108 replies to this topic

[Marineballer]

Hey dear staff,

I've just finished reading the Q&A from Garth involving one question about the implementation of DHS with an overall 2.0 heat dissipation capacity, whereby Garth just said "No". It has come to my understanding that PGI hs the false impression that DHS have to be actually balanced against SHS. This is technically and canonically false. DHS have no drawbacks compared to SHS over the fact that they take up 3 crit slots and are expensive (make them expensive as hell if you like). They were intended not as an alternative to SHS but as a complete replacement, making SHS nearly obsolete. The SHS of 3055 are just remains of the lostech age, used by units without the supplies or enough funds to actually afford them.

Just looking at the designation DOUBLE heatsink points out the paradox to give them a heat dissipation ability of 1.4 instead of 2.0 (double, you know..), leading to community designation like "crappy heatsinks" etc.

It's very admireable that PGI tries to give us a good balancing but this misunderstanding of what DHS represents in the lore and technical aspects of the MW/BT franchise has to be cleared out. They are replacements for the old heatsinks, so make them ultra expensive to balance things out, stating that as of 3049 supply of this high tech was scarce or whatnot. But DON'T nerf them this way, which is unlogical and just false from the background perspective. You wouldn't try to nerf a Ferrari to balance things with a Prius, would you? The PRICE balances it, because not everyone can afford a Ferrari. I understand you have to alter much of the technical details of the background to fit them into a computer game but don't break them completely apart on the way.
If we look to the introduction of clantech in the future then there will be balancing problems again. The Innersphere need DHS (2.0) to fight against the clans with their superior technology. Thats why they developed DHS as an replacement to SHS.
DHS > SHS in nearly every aspect is the truth. Let the ppl pay up for this advantage ( In C-Bills please! but don't let the DoubleHS in the current state of "nearly double heatsinks", which makes no sense. Really. No.

Please bring this to someones attention. Most guys of our unit (90 ppl) think the same way. We know that their are more important issues like netcode, hitbox detection, more content and so on. But think about and "test week".

Keep up the pace! I like your work and I'm happy to have a new Mechwarrior title since more then 10 years. Thank you for that.
Phase 3 MM gogogogogo!

Sincerely yours,
Marineballer
CO 2nd company 12th Donegal Guards

Edited by Marineballer, 08 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[focuspark]

Good lord another thread on this topic. get over it people DHS *need* to be comparable to SHS for there to be balance. They are *not* a straight upgrade. Get over it.

Devs, do ever regret using the existing IP of BT/MW? I know I would.

[Marineballer]

DHS dont need to be comparable to SHS.
Thats the point,. When the clans arrive then we will be stomped.
They are a expensive uprage. Did you read the text?

[focuspark]

Marineballer, on 08 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

DHS dont need to be comparable to SHS.
Thats the point,. When the clans arrive then we will be stomped.
They are a expensive uprage. Did you read the text?

Yup I read it and you're still wrong. Clan tech will be better than IS tech, we all know that but that will be brought into the game play and balanced some how. I highly doubt Clan tech will match CBT rules.

[Deadoon]

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Good lord another thread on this topic. get over it people DHS *need* to be comparable to SHS for there to be balance. They are *not* a straight upgrade. Get over it.

Devs, do ever regret using the existing IP of BT/MW? I know I would.

Heatsinks are 2022 tech in BT, doubles are 2567
Double heasinks have the bulk drawback and cannot be put into legs.


How do you suggest they balance clan tech? It is smaller lighter and longer range with the same heat cost, their double heatsinks only use 2 slots for same effect, their xl engines require you to destroy BOTH side torsos if you don't destory the center and they can mount any weapon or device anywhere they have empty space.

You want an ecm? 1 slot 1 ton, You want some Erppc? 2 slots 6 tons, 15 damage, same heat. You want a gauss? 6 losts 13 tons. Case? built into the mech itself, no slots no weight, beagle 1 slot 1 ton. Endo steel 7 slots, ferro? 7 slots and gives you a full 20% more armor rather than 12%.

