211 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

Major Tom, on 15 May 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I don't understand the need to resurrect those mechs. The reason they hold a special place for me (and I suspect anyone else old enough to remember the original box set) is the original artwork. Having a redrawn design doesn't make make MWO better, it just sullies the nostalgia of the old mechs. I for one would rather they be left behind than be radically altered to circumvent litigation. Besides there are so many other mechs that could really use a facelift, have you seen the Vulcan.

My major problem with this is that it leaves huge holes in the heavy 'Mech lineup, particularly between the 70 and 75 tonners. Nothing that isn't reseen can come close to matching the operating regimes that they can.

Zakatak, on 15 May 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I would still kind of like the Marauder with the centerline AC/5. Just me?

Not just you, but I'd be very okay with it being offset if it meant getting a 'Mech that no not-reseen mech can match for loadout.

Gigaton, on 15 May 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

As William Petersen said, the original artwork (the unseen) are not legal, but the reseen are. The problem is that these things can change if Harmony and Catalyst do another round, which would affect MW:O too. So while they are legal now, I'm not sure I'd consider them entirely safe territory.

But barring that, I rather like some of the reseen. Like the Phoenix Hawk and the Marauder.

That wouldn't make much sense. The reseen have been around for years, have been on the covers of many, many publications, were used for Mechwarrior clickytech, and are currently purchasable through publications or minis. Furthermore, it is a reseen 'Mech that is the current 'iconic' 'Mech of BT, being plastered on the covers of two out of three of the main sourcebooks, as well as being the symbol of 'power user' in the official forums.

If there was a problem with the reseen, it would have surfaced by now.

[WarHammer LLTS]

Hell just put em in the store for people to buy then give 1/2 of the profit to the other guy so they dont feel cheated and everyone is happy! I want my mech

[DirePhoenix]

Prosperity Park, on 15 May 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Did you know that Project Phoenix was created specifically to reintroduce those Mechs into the BattleTech Universe in a legal way that satisfied the owners of the orginal artwork? That's why they did it: it allowed the legal reintroduction of all those Mechs. There is no legal challenge against using Project Phoenix Mech designs because they are already green-lit.

Did you know that there was no issue with the "Original Owners" of the artwork?

Both Harmony Gold AND FASA licensed the work from the Japanese artists. Apparently in Japan at the time, there were no laws about silly things like IP and exclusivity rights (which is probably why you see so many knock-off toys, comics, and cartoons from there). Now, if you want to be respectful, you don't just take stuff... you at least ask permission, which both companies did. And both were granted.

The issue was when Harmony Gold tried to claim exclusivity on the art (which wasn't even theirs to begin with) for their Americanized cartoon "Robotech", which was in itself an amalgamation of at least three different pre-existing Japanese works.

But this is neither here, nor there. As Bryan Ekman pointed out, there is no lawsuit with Harmony Gold holding up production.

[Evex]

There is a very big reason to not use the unseen/reseen battlemechs. The big legal challenge is going to come from Harmony Gold who own the copyrights to Macross/Robotech. Most of the designs on that list bear similarity to Zentrady, or even veritech designs. The marauder looks very similar to a zentrady captions battle pod, which its name escapes me. Even the wasp looks like a veritech right down to its change into a plane gimmic. The Devs have all ready had to deal with Harmony Gold, and I'm sure it was on this very same issue. You see copyright protects the owners of said copyright from being ripped off, or not getting acknowledgment for there work. Under the same laws there is a free use clause, which states that a person can't be sued if they use in the means of free realm. Examples: Fan Art, Fan fiction, Schools. Essentially anything that doesn't make a profit off it. Considering MW:O will have some sort of payment method, hence it would be making money off those designs if they were used. Harmony Gold has full legal rights to go after PGI, and Piranha even if any of the battle mechs bears a close resemblance to anything from Macross/Robotech.

[Gigaton]

Evex, on 15 May 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

There is a very big reason to not use the unseen/reseen battlemechs.

To clarify, this is the legal status of the reseen versions:

Quote

Hello,

yes, they are legal.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
BattleTech
Catalyst Game Labs

http://bg.battletech...ic,17454.0.html

[Thomas Hogarth]

Gigaton, on 15 May 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

To clarify, this is the legal status of the reseen versions:



http://bg.battletech...ic,17454.0.html

+1 internets. I was wondering if someone was going to post that.

[Hawkeye 72]

Unless any of you are lawyers who have seen the actual documents and lawsuits, I trust what I hear from PGI itself.

