158 replies to this topic

[herosson]

Particle Man, on 11 December 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

because splitting up a fairly small playerbase will only hurt the game worse than a few crybabynoobs on the forum.

You complain that crybabynoobs PUGers suck so you should have no problem not playing with them. Then you wouldn't have to read their posts on the forums and get agro because you play in the more advanced team drop environment.

Problems solved!

[Tikkamasala]

I see a lot of perhaps unfounded faith in an ELO matchmaking system. ELO was meant for two player games like chess and an expansion to a group environment is most likely not an easy task. They would need to collect enough data and find a way to measure the individual contribution to a win or loss (damage done compared to average in that weight class, kills/deaths, cap or cap prevented, etc). Or perhaps an easier way would be to try and force the individual win-loss-ratio to one by increasing or decreasing the ELO. I don't know how fast something like that would converge (if at all) without any additional data and complexity.
I am also not sure how i would rank a team of vastly different individual ELOs and prevent abuse, e.g. using an arithmetic mean a new player or smurf might have a big impact on the groups ELO (so perhaps a median would be better).

Therefore i don't think we can expect such a feature working "flawlessly" in the near future. Having a lone wolf exclusive queue might alleviate some of the grief now (it's an easy fix to include in the next patch) but as some of you already mentioned the player base might not be large enough to support a split. So, please don't play 4+randoms vs randoms too often, instead get more friends to drop as an eight-player-team.

Edited by Tikkamasala, 11 December 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

but the data, it shows nothing...

seriously tho; I keep hearing the data shows that the opposite is true, that you dont run against premades as often as you think you do

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

I see a lot of perhaps unfounded faith in an ELO matchmaking system. ELO was meant for two player games like chess and an expansion to a group environment is most likely not an easy task. They would need to collect enough data and find a way to measure the individual contribution to a win or loss (damage done compared to average in that weight class, kills/deaths, cap or cap prevented, etc). Or perhaps an easier way would be to try and force the individual win-loss-ratio to one by increasing or decreasing the ELO. I don't know how fast something like that would converge (if at all) without any additional data and complexity.
I am also not sure how i would rank a team of vastly different individual ELOs and prevent abuse, e.g. using an arithmetic mean a new player or smurf might have a big impact on the groups ELO (so perhaps a median would be better).

Therefore i don't think we can expect such a feature working "flawlessly" in the near future. Having a lone wolf exclusive queue might alleviate some of the grief now (it's an easy fix to include in the next patch) but as some of you already mentioned the player base might not be large enough to support a split. So, please don't play 4+randoms vs randoms too often, instead get more friends to drop as an eight-player-team.

It's Beta... of course it won't work flawlessly and expecting it to is unreasonable. As long as they get the 1st iteration in and begin the data collection process so we're headed in the right direction. You can't jump to step Z and expect perfection when you haven't done steps A,B,C first.

If you want a lone wolf queue... then everyones gonna demand a queue. Then they gotta make a trial mech queue etc etc. Then other PUGS will complain about more experienced PUGs stomping them... or make up some new boogeyman about premades now splitting up and sync dropping into the PUG only queue as an excuse for when they lose. Then what are you gonna do? You really think a PUG only queue will stop all these PUG QQ threads? The excuses never end because it all comes down to wins and losses and some peoples pride can't take the dent of losing from time to time.

All these little bandaid fixes diverts the little Dev/QA resources to get ELO up as well as other features.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Wendigo Vendetta]

The following is in no way intended to support the OP's suggestion, however...

Is there really any scenario where people PUG stomping for c-bills, XP, and ratings would not make every one of the oposing arguments to protect their racket? Because the answer is "no" I can hardly take any of the detractions very seriously either.

Most especially: those demanding proof that cannot exist and then immediately claiming the opposite is true based on their own unprovable, subjective experience... congratulations on the hypocracy.