Get the idea, if they implement clan tech properly, we will have a major problem. We will be unable to fight their overpowered mechs without proper star league technology. They are using enhanced ****.

Double heatsinks are upgrades with drawbacks. They cannot fit into; legs center or head and they only provide 2/3 heat dissipation for their size when compared to singles. Clan doubles have only 1 downside, they cannot fit into the head.

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Yup I read it and you're still wrong. Clan tech will be better than IS tech, we all know that but that will be brought into the game play and balanced some how. I highly doubt Clan tech will match CBT rules.

CLANS ARE OP NERF PLOX.
THE GUARDIAN SYSTEM IS FINE
DOUBLE HEATSINKS NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH SINGLES.

Aka, nerf what I don't like or cannot compete with.

Edited by Deadoon, 08 December 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[DivineEvil]

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Good lord another thread on this topic. get over it people DHS *need* to be comparable to SHS for there to be balance. They are *not* a straight upgrade. Get over it.

Devs, do ever regret using the existing IP of BT/MW? I know I would.

I think that as a priority, DHS must be a DHS! I'm forced to completely agree to the OP's point of view. Reduce the critical space for lighter mechs, make their structure components take relatively more slots, make DHS easier to knock out of order, or make them more expensive. Anything will work, but making double heat sinks to provide only 40% bonus HDR for 200% extra crit space by paying about a 20-30% of a stock mech's price is a plain ******** shortcut solution. By making DHS comparable with SHS, PGI made Energy build incomparable with Ballistic based variants. PPC's are useless by that very reason - not even the most heavy Mech with DHS can manage multiple PPCs or an array of Heavy Lasers. AC Brawlers and Gauss snipers are dominating the game right now, and Energy weapons are used just for secondary ****** weapons, when ammunition is depleted.

We're here not just to get over stuff. You can get over everything you want, if that's your style.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 December 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[focuspark]

Yeah, for all your whining and complaining DHS as in CBT are OP. You know this, this is why you want them so bad.

I use DHS on some mech, not on others BECAUSE they are balanced and it's an honest choice. I do not have problems with heat because I have clue on how to manage heat levels.

You are just going to have to get over it.

As for Clan tech, yeah it'll be better than IS tech, that's not to say PGI won't find a creative way to balance it against IS tech. If they don't then IS tech may as well be removed from the game because nobody will use it.

[DivineEvil]

DHS is not a question of choice and they never been. They are toptech that is used by those, who can afford the expenses.

Balancing the ClanTech any way will be met with severe refusal among the MW fans, since it will be a pure decline of their natural advantage over Inner Sphere. MWO will be forgotten, and PGI would likely end up with no MC purchaces, until they redo it.

In all MMO games, there's thousand of individual items or features, that are specifically created for lower-tier players. There's nothing wierd or unbalanced in it, and nobody cares about them being not used by more experienced players, that can afford them.

We don't want overpowered stuff back. We want a solution, that doesn't turns chunk of gold into mound of dirt.

[focuspark]

If this were CBT/TT I'd agree that DHS were a clean upgrade path BUT this is *not* CBT/TT. You're going to have to learn to live with that. Um kay?

[DivineEvil]

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

If this were CBT/TT I'd agree that DHS were a clean upgrade path BUT this is *not* CBT/TT. You're going to have to learn to live with that. Um kay?

I'm not relied to any of those. I've played all MW games and there DHS were the substantial upgrade for your mech, that allowed to use heavy Energy weapons on equal terms (energy lower DPS versus Ballistic limited munitions). And it not limited to the TT, it is a general idea of the DHS in the universe itself.

