseen etc but LAM never sat well with me. With Macross/Robotech I was able to suspend some disbelief but the detail of the Battletech/Mechwarrior universe games (tt, card, and PC) the political depth and the logic applied to the mechs themselves made me resist this design more than the Urbie, the Scorpion or the Goliath and I loathed those designs greatly. The unseen designs are among my favorites, they're a perfect fit but LAM is ugly and shameless imho.

[Sassori]

movingtarget, on 14 May 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

i dont think it needs a ultra 20 to get 2 shots off on a mech thats not faceing it(might have better luck getting 2 off on an assault class though ) and since it has full torso rotation i can peek alot less of my mech around a corner (or over a roof top)to get my shot off, sure any thing bigger then it will rip it appart in one alpha but will any of the light class mechs fare much better in a urban map? if i play hit and run well i could have a assault waste his time trying to get me while my team (or other urban mechs) pick him appart when he turns to get me

Any mech can turn around so it's not getting shot in the back before taking a 2nd shot from an AC 20. Let alone an AC 10 at least gave the Urbie a /margin/ of safety, could fire down the corridor. Being in range for an AC 20 puts you into Medium Laser range which means... completely hosed.

In the end the Urbanmech seriously just can't compete. Drop to a large laser and upgrade the engine with more jump jets, get it to at least 4/6, but when an ATLAS can run you down, you're toast. It's just spam in a can.

[Morashtak]

Arikiel, on 14 May 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

An 80 ton Mech with basic engines at speed 4 has 42.5 tons left after engines and basic components. At speed 5 it only has 12.5 tons left. Sure let's sacrifice 30 tons of weapons, armor, heat sinks, etc for 1 point of speed. That sounds reasonable.

This is where I, and probably a few more, are coming from when we suggest that due to using these new computerized boxes of fairy dust and blue smoke we could do away with all this 3/5, 4/7, 5/8, 6/9, etc, nonsense.

If I want to put a 325 in a 50 ton Mech the code should be able to calculate the top speed even if it's not evenly divisible.

OT: Charger. wait... we Steiners like scouts that weigh more than 60 tons. i forgot. silly me.

[Victor Morson]

Der Kommissar, on 14 May 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Rear lasers are good for dissuading backbiters. The Dragon's not great, but it's acceptable, particularly when you remember that 5/8 60-tonners are just buff medium mechs. The Dragon with the PPC is nasty business.

Maybe in novelizations where they don't understand the game mechanics, but a single medium laser has never dissuaded anybody, anywhere, ever in the game.

And no, the Dragon (In particular with the AC2) isn't acceptable. It's damage is horrendous, speed/armor be damned; it totally can't justify it's cost when it's being outdone in range and firepower by 40 tonners from the same era.

That said, the Grand Dragon is actually a decent 'mech. Not the best, mind you, but a massive improvement. I think it largely has to do with the fact that AC/5 and AC/2 are way too heavy for what they are more than a bad design in theory. The MWO Dragon should be fine since 1x AC/5 can just as easily equal 1x Gauss Rifle.

Kaanon, on 14 May 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Phoenix Hawk LAM.

LAMs are the black sheep of CBT, no question of that. I don't know if the Phoenix Hawk LAM fits the thread since it's about useless 'mechs rather than just ugly/stupid ones. You could make a good argument for the Wasp or Stinger LAM though, since they're terrible, terrible 'mechs and terrible Aerospace fighters, too. Two kinds of awful in one.

Edited by Victor Morson, 14 May 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Prosperity Park, on 14 May 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

My favorite part about this abomination is that it's literally Mecha-Streisand.

[Ryoken S]

I played MechWarrior 2 and 4 very often I would say my least favorite mech is the Kit fox in MechWarrior 2 and the Commando in
Mechwarrior 4. I also have a lingering dislike for humanoid mech designs, most of them prevailant in the Innersphere their weapons systems in Mechwarrior 4 tended to be all over the place and it was difficult using the space available with optimal effectiveness. Clan mechs and Innersphere omnimechs like the Black Knight on the other hand are incredibly Versatile and fun to use. My Favorite is the Vulture.

[Victor Morson]

Christopher Dayson, on 14 May 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Charger with a full move double punch was scary. Run up, unload small lasers, double punch, or kick if trying to cripple or kill a smaller mech... Not the best design I will fully admit, but 80 tons is a lot of potential and at least it didn't look like a trash can.

I agree strongly on this one. The thing about the Charger is you could have nearly three of them for the same BV of an Atlas. It definitely doesn't win the ton-for-ton war, but it's extremely cheap for what it is, a gimmicky assault recon 'mech and it does extremely well living up to it's name and charging people.

Of course, the much mentioned alternate variants are actually pretty awesome, too.

[FinnMcKool]

Madcat

[LanceKoth]

Urbanmech. How usless to be that slow. . . might as well just paint a target on the thing

[Felicitatem Parco]

LanceKoth, on 14 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Urbanmech. How usless to be that slow. . .

UM-R60LG

[Sassori]

Prosperity Park, on 14 May 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

UM-R60LG

Sooo you're slow, and still can't withdraw at any speed to stop mechs from eating you as you have even /less/ armor.

Gauss Rifle, while awesome, is not the answer to everything.

[Solis Obscuri]

Christopher Dayson, on 14 May 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

A) There's not an urbanmech with an Ultra AC 20 (There is one with an ultra AC10 however), let alone the fact that it has 2/3 movement and it isn't popping out of anywhere fast nor returning to where it was fast.

