211 replies to this topic

[Dalfsson]

it wasn't the clans that ruined the game. that started with the lvl 3 munchkin mechs,.and what really turned the game to suckage was dark ages.

Yu Kigono, on 16 May 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

You seem to be reading far more into my posts than is actually there. My initial response was merely due to the fact that I often see the attitude of, "Nothing after 3025 matters." from "Old School" folks who still think the Clans are the new thing that ruined the game.

I merely assumed that was what you were doing. It seems my assumption was incorrect, and for that I apologize.

Anyway, I agree with you that there are more than enough mechs that are available in this time period, as was the main point of my initial post.

[Storm McIntyre]

S3dition, on 15 May 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Do I need to quote for the 1000th time that Clan mechs will not be in this game? Really? I guess 1001.

The game takes place in 3049. No clan. No clan mechs. No clan tech, no clan invasion, no bondsmen, and no enhanced imaging.

The devs aren't going to waste valuable development time on material that won't be in the game for at least another year. Sorry, bubble bursts, life goes on.

And yes, there is a reason to not use those designs. It involves copyrights, hiring a talented artist, conformity, and butter. I'll let you figure out how those fit together in game design.

Ummm... butter?


On second thought, if I have to ask, I probably don't wanna know....

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

The ReSeen of Project Phoenix are AWFUL, the overwhelming majority of thier ReDesigns make me sick, as they show so little taste as it is only possible, not to mention what a tiny hint of reseblance they saved from the original designs.
I say NO to ProjectPhoenix ReSeens. Better have none of the Unseen, than see a good name sticked to the abomination.

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 16 May 2012 - 03:37 AM.

[Storm McIntyre]

If there is no legal issue regarding the reseen, and FD gets to give them the once over as only he can, then, yes I would love to see these mechs in the game. As another poster noted earlier there are serious holes in the 70 to 75 weight class that can only be effectively filled by the reseen.

And.... buttering an LRM tube? My tech would have me committted....

[Toothman]

I haven't seen all of the reseen but if they are as wrong as the couple posted in this thread I have to go with leave them out. Giving an unseen name to some not related drawing is not what most of us are looking for. Plenty of other designs to play with.

[WraithTR1]

From what I understood was Harmony Gold had a problem with certain mechs and so to make them happy FASA pulled all mechs that Harmony Gold had a right to and also pulled any mechs that were done by any outside source, including the second line clan mechs and IIC versions found in TRO 3055, to avoid any further issues.
There's no reason not to use the designs from Project Phoenix as they are a complete redesign to introduce all the unseen mechs back into the game. I would love to see these redone as I think around 90% of them look horrible, although the Ost series doesn't look to bad.
I could see a problem using the Reseen as they have worked something out with the owners of the designs and have permission to use the original artwork. The seven Reseen designs are: Locust, Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Scorpion, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, and Battlemaster. Problem being is if the agreement ends then these mechs would need to go.
The rest of the Unseen we will probably never see again in any official Battletech product.

[Strum Wealh]

As far as the Unseen, there is the issue of "derivative works".

Consider the Marauder, and compare:

1.) the original "unseen" design (Zentradi Glaug-class Officers' Battlepod, Super Dimension Fortress Macross)


2.) FD's illustration (posted earlier in the thread, and elsewhere on the forum)


3.) the "reseen" design (Project Phoenix)


As much as I would like to have the original design or something like the FD design above in MWO, the former-most (barring some as-yet-unheard-of legal wrangling on PGI's part) would likely cause too much legal trouble to be worth it, and the second is (in my not-lawyer opinion) close enough to the first to be... dangerous.

IMO, designs based more on the Reseen designs than on the original Unseen designs are probably the best bet for the inclusion of the original BattleMechs.
Personally, I'm okay with that so long as whatever design is used retains the "spirit" of the parent Unseen design as well or better than the corresponding Reseen design - that is, that whatever model bears the Marauder name in MWO "feels like a Marauder".

Quote

Originally intended as a heavy attack/support 'Mech, the addition of sophisticated Dalban Micronics comgear enabled the Marauder to function as a command vehicle in areas of heavy fighting. It continues so today, with Marauders often appearing in command lances.

-----

In addition to its command duties, the MAD-3R operates as a dangerous heavy-attack vehicle, outclassed only by 'Mechs such as the Stalker and the rare BattleMaster. Capable of shooting lighter 'Mechs to pieces and battling hand-to-hand with more heavily armored opponents, the Marauder is usually deployed in a heavy shock unit, along with Warhammers and Thunderbolts. Its PPC and autocannon also enable the 'Mech to lay down a long-range barrage before actual combat.