This topic really breaks my heart Prosperity. Every time I get so excited at the thought of jumping in a Warhammer or Battlemaster again. With an FD redesign you would think some of the classics would sneak back in. But then I remember custody battles over ownership/distribution rights are never pretty, and just assume some of the favorites will go back to limbo.

My stance on this is until we hear something, don't get your hopes up.

[Nav]

Iron Harlequin, on 15 May 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Well as I've tried to point out to people before, Go through the artwork, and take notice that the mechs dont look Identical to their original artwork designs.

I mean yes they're like 90-99% the same, but not identical. the devs put their own twist on it.

one example I like using is the MW:O design for the Centurion and the Classic Picture.

My point being, that they could probably put in any of the unseen and alter them with their own "Piranha Games" twist.

This.

I would love to see the Marauder, looking similar to the original, but with the level of reboot that the Catapult got. As long as it is still a resemblance of the Marauder but different enough to not cause legal contention.

The original arms and legs were too spindly. I really hope they are holding these unseen designs in reserve as a purchasable item after launch.

Edited by Nav, 16 May 2012 - 01:42 AM.

[Deathz Jester]

Remember how ugly MW4 catapult was



And for your amusement the Marauder featured in the Intro of a Battletech Sega Genesis game

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 15 May 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[Hawkeye 72]

My only complaint with the reseen is that this:


is not this



While I like the redesign, the Marauder is imprinted in my brain as the first image, and the second one will feel like a cheap knock-off any time I see it. Nothing against the design, as I quite like it (reminds me of a Stone Rhino on slim-fast). But I am partial to the original, regardless of its origins

Edited by Hawkeye 72, 15 May 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Hawkeye 72, on 15 May 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Unless any of you are lawyers who have seen the actual documents and lawsuits, I trust what I hear from PGI itself.

This topic really breaks my heart Prosperity. Every time I get so excited at the thought of jumping in a Warhammer or Battlemaster again. With an FD redesign you would think some of the classics would sneak back in. But then I remember custody battles over ownership/distribution rights are never pretty, and just assume some of the favorites will go back to limbo.

My stance on this is until we hear something, don't get your hopes up.

Well, right up there is pretty much the God of the IP saying the reseen are legal. Not sure how much more validation you want that than. Yes, I am saying that Herb is more familiar with the rulings than PGI. Sorry guys, not meant as a jab at all, just that Herb has been dealing with it for years and years and years....

Iron Harlequin, on 15 May 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Remember how ugly MW4 catapult was

Hate to break it to you, but that's is what the Catapult looked like in its second incarnation. MW4 actually did a pretty good job rendering it.

Hawkeye 72, on 15 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

My only complaint with the reseen is that this:
is not this
While I like the redesign, the Marauder is imprinted in my brain as the first image, and the second one will feel like a cheap knock-off any time I see it. Nothing against the design, as I quite like it (reminds me of a Stone Rhino on slim-fast). But I am partial to the original, regardless of its origins

Like I said, better to have the reseen than be left with huge holes in the heavy 'Mech lineup.

[Hawkeye 72]

Thomas Hogarth, on 15 May 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Well, right up there is pretty much the God of the IP saying the reseen are legal. Not sure how much more validation you want that than. Yes, I am saying that Herb is more familiar with the rulings than PGI. Sorry guys, not meant as a jab at all, just that Herb has been dealing with it for years and years and years...

Yeah I knew the Reseen were legal, especially when coming down from Herbert Beas. My comment was more in reference to the original "unseen" and who the actual rights owner is.

Edited by Hawkeye 72, 15 May 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[S3dition]

I usually don't throw a dog into a fight I didn't start, but...

Erase all clan mechs
Erase all mechs post 3049

For crap's sake, they have 1 concept artist and a limited development team. They might be doing the unseen, but give them time to work. I bet we'll see them when they're ready to be seen.

>_> Yeah, I went there.

[Hawkeye 72]

S3dition, on 15 May 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I usually don't throw a dog into a fight I didn't start, but...

For crap's sake, they have 1 concept artist and a limited development team. They might be doing the unseen, but give them time to work. I bet we'll see them when they're ready to be seen.

>_> Yeah, I went there.

This isn't a fight however. The thread is more in regards to the Reseen being legally eligible for a redesign and inclusion into the game. No one here is demanding the dev team get their act together and make this priority number one. Prosperity is just suggesting that we can have a reseen marauder redesign and lawsuits won't come flying through the door.

[Yu Kigono]

S3dition, on 15 May 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I usually don't throw a dog into a fight I didn't start, but...