Besides, this is not actually a canon problem. This is a major game balance issue. The actual reason standing behind Gausscats and ACats - even 2 PPCs are unbearable heat fatigue, and its easier to cram ballistics into K2 and deal with strictly limited ammo and reduced armor rating, rather than using PPC's that deal 50% less damage and overheats you in three volleys. If DHS would allow these weapons to at least stand near in effective damage potential, that would not be such a popular shift off the commonn sense.

And no, unlike you, I'm here to affect the game, not to simply watch it transform into a lump of illogical mess.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 December 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[focuspark]

LOL. I've posted dozens of constructive suggestions for the game that aren't just "somebody else did it differently, you suck and need to be like them".

That said, I run a CAT-K2 with 2xPPC + 2xLL and I manage my heat just fine thanks. DHS would great as is and they're a honest to goodness trade off with SHS because I've actually sat there thinking "crap... which one should I go for?" which means it is working.

So long as it's a non-decision to go for DHS, they are unbalanced. This is what you want which means you do not understand how balance and MMO games work.

Either way, this discussion is moot. The data will determine PGIGP's final evaluation of DHS. Pretty much nothing you say or do should affect that out come at this point.

[DivineEvil]

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

LOL. I've posted dozens of constructive suggestions for the game that aren't just "somebody else did it differently, you suck and need to be like them".

Me too. And I see the DHS decision as "You did it wrong, it's weird, and you must do it the other way".

Quote

That said, I run a CAT-K2 with 2xPPC + 2xLL and I manage my heat just fine thanks. DHS would great as is and they're a honest to goodness trade off with SHS because I've actually sat there thinking "crap... which one should I go for?" which means it is working.

"Which should I go for" moment can be achieved several ways. There's always multiple options to make 2 not too much better than 1, other than just making 1+1=1.4. It's cheap shortcut solution, it is temporary and must be presented and viewed as such. If it's a final decision, then it must be pointed at on a regular basis. PPC k2 can be managed, but it doesn't places it anywhere near the niche it is supposed to be, just as CTF-1X, HBK-4P and all Awesome variants in general - mechs specifically constructed for heavy Energy build, all of which are simply not used beyond Trial-mech AFK farming. Currently DHS are more beneficial upgrade for heavy-Ballistic variants, since it allows to manage their heat with Engine heatsinks alone and using the free crit slots and weight for bulky weapons and consistent ammo supplies. Energy-based variants cannot handle anything but regular Medium lasers, or forced to hide behind their Ballistic-focused cousins to deal the majority of damage.

Quote

So long as it's a non-decision to go for DHS, they are unbalanced. This is what you want which means you do not understand how balance and MMO games work.

<sarcasm mode on>Oh yeah, so guys we here we have a "noob dagger" and an "average longsword". Noob dagger is given by default, and longsword worth the 20% of the full plate mail, but deals double the damage, though it has it drawbacks of slowing the wielder and easier to get disarmed. That crap offends the noobs, so lets just make it deal little more damage. So let's reduce it's damage by 60%. That will make people think what is better. Who cares about those, who spends those money, thinking it would actually deal double damage, right?<sarcasm mode off>

You know, I've played MMOs of all genres around in 7 years straight and managed some game systems and custom game modules, and yes, that gave me a decent understanding of logically competent decisions, and turning 1+1=2 into 1+1=1.4 is by far not the best of them.

You, at the same time, doing nothing but suggesting me to "live up with the thing going", with practically worthless argumentation, seriously believeing, that spending a value of in-game currency equal to purchace of 5 heavy weapons on an equal alternative is fine, seems to lack any idea about balancing anything whasoever.

Quote

Either way, this discussion is moot. The data will determine PGIGP's final evaluation of DHS. Pretty much nothing you say or do should affect that out come at this point.

PGI just need to openly determine the alternative solution for the problem. And yes, many things we all say here on the forums has an effect on PGI actions, not only some "data". That's why it is Beta. Besides, data is all over the place. Energy weapons are subpar, and theres no way to bring them to the adequate level with current conditions. Nobody is using heavy and assault mechs with heavy Energy preference, since they can't deal significant damage struggling with extreme overheat. Selection for an average player lies between multiple missile or ballistic layouts, where missiles are easier to use but also easier to counter. It's easier to pay for expensive Ballistics one time or regularly pay for rearm bills on Missiles, than purchasing the most expensive upgrade and quite expensive Energy weapons that simply doesn't work.

