100 replies to this topic

[GeneralAtrox]

Using LRMs is like sniping on any game. Just it's a little bit easier to get your shots then using an AC weapon.

Any person behind the wheel will have some sense to hide behind something. LRMs can be useless on some hill based maps unless you like walking in like Rambo.

[Jakob Knight]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Gio, you joke right? I can snipe you with a Gauss at 1000M with No Lock. travel time is no issue, but missiles I have to wait, and wait, and wait till they reach target, and if I loose lock, I lose ammo. Give me missiles that fly at supersonic speed so they reach their targets as fast as a Hypersonic Gauss round then. Seriously you don't want to argue the difficulty of killing with an infantry soldier.

I think you meant to say 'I can shoot a slow moving or non-moving target with a Gauss at 1000m with No Lock, and do no damage because Gauss only has a range of 650m, and anything faster than an Atlas will require a volley of shots to get a hit on unless they are coming right at me.'. That I could believe.

[elsie]

hammerreborn, on 12 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

See I never understood this complaint about ECM. Every single rant against it can all devolve into one single easy point. Based solely on who brings more ECM mechs, one team can use streaks, the other cannot. The streaks are the issue, not the ECM. If streaks weren't considered practically mandatory, I don't think there would be nearly as much complaints as they are right now. If the commando 2D and raven 3L weren't the heaviest missle boaters of their chassis, I don't think people would complain that much about ECM. NOONE cares about the cicada, even though it has the same lagshield, more armor, and roughly the same speed as a raven. You know why? Because it has no streaks. Why is a Jenner considered a liability in 8 mans now while not even 2 weeks ago people laughed at anyone who didn't have them? Because they can't use streaks (jenners will always end up paired against some light that will disable their SSRMs while being able to use their own). It's streaks. It's always been streaks, it'll always be streaks. If there weren't 4 streak ravens/streakmandos running around no one would give a **** about them or ECM. Your suggestion is to allow them to fire indirectly if ECMed. Then they're just SRM2s, and guess what, you could equip those instead! But no, everyone wants their streaks, because streaks have become mandatory in nearly every missle hardpoint because they're so easy to use and they are near guarenteed damage, and that's the ******* issue, not ECM.

Actually, streaks aren't the issue; netcode/lagshield is the issue. Streakboats were just a response to that problem. During CB, I did not see that many streakboats (LRM insanity, yes but they dealt with a lot of those issues). But at the same time, I (and apparently a lot of other people) didn't have much trouble bugzapping high speed lights with lasers or ballistics without having to guess for every shot where the mech really was. The biggest issue was when they were tripped and bounced teleported a half dozen times while you were shooting them. Strangely enough, they didn't seem to do that while they were moving. Just as an example from last month (that I wish I had recorded), I was chasing a hunchback in my laser HBK and shooting him in the back. I saw him turning left and zapped at him again. About that time, he teleported 5 meters to the right and was now turning right instead. Obviously I'd missed (and probably the previous shots as well) even though the client showed I had hit. If I had been in my streakboat or if netcode wasn't in a sad state of affairs, I wouldn't have missed. And yes, I was leading him with what I had guessed was the current lag effect.

As far as 'skill' goes. Let's look at what it takes to fire a 'n00blet no-skill' weapon:
1. put reticle on target
2. hold reticle on moving target until it gets a lock, hoping all the while he doesn't go out of LoS
3. Look at where he is and where he is going and decide if he will get to cover in time (for LRMs)
4. Fire weapon - if LRMs, hope that he doesn't get behind cover or that you have a spotter watching from a different angle in case you lose LoS
5. Keep reticle on target until missiles land to maintain lock
6. Continue firing until you lose lock

Now for direct fire:

1. Put reticle on target (or where you think the target actually is) and pull trigger
2. If it's ballistic, hope you guessed right; if it's laser and he's not taking damage, sweep a bit till you find him
3. Keep firing until it drops or you decide you're getting too hot

So, no, actual combat in MWO doesn't take any real skill. The real skill involves keeping your head and thinking through the strategy early in the drop, keeping your head when you turn the corner into the furball, proper target selection and maintaining situational awareness, keeping your head and knowing when to disengage or change tactics. Players that do that and still manage to hit the broad side of an atlas with whatever weapon they have are the ones that will come out with the win and/or the most damage (kills and kill assists are a non-sequitor).