Erase all clan mechs
Erase all mechs post 3049

For crap's sake, they have 1 concept artist and a limited development team. They might be doing the unseen, but give them time to work. I bet we'll see them when they're ready to be seen.

>_> Yeah, I went there.

For the love of god, quit living in the past, the clans were introduced 25 years ago. Get over it already.

Anyway, on topic: There is absolutely no legal reason for PGI to not use the Project Phoenix redesigns, or to design their own versions of the unseen mechs. Anyone telling you different doesn't know what they are talking about.

But there is one very important reason to include the unseen/reseen/whatever. PGI has made it a priority to stick as close to the lore as they can. The lore states that the unseen/reseen/whatever mechs are literally the most common mechs in the Battletech universe. Every single group in the game uses these mechs, unlike designs such as the Commando and the Dragon which are generally most common in one specific House. There is every upside and literally no downside in including these most common of mechs.

[S3dition]

Yu Kigono, on 15 May 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

For the love of god, quit living in the past, the clans were introduced 25 years ago. Get over it already.

Anyway, on topic: There is absolutely no legal reason for PGI to not use the Project Phoenix redesigns, or to design their own versions of the unseen mechs. Anyone telling you different doesn't know what they are talking about.

But there is one very important reason to include the unseen/reseen/whatever. PGI has made it a priority to stick as close to the lore as they can. The lore states that the unseen/reseen/whatever mechs are literally the most common mechs in the Battletech universe. Every single group in the game uses these mechs, unlike designs such as the Commando and the Dragon which are generally most common in one specific House. There is every upside and literally no downside in including these most common of mechs.

Do I need to quote for the 1000th time that Clan mechs will not be in this game? Really? I guess 1001.

The game takes place in 3049. No clan. No clan mechs. No clan tech, no clan invasion, no bondsmen, and no enhanced imaging.

The devs aren't going to waste valuable development time on material that won't be in the game for at least another year. Sorry, bubble bursts, life goes on.

And yes, there is a reason to not use those designs. It involves copyrights, hiring a talented artist, conformity, and butter. I'll let you figure out how those fit together in game design.

Edited by S3dition, 15 May 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[Yu Kigono]

S3dition, on 15 May 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Do I need to quote for the 1000th time that Clan mechs will not be in this game? Really? I guess 1001.

The game takes place in 3049. No clan. No clan mechs. No clan tech, no clan invasion, no bondsmen, and no enhanced imaging.

The devs aren't going to waste valuable development time on material that won't be in the game for at least another year. Sorry, bubble bursts, life goes on.

I never said anything about the Clans being in this game at launch. PGI has already stated that they will be in the game eventually. Perhaps it is you who should read more closely?

And anyway, I mentioned that this was off topic. Anything to say about the rest of my post?

Edited by Yu Kigono, 15 May 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Sassori]

I like the reseens, want to see what FD can do with them to make them look beefier and better. In most cases I like the reseen more than the originals.

[S3dition]

Since you're not grasping English, let me break it down:

S3dition, on 15 May 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I usually don't throw a dog into a fight I didn't start, but...

Erase all clan mechs
Erase all mechs post 3049

For crap's sake, they have 1 concept artist and a limited development team. They might be doing the unseen, but give them time to work. I bet we'll see them when they're ready to be seen.

>_> Yeah, I went there.

Erase all clan mechs - they aren't doing clan mechs right now, so you won't see them for more than a year.
Erase all mechs post 3049 - Next releases are 3050 and 3055. How frequently they release mechs is still a mystery. We have no clue if it will be on the day or grouped and in intervals.

This leaves mechs prior to 3050, and that's still a lot of mechs. They haven't said you won't see them, thereby invalidating the entire topic. Furthermore, they explicitly said nothing came of the "legal issues," thereby confirming that the unseen are not legally tied down.

Yu Kigono, on 15 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I never said anything about the Clans being in this game at launch. PGI has already stated that they will be in the game eventually. Perhaps it is you who should read more closely?

And anyway, I mentioned that this was off topic. Anything to say about the rest of my post?

From your condescending tone about me "getting over it," I'd say you're rather sore about the preclusion of clans and your anger at me pointing it out, despite I never said they "will never be in the game."

As a note, smugness is a character flaw. I'd advise being either stoic or at least try non-hostile responses.

[Black Dragon EnDrakus]

Iron Harlequin, on 15 May 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

And for your amusement the Marauder featured in the Intro of a Battletech Sega Genesis game

***? since when could a marauder fly like that?