B.) In an urban setting you can move pretty freely so long as you don't try to run and turn especially multiple times, this is why jump jets are godlike in a city, awesome mobility, facing change, and no slip sliding other than possibly landing in rough terrain.

C) Good Armor? For real? It has 6 tons of armor. 6. Without the speed to avoid hits it's toast. Center torso has a whopping /11/ armor, R/L Torso have 8. AC 10 ammo is in the right torso, two medium laser hits and it's done. It'd be better served with a single large laser (Same range as an AC 10, slightly less damage 8 vs 10, and still no heat issues) By yanking the AC 10 for a Large Laser you free up 8 tons for more movement, more weaponry, more heat sinks, with the /SAME/ armor.

Result: Urbanmech is garbage in every way. Ballistics just don't work on a mech that size and to think that it's good is just... it boggles the mind.

I think the two shots is a minimum after you fail a piloting skill role for massive critical damage and 20+ damage/round from being cornholed with an AC/20, but maybe get ready and are able to get up and maneuver away after the next turn.

And 6.5 tons is the max a 30 ton chassis can carry, soo...

Not to mention the number of people with boners over the Hatchetman, and that's crap stacked 45 tons high, and still... wait for it... just 6.5 tons of armor.

The Urbie's still utterly useless in any kind of open terrain, but in close confines they are nasty for their weight/BV.

Prosperity Park, on 14 May 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

The Protomechs are indeed abominations. I don't think I can top that...

[LanceKoth]

Prosperity Park, on 14 May 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

UM-R60LG

A target that shoots back? Basically a very slow moving turret?

[Felicitatem Parco]

LanceKoth, on 14 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

A target that shoots back? Basically a very slow moving turret?

A slow-moving Gauss Turret with JumpJets and no less armor than a heavier Jenner.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Shadowhawk-2H. Now before you start foaming at the mouth and crying foul, let me state that I am a Shadowhawk fan. However...

I firmly believe that it is an exercise in how not to build a 'Mech.

Before I get into why I think the Shadowhawk is bad, let's look at the redeeming aspects of the two poll choices.

Urbanmech: Cheap. Great firepower for its tonnage. Very well armored for its tonnage. Heat neutral. Fills a role, and fills it well.

Charger: What a great 'Mech for physicals. Scores low for cost efficiency and firepower, yeah. Not too great in the armor department either. But when you absolutely, positively need to deliver 16pt kicks in a 5/8 'Mech, accept no substitutes. Also, some of the variants are great. Worth mentioning: Without the Charger, we'd never have the Hatamoto-Chi.

Now back to the Shadowhawk. It's a 55 tonner that moves 5/8. That's fine, as long as it makes wise choices for its limited weapon space. The Wolverine does. The Griffin does. The Shadowhawk does not. The AC/5 is the running joke of Battletech. The tonnage that goes into the LRM-5 would be better served by increasing the rating of the SRM rack. The ML is okay, but there's only one. People call it a generalist design. It's not. None of the weapons are particularly well-suited to taking out infantry or tanks, as both missile systems only have 1 ton of ammunition. People will say that it's a decent ranged 'Mech. Compared to the Griffin, it's a joke.

Now let's get into the real sins of the Shadowhawk. Right off the bat, it only jumps 3 hexes. That's a cardinal sin for a 5/8 medium. Secondly, you could claim that it's heat neutral. Well that's fine and dandy, but it's TOO heat neutral. You could fire everything, jump, and be coated in burning inferno jelly and still not overheat. Seeing as it's only a jump of 3, who cares about sinking that heat. Furthermore, the tonnage that goes into making it so heat neutral would be better served with more weapons.

People might say "Oh, but the 2Hb is nice!" or "Oh, but the 5M or (insert other variant here) is nice!" And you might be right. But compared to their peers, they are terrible.

Tackling the 2Hb first, there is no worse royal 'Mech. Let that sink in for a minute. The Royal SLDF 'Mechs - best in the business at kicking wholesale ***, min-maxed to perfection and the Shadowhawk Royal still can't get it quite right.

Looking at the 3049+ variants, they're nice compared to the old Shad, but still pale in comparison to their similar-timeline peers. Hell, I'll take a standard GRF-1N over the Shad-5M any day of the week.

Might it find a place with the different mechanics of MWO? Perhaps. I'm not holding my breath for it though.

Still love the little ******. But sorry, it sucks.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 14 May 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[SOG66]

Charger at least has enough armor to close with a target and keep it busy, I have used a charger as a bruiser to keep other mechs at a distance. You can't ignore it due to it's size and a couple of kicks to the backside is a game breaker. The armour is still thin but a mech that size running at you is a big wrecking ball.

Urbie is a big a$$ target that unless you are in city or close confines is a deadman.

[Deathz Jester]

This thing, kill it with fire, I hate it. Its like a mini loki/thor ******* offspring that has downsyndrome. aka hellspawn.

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 14 May 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Bolo Warden]

Based upon my style of play, the Urban mech would probably be one of my worst mechs. But if the situation demanded it, I'm sure I could find an effective way to put it to use.

[Felicitatem Parco]

"I don't always pilot an UrbanMech, but when I do, I pilot effectively."

-Bolo Warden, The Most Interesting n00B in the World.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 14 May 2012 - 07:03 PM.