Until such times as they are fixed, I will use whatever tools compensate for the deficiencies of the game, whether that be a streakcat, AC20kitty, dakkadakkaPhract, streakmando or whatever. I would hate to see what the boat-haters would say about some of the tabletop cheeze I have seen. No hardpoint restrictions there; whatever would fit in the slots and within tonnage goes.


elsie

[Ursh]

Sniping with a direct fire weapon isn't harder, it just requires a lower ping and fast reflexes. If you're between the ages of 12-25 and can't manage the reflexes required for this, then you suck. Actual sniping in the real world is an older man's game, because they have to take into account humidity, wind velocity, curvature of the earth, and several other factors for the kind of long range shots that are comically easy to make with 2x zoom and thermal vision in mwo online. You guys aren't snipers, you're just people who aim slightly above center torso hoping for a head shot from twice the listed range of your weapon.

You're also using mechs whose ballistic hardpoints aren't even remotely close together and, in some cases, are locked in sockets that realistically could never hit the same location from any range. Yet there you sit, double gaussing people in the center torso or head. Or if you're piloting a cataphract, you can stand 10m away from an atlas, and hit him in one location with all your weapons, despite the physical impossibility of this.

Yet you have the gall to say that what you're doing requires skill, rather than a manipulation of the laws of physics. If you want to talk about reality, in 1000 years guys in elemental suits would be packing missiles that would fry an atlas in one shot, while being impossible to detect due to thermal/magnetic cloaking.

[Sifright]

Sundiver, on 11 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Been thinking about this for awhile now. The people who complain about the LRM's and Streaks being, "Easy Mode", while their Energy/Ballistic weapons are how, "real men", pilot mechs.

This game is not and never was intended to be a FPS. It's a simulation of an incredibly sophisticated machine. It's the equivalent of strapping on a modern jet fighter.

I got as far as modern jet fighter and laughed my *** off.

Cheers best laugh i've had in a while.

You do understand that even world war 2 fighters are more complicated than mechs the way this game has set it up? I mean seriously maximum ranges of 1km? Sure it's battle tech lore but it doesn't stop being ******** because of that.

Let me know when your engaging at realistic ranges and then we can call this game a sim.

otherwise is a bog standard Arcadey piloting game.

il-2 is a world war 2 fighter simulation game. Check that out before you keep smoking the mechsim crack line it's beyond hilarious.

Edited by Sifright, 12 December 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[elsie]

Jakob Knight, on 12 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think you meant to say 'I can shoot a slow moving or non-moving target with a Gauss at 1000m with No Lock, and do no damage because Gauss only has a range of 650m, and anything faster than an Atlas will require a volley of shots to get a hit on unless they are coming right at me.'. That I could believe.

Probably not. I was hit from across the Forest Colony by a Gaussapult. Drop had just started and I was moving from the lower base out to the water to scout. I was using thermal and looking toward the enemy base and saw a single gauss shot streak across and hit me in the CT. Stock engine so I was probably doing 114kph or so and I had transversal movement (I think it may have been 30 or so degrees from perpendicular toward him). There were no ranging shots prior to that and I stopped behind the rocks afterwards. Too far for him to have even gotten a red triangle on his HUD for me. I suppose I could call 'hax0rs' but I was playing the optimist that day.


elsie

[Purlana]

How much skills is required to snip?

Zoom, point at stationary target, click.


Target is moving slow? Adjust to fire slightly ahead.