[Sougokami]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 16 May 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

The ReSeen of Project Phoenix are AWFUL, the overwhelming majority of thier ReDesigns make me sick, as they show so little taste as it is only possible, not to mention what a tiny hint of reseblance they saved from the original designs.
I say NO to ProjectPhoenix ReSeens. Better have none of the Unseen, than see a good name sticked to the abomination.

I agree on some of the mechs. However I have to strongly DISAGREE on others. The Ost series, Archer, Marauder, Battlemaster, and Marauder II all come to mind. Sorry, flame away, but I honestly think the reseen artwork is better on these. For things like the Warhammer, I know it's been covered before in this thread, but why not do MWO's own take on the reseen, and try to make something that looks more like the originals? Btw, the locust is no longer unseen, so that one can already occur as-is in the future.

[Wolf Hreda]

Hawkeye 72, on 15 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

My only complaint with the reseen is that this:


is not this



While I like the redesign, the Marauder is imprinted in my brain as the first image, and the second one will feel like a cheap knock-off any time I see it. Nothing against the design, as I quite like it (reminds me of a Stone Rhino on slim-fast). But I am partial to the original, regardless of its origins

At the very least, they should have kept the bulky weapon pods on the arms. As I recall in the books, those were used more than once to smash the crap out of things. Not so with the Reseen design. You might break a laser.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

I say we make Harmony Gold an offer they can't refuse!...



If the fanbase got together and presented Harmony Gold a deal or some form of sincere and indisbutable trade or persuasive incentive to free up the rights to PGI so we can get our beloved mechs back.../sigh.

<goes to play the lottery>

[WraithTR1]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 16 May 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

I say we make Harmony Gold an offer they can't refuse!...



If the fanbase got together and presented Harmony Gold a deal or some form of sincere and indisbutable trade or persuasive incentive to free up the rights to PGI so we can get our beloved mechs back.../sigh.

<goes to play the lottery>

We could offer to Roshambo for the rights, we as the community goes first.

[Wolf Hreda]

Out of all the Reseen, the only ones I can truly stomach are the Griffin, and the Rifleman. The Griffin actually looks similar enough not to raise my gorge, and the Rifleman actually kinda looks badass, although those arms look suspiciously like an autocannon we won't have for years to come. Closely following those is my beloved Archer, which didn't suffer too horrifically at the hands of copyright dispute. However, I still prefer my Unseen artwork. And speaking of my beloved, the wretched blasphemy that they named the Phoenix Hawk should never be seen by human eyes again. Unfortunately, the Ost series went from laughably terrible looking, to laughably terrible looking. It just doesn't seem fair.

[wwiiogre]

Let FD or Shimmering Sword redo these, as Thomas Hogarth stated earlier. The Heavy Mech class from 60 tons to 75 tons is the most hard hit because of the loss of the Unseens. I really could care less about the art work. But the actual roles those mechs played and the weapon layouts are more important than anything else. They are also the most prevalent mechs in the BT universe. Period. To not have them is a serious role warfare mistake.

The sooner we start throwing money at PGI, the better. Then they can start cranking out the artwork, 3D modeling and give us all the mechs we need.

Chris

[Trevnor]

S3dition, on 16 May 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Tell me, have you ever produce a 3d model? Textured it? Rigged it? Weighted it? Used matrix and vector programming? I have. Well, to be fair, did a bit of the modeling. Matrix and vector programming are big in 2d games, but only a snuffle when constructing a 3d game (especially with physics).

Let me tell you, it's a pain. You need to use projection to make a perfect copy, otherwise it's pretty much impossible to make a perfect copy. That means you need a front, top, and bottom in perfect proportions speed up the production and accuracy of 3d models.

Then you move into weighting, rigging, and animation In similar models, you can reuse many of the same animations. If those models begin to differ, you need to start from scratch. Animations aren't easy to get right, and key frames can't just be regenerated with the full animation in tow.

Yes, yes I have. Admittedly, I didn't go into modeling as my career choice, but I have done all that. And yes, I agree with you, the time and cost of doing all this work is large. However, with any game studio, there is a different person doing each part of that process. Modelers, riggers, programmers, animators. All of those parts are handled by different people, to make the development process go faster. So, it's not as hard as you paint it out to be, but still a time consuming process.

So, it's not as huge as a job, if it was only one person making all the animations/models/rigs.

[Threat Doc]

Prosperity Park, on 15 May 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

The Mechs called "The Unseen" were originally drawn illegally, a copy of someone else's work, and so you're not allowsd to sell their original images anymore.

