36 replies to this topic

[Warlune]

Whats the point of piloting the Jagermech if the Cataphract is available?
I don't see any real advantage the Jagermech has over the Cataphract.

Someone please enlighten me.

[Roland]

The Jagermech is 5 tons lighter, and carries no JJ's.

Most artwork for it suggests that it lacks lower arm actuators, which would mean that it could mount AC20's in its arms.

[TruePoindexter]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

The Jagermech is 5 tons lighter, and carries no JJ's.

Most artwork for it suggests that it lacks lower arm actuators, which would mean that it could mount AC20's in its arms.

Also the higher weapon mounts make it a more natural choice for long range fire from cover. The Cataphract is a poor cover sniper since most of its weapon points are very low requiring you to expose most of the mech (with the exception of the two energy hard points).

[One Medic Army]

It also probably has a higher engine cap than the 4X, which is slow as molasses.

[Stormwolf]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Most artwork for it suggests that it lacks lower arm actuators, which would mean that it could mount AC20's in its arms.

I took a peak at the recordsheets, and you are right, it has no lower arm actuators.

[Redshift2k5]

The Jagermech's arm mounted weapons are mounted relativly high on the body. Arms mounted lower on the mech (lower torso like the Atlas's RT ballistic, or lower arm like a CTF's arm weapons) force you to present more of your mech to enemy fire to shoot over intervening terrain

Also, the much-vaunted CTF-4X can carry 4 ballistic weapons but cannot carry four Ultra AC5s: The Jagermech, with fewer arm actuators, will. Ditto for dual AC-20s. Imagine a dual AC-20 Cat that can aim up or down a slope, instead of facing you on (relatively) level terrain.

A Jager mech variant comes packed with dual LRM15s, Cataphracts offer much fewer options for LRM mounts.

In direct comparison with the CTF-4X (the quad ballistic variant being much slower han the other CTFs), the Jagermech is faster while still bringing 4x ballistic hardpoints.

Jagermechs are comparitvely cheaper (for the ballistic pilot on a budget)

Edited by Redshift2k5, 11 December 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Soy]

I wouldn't touch a Jagermech with a 10 foot meter stick.

Ugh.

PS - TruePointdexter you can snipe like a maniac in the 3d, dunno what you're on about.

[Roland]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

PS - TruePointdexter you can snipe like a maniac in the 3d, dunno what you're on about.

When you try and snipe from cover with the 3D (ie. over a ridgeline), your weapons will impact the hillside in front of you, instead of clearing the hill, unless you move your mech almost entirely to the top of the ridge.

This is because it's arm weapons are slung fairly low on its body.

The Jagermech has its weapons mounted at around shoulder level, meaning that it can fire while only exposing a small part of its overall body.

It's similar to how the Novacat was in Mechwarrior 4... You only need to barely clear a ridgeline before all of your weapons can fire on your target.

[Soy]

Umm.. Roland, 3d has jumpjets.

2 energy torso hardpoints. Did you think they only had arm hardpoints or something?

Cover sniping in a 3d is fairly simple and obvious, think about it.

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't touch a Jagermech with a 10 foot meter stick.

Ugh.

PS - TruePointdexter you can snipe like a maniac in the 3d, dunno what you're on about.

Nobody said you couldn't snipe in a Cataphract. Just that to do so, you have to expose more of your mech, while a Jager can stand behind a hill offering less of a target (albeit offering arms and head as said target...)

I think the Jagermech will also have different variety and location of hardpoints, faster engine on some, etc.

Will it be "better" than a Cataphract? For some pilots, yes.

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Umm.. Roland, 3d has jumpjets.

2 energy torso hardpoints. Did you think they only had arm hardpoints or something?

Cover sniping in a 3d is fairly simple and obvious, think about it.

But requires jumping, which limits tonnage for other things, and generates heat.

Again, that doesn't mean the 3D is bad, just different. Pop-tarting is not something every player is capable of, or willing to do. Different strokes, different folks and all that.

[WhiteRabbit]

been probably said before but... without the arm actuators you'll be able to build a really mean double ac20-beast... that can aim up and down hills....the more i think about it the more i want it *dribble*

[Soy]

I agree Kraven, I think people who are into ACs will like the Jagermech.

However, you should take a closer look at the Phract and realize that the two torso weapons are placed very high on the mech, it is very easy to poptart snipe or rock behind hills and fling gauss/ll/ppcs out of them with ease. The convergence between 2 weps in those slots is very good; we're talking about exposing maybe 25% of your body for .7, .8 seconds. It's legit man...