Edited by Purlana, 12 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Pygar]

Sundiver, on 11 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Been thinking about this for awhile now. The people who complain about the LRM's and Streaks being, "Easy Mode", while their Energy/Ballistic weapons are how, "real men", pilot mechs.

This game is not and never was intended to be a FPS. It's a simulation of an incredibly sophisticated machine. It's the equivalent of strapping on a modern jet fighter.

Yes, you do probably have a cannon on board but, modern air combat doctrine says you if you need it, you've screwed up. Most of your weapons are modern, fire and forget from beyond visual range.

Stop and consider nine times out of ten even you non-missile users have locked onto your target and if you're a halfway experienced player you're using your enemy damage indicated display to put your impact point where it needs to be. You watch you're impact point, get it on the section you want and hold the trigger down till it blows off. There is no practical difference between locking on from 600 meters and sniping a section than there is locking on from 600 meters and raining missiles on someone's head.

I can't count the number of times I've died to someone sniping from the edge of lock on range. The smart pilot understands and uses combined arms. Let the missile mechs rain soften targets before you move in and finish them.

Yeah, but the LRMs in MWO are way better than they were in tabletop, both in terms of accuracy and in terms of applied damage...and tend to solo pop targets more than just "soften them up". If LRMs behaved more like tabletop, they would spread out more and overall do less damage, and shooting targets w/out LOS would require a spotter.

By way of comparison, direct fire weapons require LOS, pretty much require camera zooming at extreme range, and require either a stationary target, or require "leading" the target with shots in order to land hits...all while making sure you aren't getting shot to pieces at the same time.

So, while this thread is a back handed dig at ECM- I think it needs to be mentioned that LRMs need a nerf just as bad as ECM does, so that the second ECM spam goes away it isn't just replaced with LRM spam (again), and so that the Catapult pilots that just refuse to fly anything else (because LRMs are too good) are forced to look into other options.

[MadcatX]

LRM's are TOO good?

What? I, as well as the polls pre-ECM, indicated that most people (78% last I checked) who had voted thought that LRM's were fine.

As for "being forced" to look into other options... you mean YOU want to force me to look into other options, ones that I can only assume fit your playstyle or your vision of the game. I love when people want me to play THEIR game.

[Solis Obscuri]

Ursh, on 12 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

Sniping with a direct fire weapon isn't harder, it just requires a lower ping and fast reflexes. If you're between the ages of 12-25 and can't manage the reflexes required for this, then you suck. Actual sniping in the real world is an older man's game, because they have to take into account humidity, wind velocity, curvature of the earth, and several other factors for the kind of long range shots that are comically easy to make with 2x zoom and thermal vision in mwo online. You guys aren't snipers, you're just people who aim slightly above center torso hoping for a head shot from twice the listed range of your weapon.

You're also using mechs whose ballistic hardpoints aren't even remotely close together and, in some cases, are locked in sockets that realistically could never hit the same location from any range. Yet there you sit, double gaussing people in the center torso or head. Or if you're piloting a cataphract, you can stand 10m away from an atlas, and hit him in one location with all your weapons, despite the physical impossibility of this.

Yet you have the gall to say that what you're doing requires skill, rather than a manipulation of the laws of physics. If you want to talk about reality, in 1000 years guys in elemental suits would be packing missiles that would fry an atlas in one shot, while being impossible to detect due to thermal/magnetic cloaking.

But yeah, totally agree with you here. All the weapons are very easy to use, and very easy to fire accurately (even when charging around like a loon at over 100mph). I continue to be stupefied that so many people place pointing and clicking with a mouse cursor on a pedestal equivalent to Byron Ferguson longbow trick-shots.

[Orkhepaj]

"this is not an fps" ... sure...
oh but planes use missiles too .. lame ..

[Pygar]

MadcatX, on 12 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

LRM's are TOO good?

What? I, as well as the polls pre-ECM, indicated that most people (78% last I checked) who had voted thought that LRM's were fine.