And yes, I have the full right to affect the decisions of the game that is still in development, as I have paid my money for it even before it become Open. I'm a Beta tester, and will repeat it in every similar threads or polls if that might change the situation, and no random member's opinion will affect that in any way.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 December 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[MadPanda]

Marineballer, on 08 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Hey dear staff,

I've just finished reading the Q&A from Garth involving one question about the implementation of DHS with an overall 2.0 heat dissipation capacity, whereby Garth just said "No".

Date **** much? Gets a clear No, not satisfied with it, keeps pressing on. You are a real menace. No means No. Learn to respect it.

[Nightfangs]

Marineballer, on 08 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Hey dear staff,

I've just finished reading the Q&A from Garth involving one question about the implementation of DHS with an overall 2.0 heat dissipation capacity, whereby Garth just said "No". It has come to my understanding that PGI hs the false impression that DHS have to be actually balanced against SHS. This is technically and canonically false. DHS have no drawbacks compared to SHS over the fact that they take up 3 crit slots and are expensive (make them expensive as hell if you like). They were intended not as an alternative to SHS but as a complete replacement, making SHS nearly obsolete. The SHS of 3055 are just remains of the lostech age, used by units without the supplies or enough funds to actually afford them.

Just looking at the designation DOUBLE heatsink points out the paradox to give them a heat dissipation ability of 1.4 instead of 2.0 (double, you know..), leading to community designation like "crappy heatsinks" etc.

It's very admireable that PGI tries to give us a good balancing but this misunderstanding of what DHS represents in the lore and technical aspects of the MW/BT franchise has to be cleared out. They are replacements for the old heatsinks, so make them ultra expensive to balance things out, stating that as of 3049 supply of this high tech was scarce or whatnot. But DON'T nerf them this way, which is unlogical and just false from the background perspective. You wouldn't try to nerf a Ferrari to balance things with a Prius, would you? The PRICE balances it, because not everyone can afford a Ferrari. I understand you have to alter much of the technical details of the background to fit them into a computer game but don't break them completely apart on the way.
If we look to the introduction of clantech in the future then there will be balancing problems again. The Innersphere need DHS (2.0) to fight against the clans with their superior technology. Thats why they developed DHS as an replacement to SHS.
DHS > SHS in nearly every aspect is the truth. Let the ppl pay up for this advantage ( In C-Bills please! but don't let the DoubleHS in the current state of "nearly double heatsinks", which makes no sense. Really. No.

Please bring this to someones attention. Most guys of our unit (90 ppl) think the same way. We know that their are more important issues like netcode, hitbox detection, more content and so on. But think about and "test week".

Keep up the pace! I like your work and I'm happy to have a new Mechwarrior title since more then 10 years. Thank you for that.
Phase 3 MM gogogogogo!

Sincerely yours,
Marineballer
CO 2nd company 12th Donegal Guards

Full agree!
It's sad that PGI doesn't see that, but it's very very sad that even some of "us" defend that strange 1.4-DHS idea!
What's the point in balancing things that were never meant to be equal?
If they keep on bending the rules to fit some short-term goal, they will produce more problems in the future than the fix.
Think long-term!
If the clans will be introduced one day, we will need a working balance system like BV.
Any small tweaks like with the DHS will cost us dearly then.
If you intruduce another, far advanced tech level into the game, the whole twisted "equalized" system will break apart.

[Nightfangs]

MadPanda, on 08 December 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Date **** much? Gets a clear No, not satisfied with it, keeps pressing on. You are a real menace. No means No. Learn to respect it.