However, they have all been redrawn in the BattleTech product called Project Phoenix, and Flying Debris can design Concept Art for any Unseen Mech he wants to as long as he bases the concept art on the Project Phoenix redrawn images. So, therefore, there is no Legal reason to keep the redrawn Unseen Mechs out of MW:O since you can just use the new Project Phoenix imagery.

Big Sarge, customary of my normal outspoken responses, I will have to agree to disagree with you, respectfully. I want Alex' versions of the Unseens; I know the developers have devoted at least a little time to hashing out these 'Mechs, though they've likely yet to arrive at an answer. Most of the Project Phoenix Re-seens look like ****-poor anime copies of 'Mechs from OTHER series', and are ugly; this is especially true for my Wolverine... the new version looks like utter hell, and I don't believe I would drive it, unless Flying Debris, Shimmering Sword, Hayden, Ironhawk, or another of our magnificent artists in this community can do a one-off miracle with it.

For my part, let these herein mentioned rebuild the Unseens into something we can use -10% change is all you need-, and NOT the Reseens, and I'll drive that Wolverine. I know you've seen SS's Warhammer, which is a magnificent re-version of that Unseen, and I would love to see more work in that vein.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 16 May 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Storm McIntyre]

wwiiogre, on 16 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Let FD or Shimmering Sword redo these, as Thomas Hogarth stated earlier. The Heavy Mech class from 60 tons to 75 tons is the most hard hit because of the loss of the Unseens. I really could care less about the art work. But the actual roles those mechs played and the weapon layouts are more important than anything else. They are also the most prevalent mechs in the BT universe. Period. To not have them is a serious role warfare mistake.

The sooner we start throwing money at PGI, the better. Then they can start cranking out the artwork, 3D modeling and give us all the mechs we need.

Chris

Could not possibly agree with you more. Well said!

[Storm McIntyre]

Kay Wolf, on 16 May 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Big Sarge, customary of my normal outspoken responses, I will have to agree to disagree with you, respectfully. I want Alex' versions of the Unseens; I know the developers have devoted at least a little time to hashing out these 'Mechs, though they've likely yet to arrive at an answer. Most of the Project Phoenix Re-seens look like ****-poor anime copies of 'Mechs from OTHER series', and are ugly; this is especially true for my Wolverine... the new version looks like utter hell, and I don't believe I would drive it, unless Flying Debris, Shimmering Sword, Hayden, Ironhawk, or another of our magnificent artists in this community can do a one-off miracle with it.

For my part, let these herein mentioned rebuild the Unseens into something we can use -10% change is all you need-, and NOT the Reseens, and I'll drive that Wolverine. I know you've seen SS's Warhammer, which is a magnificent re-version of that Unseen, and I would love to see more work in that vein.

You and Chris are dead on with this line of thinking Kay. Would love to see any of this group apply their talents and then sit back and watch the magic happen..

[AdamBaines]

I'm always hoping when the Devs say they have a "Big" Announcement, that it will be in regards to this point :-) That they, some how, are able to do reboots of the Unseens without any legal troubles. Its my little dream I know won't come true....but its still my dream to stalk the Battlefield in a Unseen Battlemaster :-)

Either way this game will rock with or without them.

[Easy 8]

Here's the thing, Harmony Gold USA only has the distribution rights to the mecha from Macross, not all of the "unseen" or intellectual property rights for that matter. This leaves the ones from the Robotech:Defenders comic books published by Marvel and the models cast by Revell to be used; Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Scorpion and Goliath. FASA did get licensing permission from Takatoku Toys to use the likenesses of their products, but then the company tanked and was bought by Bandai. Also Studio Nue, who ACTUALLY owns the intelectual property rights (as do court rulings in Japan) states that Harmony Gold, USA does not own the intellectual property rights to any of the Macross mecha. Soo...Harmony Gold has no real legal basis for its lawsuit and the 1996 decision should be thrown out. Hell, it took them 6 years to get it, that says something right there. If Pirhana does want to use the Macross mecha, then they will have to take that up with Studio Nue, as for the other designs...who ever has the rights to Fang of the Sun Dougram.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Sougokami, on 16 May 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I agree on some of the mechs. However I have to strongly DISAGREE on others. The Ost series, Archer, Marauder, Battlemaster, and Marauder II all come to mind. Sorry, flame away, but I honestly think the reseen artwork is better on these.

Well, I guess I'll have to call it a matter of individual tastes then, as I cannot agree here. For me the ReSeen mechs you have named lack resemblance to the original ones.

Sougokami, on 16 May 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

why not do MWO's own take on the reseen, and try to make something that looks more like the originals? Btw, the locust is no longer unseen, so that one can already occur as-is in the future.

I agree on this one and hope it's what this matter will end up with.