As for "being forced" to look into other options... you mean YOU want to force me to look into other options, ones that I can only assume fit your playstyle or your vision of the game. I love when people want me to play THEIR game.

Yeah, I said it....in TT an LRM20 would average 12 actual missiles landed on a successful hit, and the damage would be split into 3 groups (5dmg/5dmg/2dmg) that would apply to random locations- this made it so that an LRM 20 launcher felt somewhere on par with PPCs or AC10s for damage, with the difference in range made up for by the difference in how the damage applied.

In MWO right now, I am pretty sure if you are standing still and get hit by an LRM20 that all 20 missiles will hit, and all of them will go directly to the center torso... meanwhile weapons like PPCs hit like a wet sock in comparison, or like the AC10 need a secondary "disruption/knockback" effect in order to feel like they are hitting as hard as they should for their weight- and that's not even considering the whole "fire and forget with or w/out LOS" vs. manual aiming argument, or the differences in weapon range. (or the whole lag/netcode part of the discussion)

As far as playstyle is concerned, I just want to see balance in the game, which ironically, MW/BT games have always been kinda bad at. In this situation, the balance isn't far off...but LRMs are very guilty of being an "easy button" the way they work currently compared to direct fire weapons...and it's pretty shameless of the OP here to pretend otherwise.

[Ryolacap]

LRMs, never had a problem, they spread damage out when they hit, there is a warning when fired, and you can take cover. I do have a problem when they go through stuff and hit you though. Streaks, on the other hand, are broke, so yes they are an easy mode exploit. They always aim for CT, so even a lazy drunk newbie they are deadly, I have seen Streakers racking up 800+ dmg with streak2s! Thats huge dmg at CT. They lock and stay locked, they go for CT, and fire pretty fast. a SRM 6 boat you can do pretty good damg, but at least I have to aim, and its is spread out.

Edited by Ryolacap, 12 December 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[MadcatX]

LRM's are not fire and forget.

As for it being an "easy button", yes, firing is easy. Having them land on a mech with a half-decent pilot, can be tricky. It may be an easy button, but it's no longer the "I win" button it was once upon a time.

[Pygar]

Ryolacap, on 12 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

LRMs, never had a problem, they spread damage out when they hit, there is a warning when fired, and you can take cover. I do have a problem when they go through stuff and hit you though. Streaks, on the other hand, are broke, so yes they are an easy mode exploit. They always aim for CT, so even a lazy drunk newbie they are deadly, I have seen Streakers racking up 800+ dmg with streak2s! Thats huge dmg at CT. They lock and stay locked, they go for CT, and fire pretty fast. a SRM 6 boat you can do pretty good damg, but at least I have to aim, and its is spread out.

Oh that's good to know that they do spread- but they don't spread anywhere near as bad as they did in TT. If they fixed it so that no LOS meant no lock then that might make LRMs seem about right to me. Right now tho, the truth about all the ECM spamming out there is because w/out ECM to spam "fire and forget" missile spam becomes the meta, and making sure every mech you own is equipped with an AMS so that you have some defense other than hiding is wonky too. (Modules and Weapons should be good enough that people want to carry them, not so strong that people feel like they are stupid to not have them.)

And yeah, Streak SRM 2's were never that valuable in TT...sure, they were better than regular SRM2s, but not so good that they would win whole battles for people.

[Solis Obscuri]

Ryolacap, on 12 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

LRMs, never had a problem, they spread damage out when they hit, there is a warning when fired, and you can take cover. I do have a problem when they go through stuff and hit you though. Streaks, on the other hand, are broke, so yes they are an easy mode exploit. They always aim for CT, so even a lazy drunk newbie they are deadly, I have seen Streakers racking up 800+ dmg with streak2s! Thats huge dmg at CT. They lock and stay locked, they go for CT, and fire pretty fast. a SRM 6 boat you can do pretty good damg, but at least I have to aim, and its is spread out.