Edited by Wendigo Vendetta, 11 December 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

It's Beta... of course it won't work flawlessly and expecting it to is unreasonable. As long as they get the 1st iteration in and begin the data collection process so we're headed in the right direction. You can't jump to step Z and expect perfection when you haven't done steps A,B,C first.

That's why i tried to caution (with some random thoughts about the technical aspects).

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

If you want a lone wolf queue... then everyones gonna demand a queue. Then we gotta make a trial mech queue etc etc. Then other PUGS will complain about more experienced PUGs stomping them... then what are you gonna do? You really think a PUG only queue will stop all these PUG QQ threads?

All these little bandaid fixes diverts the little Dev/QA resources to get ELO up as well as other features.

That's why i said it will alleviate some of the grief. It won't be the perfect solution and it's a really trivial solution. Could be in the next patch if they wanted and it won't divert resources away from getting ELO running. Alas MWO has not the player-base for such a split, or so i've been told in this thread.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 11 December 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Most especially: those demanding proof that cannot exist and then immediately claiming the opposite is true based on their own unprovable, subjective experience... congratulations on the hypocracy.

ah, like the devs do when they tell us the data says otherwise?

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

That's why i tried to caution (with some random thoughts about the technical aspects).



That's why i said it will alleviate some of the grief. It won't be the perfect solution and it's a really trivial solution. Could be in the next patch if they wanted and it won't divert resources away from getting ELO running. Alas MWO has not the player-base for such a split, or so i've been told in this thread.

No it can't be in the next patch if you know how software development works. You don't just put something in and throw it out there. Stuff has to be coded, then tested, major defects need to be fixed, then tested again. And if you think this can be done simply in a span of a week, you're kidding yourself. Look at the outrage that people have whenever they release buggy stuff. A company has a limited amount of resources... you divert one project to work on another... well guess what you need to divert devs and QA as well to handle that new project which means less people on other projects. And doing all of that coding, testing just to satisfy one group diverts resources away from the overall goal which is ELO. This is especially true since they're running the AGILE development system.

At least with ELO, people can't complain as much anymore since you'll be fighting people of your same level and hopefully people with even loadouts (we need to stop the decked out mechs vs some new player in a trial mech). Sure people will find a way to game that system but you're not going to stop people from doing that. At least the majority of the time, it will be relatively fair for people of all skill levels.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Wyatt Earp]

For those of you who don't see this as an issue, your kidding yourselves. It is an issue, and it needs to be fixed. I don't know how, but it needs fixed.

I've been on both sides of this. All anyone has to do is see how many times this very complaint has been brought up to realize there is some problem with implementing this part of the game. PGI will get us there, but please stop kidding yourself that this is a "noob" complaint. You sometimes come off to others as having an elitist attitude, even if you don't mean to.

[DoRkcHoPs]

Even with ELO matchmaking you could in theory just do really really bad and lower your rating and then go stomp lower rated players for a while.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

DoRkcHoPs, on 11 December 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Even with ELO matchmaking you could in theory just do really really bad and lower your rating and then go stomp lower rated players for a while.

Sure you could... then go stomp on lower level players... and waste your time getting back to exactly to where you were before. Waste of time for that person to do that... but of course there will be jerks out there who will still do it just to be a troll. But at least they'll have to sit through games of purposely dying over and over again just to accomplish that goal of lowering their rating on purpose. Just like the precious K/D/Wins ratio... the majority would rather compete to get their rating higher than everyone else.

No matter what you come up with... people will always find a way to make others experience horrible just for the attention. But at least ELO would work for the majority of people.

Ask yourself logically what would be better to use the limited resources for...

Would there be more stomping in a ELO based system where to game it... you would have to literally work to lower your rating on purpose just to stomp with the result of getting yourself back to where you were. (Would there actually be tons of people doing this... I doubt it since it'll take just as much work to lower your rating then bring it back up). But for everyone else, they would be fighting people of their same levels...

or

would there be more stomping in a PUG only queue where everything still goes just like it is now... including more experienced PUGS with decked out mechs vs noobs with trial mechs, the accusations of people 8 man sync dropping the queue, etc etc.