For me the utility of a Cataphract as a capable sniper AND as a capable brawler, with JJs... it's no contest for my playstyle.

If you're into ballistics, like fire support/supression, and aren't looking for high mobility with enough armor to brawl 1-2, then Jagermech is a wet dream. That's not me though, personally.

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

MOAR mechs!

[Aegis Kleais]

The Jagermech is known for its ballistic boating. As of recent, the arm-range nerf on the Cataphract (even though it has more actuators that are now kind of rendered useless) gives them a rather similar mobility with arm-mounted weapons, sad as that is.

[TruePoindexter]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't touch a Jagermech with a 10 foot meter stick.

Ugh.

PS - TruePointdexter you can snipe like a maniac in the 3d, dunno what you're on about.

I will admit that the Jagermech has never been a favorite of mine. I'll look into the Blackjack when it gets added though. Now if only we could get the Rifleman...

Anyway yes you can snipe very successfully with the 3D - I've done it myself. It just requires exposing yourself in one way or another by cresting almost your full body over a hill or jumping and exposing your full body (if only briefly). In either case you do expose yourself to reprise fire/missile locks. Your position is also given away much easier.

EDIT: The exception on the Cataphract are the two energy hard points in the torso which are very high up. I've mounted ER Large before into these locations and enjoyed it immensely.

Conversely when you look at a mech like the Hunchback where I only need to expose the head and right shoulder for most sniping. In this case it becomes very hard for the enemy to respond and especially on hot maps like Caustic it's difficult to even see the sniper. Even if you do see them the target profile offered is very small and it just takes one step backwards to disappear from view.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 11 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Soy]

How do you manage to show your entire body to fire a weapon that is mounted in your shoulder [which is above the head in the Phract]?

Maybe you give your position away easier, I dunno.

You literally compared the Hunchback in the exact same situation that I have repeatedly stated the Phract is capable of doing as well. Are you unaware that it has shoulder points like the Hunch? 3d snipes from shoulders, not arms.

PPS - If previous statement is true, then how then does a Hunchback have as much sniper utility in a similar layout without JJs compared to a poptartable 3d... O.o

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Roland]

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

2 energy torso hardpoints. Did you think they only had arm hardpoints or something?

Err.. yeah.
Half of its hard points are high, and half are low.

Which is less ideal than having all of them high.

What exactly are you trying to argue at this point?

I mean, you don't need to try and tell me the 3D is good.. I use one all the time. One of my favorite chassis... but for the purpose of sniping, its hardpoints will almost certainly be less ideal than the Jagermech.

[Kraven Kor]

The Jagermech is, basically, the Rifleman.

The loadouts are almost identical. Though I still liked the Rifleman better (5 tons be 5 tons yo.)

Soy, on 11 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

How do you manage to show your entire body to fire a weapon that is mounted in your shoulder [which is above the head in the Phract]?

Maybe you give your position away easier, I dunno.

You literally compared the Hunchback in the exact same situation that I have repeatedly stated the Phract is capable of doing as well. Are you unaware that it has shoulder points like the Hunch?

Because I'm not sniping with torso-mounted Medium lasers?

I'm sniping with low-slung, arm-mounted AC-2 or AC-5...

You sure you aren't thinking of the Catapult???

Edited by Kraven Kor, 11 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warlune, on 11 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Whats the point of piloting the Jagermech if the Cataphract is available?
I don't see any real advantage the Jagermech has over the Cataphract.

Someone please enlighten me.

You are not a TRUE Davionista if you don't have a JagerMech in your lab!

[Soy]

Roland, on 11 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Err.. yeah.
Half of its hard points are high, and half are low.

Which is less ideal than having all of them high.

What exactly are you trying to argue at this point?

I mean, you don't need to try and tell me the 3D is good.. I use one all the time. One of my favorite chassis... but for the purpose of sniping, its hardpoints will almost certainly be less ideal than the Jagermech.

I cannot believe I'm having to repeat this - because the Phract has more utility and is still capable of sustained brawling whereas a Hunch is reduced to strikes/assassinations at that point...

I've also repeated that the Jagermech is a beast with ballistics and if someone is a monster with them then they will most likely exploit the potential hardpoint layouts of Jagers unlike anything we've experienced yet in MWO... however it will not maintain the brawl capability ala armor of the Phract nor the mobility utility if no variant has JJs...

I really have nothing else to say about this, I think I've made it clear at this point what my opinions are and don't feel like clarifying them for people who think you snipe with a Phract via arms or is quoting something directed at someone else entirely for some other random tangent.

Edited by Soy, 11 December 2012 - 12:06 PM.