This ^^^

And to the best of my knowledge, PGI still hasn't gotten them to spread from the CT by very much.

Of course, my Fatlas ate Streakcats for breakfast, but in a medium they were a real pain in the ***.

Whereas now SSRMs are mostly a good tool for ECM lights who can't be targeted until (or after) they enter jam and spam range... so instead of fixing one problem we got a new one.

[Odins Fist]

Sundiver, on 11 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

This game is not and never was intended to be a FPS. It's a simulation of an incredibly sophisticated machine. It's the equivalent of strapping on a modern jet fighter.

.
Well I have to say after "MechWarrior Online" was advertised as a "Thinking Persons Shooter", I think you have some rethinking to do.
.
MWO is "NOT" a simulator, "PERIOD".. It is a "First Person Shooter" with half hearted elements of a simulator thrown in for effect, and "ANYONE" that thinks MWO is a simulator is way off...
.
MWO does "NOT" reflect any of the elements of "ANY" simulator, and especially "ANY" flight simulator (or other) I have played before, it doesn't even come close, "BUT" none of that bothers me since it "IS" advertised as a "Thinking Persons Shooter".. Watch and be humbled... "A THINKING PERSONS SHOOTER"
.

Edited by Odins Fist, 12 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Gabrielpendragon]

Lrms are hardly easy mode, when your running out in the open and get nailed with LRMs, it doesn't really matter if it is LRMs or if it is just guass or acs or anything else. your a large chuck of metal with a big red box that says shoot me around you. With strategies like that all weapons are easy mode against you, cause you as a pilot are playing an easy target.

Ive sat around ducking in and out of cover in many mechs sucking up lrms and taking almost no damage cause they hit the cover i am using. Too many people don't know how to use LRMs, they just lock and fire and expect it to hit the target everytime. It doesn't work that way.

The most complex skill set in this game is team work.

[Helbourne]

Odins Fist, on 12 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

.
Well I have to say after "MechWarrior Online" was advertised as a "Thinking Persons Shooter", I think you have some rethinking to do.
.
MWO is "NOT" a simulator, "PERIOD".. It is a "First Person Shooter" with half hearted elements of a simulator thrown in for effect, and "ANYONE" that thinks MWO is a simulator is way off...
.
MWO does "NOT" reflect any of the elements of "ANY" simulator, and especially "ANY" flight simulator (or other) I have played before, it doesn't even come close, "BUT" none of that bothers me since it "IS" advertised as a "Thinking Persons Shooter".. Watch and be humbled... "A THINKING PERSONS SHOOTER"
.

Yeah and they keep calling this a 'Open Beta'. No more wipes / restarts, after a 'closed beta'.... sounds a lot like a 'game launch' to me. Okay okay... its their game, they can call whatever stage the game is in, whatever they want. I know, I have heard its different with this style of free to play.

All the weapons take different skill sets to be effective.

[Pygar]

Gabrielpendragon, on 12 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Lrms are hardly easy mode, when your running out in the open and get nailed with LRMs, it doesn't really matter if it is LRMs or if it is just guass or acs or anything else. your a large chuck of metal with a big red box that says shoot me around you. With strategies like that all weapons are easy mode against you, cause you as a pilot are playing an easy target.

Ive sat around ducking in and out of cover in many mechs sucking up lrms and taking almost no damage cause they hit the cover i am using. Too many people don't know how to use LRMs, they just lock and fire and expect it to hit the target everytime. It doesn't work that way.

The most complex skill set in this game is team work.

I can appreciate this. I had an epiphany a post or so ago...it's really the LOS issue that bugs me the most about them when comparing them to using direct fire weapons.(and PGI probably can't really change that very easily). The other issue is damage spreading...of which the OP even mentions how he sees "LRMs softening up targets as they advance for the direct fire guys to finish off" which is how it often played out in TT, but in MWO currently, missile boats will stomp unwitting or unlucky pilots into the dirt as fast as anything else, and in some cases faster.