It's a no brainer of which one is better to fix the problem.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Ask yourself... would there be more stomping in a ELO based system where you would have to literally lower your rating on purpose just to stomp to get yourself back to where you were....

or

would there be more stomping in a PUG only queue where everything still goes... including more experienced PUGS with decked out mechs vs noobs with trial mechs, the accusations of people 8 man sync dropping the queue, etc etc.

The question is not whether we get one or the other. We all hope we get a working ELO system sooner than later but there is a problem with organised groups fighting 8 total strangers. At least i don't have fun being on either side if it's happening too often. A solo queue would help somewhat.

Edit: A more important change would be a reconnect feature for your disconnected teammates and a flashing warning in the first moments of the battle to not run off and suicide though. Having to fight with less than eight players per side is actually even worse than fighting the occasional premade group.

Edited by Tikkamasala, 11 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wyatt Earp, on 11 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

For those of you who don't see this as an issue, your kidding yourselves.

That would be the devs. Theyre the ones I see telling us that the data says we dont see premades as much as you think you do.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Mack1... you are a 'freakin genious! You sounded a little smart to me, but hey, I'd rather be a smart *** than a dumb one

groups of 2 / 3 / 4 should play with groups of 2 / 3 / 4. PUGs should have a solo que 'cos..



edit: I let the music speak for itself (if ya kno wut I mean): notice the nodding of the heads up and down not side2side.

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 11 December 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

The question is not whether we get one or the other. We all hope we get a working ELO system sooner than later but there is a problem with organised groups fighting 8 total strangers. At least i don't have fun being on either side if it's happening too often. A solo queue would help somewhat.

Edit: A more important change would be a reconnect feature for your disconnected teammates and a flashing warning in the first moments of the battle to not run off and suicide though. Having to fight with less than eight players per side is actually even worse than fighting the occasional premade group.

You don't get organized groups fighting 8 strangers the majority of the time (Phase 1 fixed this) unless they do a sync drop which is a minority until proven otherwise.

Also, you only got yourself to blame for not organizing yourself in due time. Its a feature available to everyone... some choose to use it... some don't. You can't place blame on people who chose to use it when its available to everyone. It's fair in that you like everyone else have a choice... if you choose not to use it... don't expect to be a winner the majority of the time.

Most importantly, even with your Solo Queue... the same thing would happen... it just won't be you on the other side. Some new player will get a trial mech... face you with a decked out customized mech... you'll wipe the floor with them. You turn into exactly what you're complaining about but now that you're on the winning/stomping side... will you still care? Does that fix the problem... not at all!

And for those who won't care... then we know your true intentions for wanting a solo queue over ELO is to be the PUGstomper and not face any high level competition while doing it.

So look in the mirror and really ask yourself what your true intentions are especially if your argument is for one that benefits the "new players" who you claim are the cash cows which will drive this game towards the future. It's the same argument PUGs use against premades... thrown right back at you.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

You don't get organized groups fighting 8 strangers the majority of the time (Phase 1 fixed this) unless they do a sync drop which is a minority until proven otherwise.

I meant 2-4 players using voice chat. Most of them don't bother to use team chat and just do their thing. It looks rather organised and is a huge boon vs the other teams random noobs.

And yes, it doesn't happen all the time and is easily confused with the typical 2-8 loss vs 8 total strangers who just stuck to a better tactic/were better than your own random group.

Quote

Also, you only got yourself to blame for not organizing yourself in due time. Its a feature available to everyone... some choose to use it... some don't. You can't place blame on people who chose to use it when its available to everyone.

If you are referring to the in game chat then i have to agree. It's not used enough.

[Corvus Antaka]

I disagree. I play 8 mans, I play 4 mans, and I pug. And I've noticed a marked improvement over anything we had before, most certainly the 8 man steamroll that was so popular in closed beta. I spent the entire closed beta pugging, and it was nightmarish some days, the same can not be said today.