Yeah, that's the problem in my oppinion.
We are ignored until we give up, and then PGI claims we agree with the changes because we don't criticize any more.
How is not voicing your fears a good way to go?
Should we let the potential new players out there decide by themselves?
Will it make our game that much better when the clans are intruduced in a year, the balance is still broken and the botching starts all over again?

[Raeven]

focuspark, on 08 December 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Yeah, for all your whining and complaining DHS as in CBT are OP. You know this, this is why you want them so bad.

I use DHS on some mech, not on others BECAUSE they are balanced and it's an honest choice. I do not have problems with heat because I have clue on how to manage heat levels.

You'd make the same decision regardless of DHS dissipation value. DHS, even gimped, are a better choice than SHS in all cases except 'Mechs that don't have the space for DHS...which is a problem for those Chassis regardless of the DHS value.

[Shroomicide]

I think that a great solution would be increasing the number of Critical Slots in larger mechs... Not, say, tied to hardpoints (As in an Atlas could potentially mount dual Gauss), but in less important areas, like legs. Or even add "heatsink hardpoints" for those, like the XL engines do. That way a large mech could still utilize hardpoints effectively AND use DHS without filling up every single slot.

[Brandeis]

Shroomicide, on 08 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I think that a great solution would be increasing the number of Critical Slots in larger mechs... Not, say, tied to hardpoints (As in an Atlas could potentially mount dual Gauss), but in less important areas, like legs. Or even add "heatsink hardpoints" for those, like the XL engines do. That way a large mech could still utilize hardpoints effectively AND use DHS without filling up every single slot.

I don't like this idea very much, hard points were one of the major balancing things in MWO, it's why you don't have some outrageous builds. You either take more tons, or you take more space.

That said, I do think the heat sink issue needs to be reevaluated. From what me and a few others have gathered, the heat sinks are rather close to being on par with what you might have according to tabletop rules, however weapons, energy weapons especially, seem to be generating much more heat than they should be.

[Shroomicide]

Brandeis, on 08 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I don't like this idea very much, hard points were one of the major balancing things in MWO, it's why you don't have some outrageous builds. You either take more tons, or you take more space.

It's true, but at the moment any light mech can have every upgrade (including XL engines) and still use all hardpoints. I don't think there should be a big change, but right now it's almost twice as heat efficient to use SHS. It's difficult for an Assault mech (which is about 3-4 times larger, though I'm not sure if it's an increase in space such as real life larger vehicles, or if all components take up 3-4 times the space) to field more powerful energy weapons when DHS aren't an option. I'm just saying upgrades should be more viable with larger mechs at the very least.

[Brandeis]

Shroomicide, on 08 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

It's true, but at the moment any light mech can have every upgrade (including XL engines) and still use all hardpoints. I don't think there should be a big change, but right now it's almost twice as heat efficient to use SHS. It's difficult for an Assault mech (which is about 3-4 times larger, though I'm not sure if it's an increase in space such as real life larger vehicles, or if all components take up 3-4 times the space) to field more powerful energy weapons when DHS aren't an option. I'm just saying upgrades should be more viable with larger mechs at the very least.

Well, actually it's not. It's 40% more efficient. With only 10 double heat sinks, a light mech with 4 medium lasers should be able to alpha strike at all times, and have more than enough cooling to never overheat, while it WILL over heat if those are singles. However, if you try that build in MWO, you'll quickly overheat and shutdown. Heat with energy weapons is an issue that has been brought up in several threads, and I do believe it warrants being looked at.

As far as being able to utilize all hard points in a light mech vs a heavy...I flat out think the 'hard point' idea is stupid, but then I prefer the tabletop where you can slot whatever you want wherever you want as long as your GM allows it and you followed the weight to crit-slot restrictions. There were no rules that said a Jenner couldn't have an AC5 instead of a medium laser, and no rule that said you were only limited to 6 lasers on a JR7-F.

Edited by Brandeis, 08 December 2012 - 05:18 PM.