Matchmaking still needs work to be fair, tribes ascend type ranking & balancing system of pilots would be ideal, but we are in a MUCH better place than before phase 2.

[Alexandrix]

I think it would help if the matchmaker didnt just throw teams together in such a sloppy and easily exploited manner.It fills one team up,and then the other.at least as far as i can tell anyways.change it so that if it gets a team it applies that team to side A,and then switches to fill an equal number on side B.Then goes back to filling team A.Or it gets all 16 players in a bucket,and randomly assigns them to team A or B (when not in a premade 4 man).

Point of the matter is,8 man synch dropping still happens (surprise! *but not really*).There are still terribads out there that want to cheese the system because they suck and can't cut it in the 8man queue.Does it happen as often as most people seem to think? no,of course not,but it does happen.people will naturally take the easiest path to wins/cbills.ergo,pugstomping.

If the matchmaker didn't choose to fill up 1 team....and then the other one after the fact....it will make it a little harder to sync drop.It'd probably still happen on the rare,strange occurange,but it wouldn't be easy to time.
Also,another thing,it's way to common for 2 4 man teams to be pitted against 8 randoms.Happens all the time when I'm 4 manning that "oh,look at that" the other 4 people on my team are in a completely separate 4 man premade.purely by coincidence.STOP FILLING ONE TEAM BEFORE THE OTHER!!! ALTERNATE PLAYER ALLOCATION!!!!!

Edited by Alexandrix, 11 December 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[bLaCkMaMbA]

Tikkamasala, on 11 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I meant 2-4 players using voice chat. Most of them don't bother to use team chat and just do their thing. It looks rather organised and is a huge boon vs the other teams random noobs.

And yes, it doesn't happen all the time and is easily confused with the typical 2-8 loss vs 8 total strangers who just stuck to a better tactic/were better than your own random group.


If you are referring to the in game chat then i have to agree. It's not used enough.

So is it their fault that they chose a better communication method which you turned down? Remember, it was your (the people who won't use voice chats) decision to not use it. Thats like being forced into a group who has cell phones to communicate... yet complaining to them to use smoke signals to communicate because you choose not to buy a cell phone. It's not their fault they chose the better method which was also available to you. Just like how PUGS says they shouldn't be forced to go voice.... why would people with voice chat be forced to downgrade back to text chat when they have the more advanced/advantageous tool which you turned down to use?

But again... the below is exactly why your solo queue won't do a darn thing. It just rotates whos going to be stomping who... And until PUGS can explain how that wouldn't happen and why would solo queues change any of that for the better versus a ELO system, it just isn't logical to divert resources.

Even with your Solo Queue... the same thing would happen... it just won't be you on the other side. Some new player will get a trial mech... face you with a decked out customized mech... you'll wipe the floor with them. You turn into exactly what you're complaining about but now that you're on the winning/stomping side... will you still care? Does that fix the problem... not at all!

And for those who won't care... then we know your true intentions for wanting a solo queue over ELO is to be the PUGstomper and not face any high level competition while doing it.


So look in the mirror and really ask yourself what your true intentions are especially if your argument is for one that benefits the "new players" who you claim are the cash cows which will drive this game towards the future. It's the same argument PUGs use against premades... thrown right back at you.

Edited by bLaCkMaMbA, 11 December 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

bLaCkMaMbA, on 11 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Most importantly, even with your Solo Queue... the same thing would happen... it just won't be you on the other side. Some new player will get a trial mech... face you with a decked out customized mech... you'll wipe the floor with them. You turn into exactly what you're complaining about but now that you're on the winning/stomping side... will you still care? Does that fix the problem... not at all!

The probability to get an even team are higher in the solo queue. So while you are correct that the same can happen it will happen less often.

Quote

And for those who won't care... then we know your true intentions for wanting a solo queue over ELO is to be the PUGstomper and not face any high level competition while doing it.

Is there anyone who wants a solo queue instead of ELO? I did not notice anyone in this thread.