90 replies to this topic

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Sifright, on 12 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

There is no such thing as 'scouts' in pugs. Unless you are constantly typing what you see you aren't scouting in a pug match. when you provide support, what do you mean by that? I see a lot of people typing that kind of thing and agreeing with the sentiment but really what are you actually providing to your team. It's not information in pug matches one ECM nullifies all of your ability to relay info automatically. Your damage output at a light mech SHOULDN'T be terrible. Yes you don't have a huge amount of damage output but you have mobility to stay in the fight out of their hit path and damaging them from the periphery as a light you should be doing about 200-400 damage aiming for CT's (the enemy will torso twist to split damage after all) ultimately 'role warfare' is a nice idea but it doesn't apply to pug matches for the most part. If you aren't doing damage you aren't helping in the current game setup. Any one talking about getting head shots really has no idea about how to play the game only a couple of weapons in the game can really be targeted that precisely and with the current state of the netcode and how finicky the hit boxes are you won't be hitting the head hit box unless they are stood still.

First of all, scout would be spotting assists, which does still exsist. secondly, support would be picking of those pesky lights death spiralling the assault and getting the light mechs heat on me (or the assault would die quickly and so that he can thus focus on the other mediums and up mechs). Support also imply splitting the enemy force up with a good distraction as stated above, or capping the base to have the enemy split up to defend it making less fire on the main force. Support would also include running back to defend your own base when the enemy does the same so the slower and more powerful mechs can stay on the front lines getting +500 damage on the enemy mechs. Third not all players have either massive amounts of c-bills to increase engine size to go over 120kph which would be more ideal to dodging then ~81 to ~97 stock speed of most mechs (excluding jenners and cicadas), nor do they have all the 'perks' for all the mechs (like increased speed or weapon recharge speed) that makes it even easier to do +500 damage. You guys always forget what its like being a new players and forget that those perks help you get that damage score.

As for scouting (again), i normally tell people that im scouting this said area, and if i die then the enemy is there. or i run to a safe zone quickly and type it out, thus scouting. Most times, the entire enemy force is there and four atlases shoting at a light going around a corner... one very dead light mech with almost no damage score, but the team knows that four atlases are in that location (normally the tunnel)

The last point should likely be the lack of a plan, as most premade teams (even of four) come in having a plan where most pug players dont even know what their own allies can do or will do, and when asked most just say "win" "kill" or "Not die". not like group A go here and group B go there. group C scout tunnel, group D support with range... on and on it goes.

[Raeven]

LanceUy, on 12 December 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Title says it all. Sorry for the rant. How many have frustrations like these also?

Only when we lose.

[Sifright]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 12 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

First of all, scout would be spotting assists, which does still exsist. secondly, support would be picking of those pesky lights death spiralling the assault and getting the light mechs heat on me (or the assault would die quickly and so that he can thus focus on the other mediums and up mechs). Support also imply splitting the enemy force up with a good distraction as stated above, or capping the base to have the enemy split up to defend it making less fire on the main force. Support would also include running back to defend your own base when the enemy does the same so the slower and more powerful mechs can stay on the front lines getting +500 damage on the enemy mechs. Third not all players have either massive amounts of c-bills to increase engine size to go over 120kph which would be more ideal to dodging then ~81 to ~97 stock speed of most mechs (excluding jenners and cicadas), nor do they have all the 'perks' for all the mechs (like increased speed or weapon recharge speed) that makes it even easier to do +500 damage. You guys always forget what its like being a new players and forget that those perks help you get that damage score.

As for scouting (again), i normally tell people that im scouting this said area, and if i die then the enemy is there. or i run to a safe zone quickly and type it out, thus scouting. Most times, the entire enemy force is there and four atlases shoting at a light going around a corner... one very dead light mech with almost no damage score, but the team knows that four atlases are in that location (normally the tunnel)

The last point should likely be the lack of a plan, as most premade teams (even of four) come in having a plan where most pug players dont even know what their own allies can do or will do, and when asked most just say "win" "kill" or "Not die". not like group A go here and group B go there. group C scout tunnel, group D support with range... on and on it goes.

You can't scout (relay positional data of enemy mechs) when the enemy team is running under ECM umbrella, and spot assists in general aren't that valuable unless your team is running LRM boats. Which again rare in ECM land.

No I didn't forget what it's like to be a new player. I had to grind away in a trial it's a pain in the *** it's terrible and really the match making system shouldn't be putting players of such vastly different caliber of skill in the same match.

That said even in a trial at the start I was doing reasonably well, then again I've played the previous mech warrior games and had an Idea of what to expect.

The problem with scouting being ineffective in pug matches has everything to do with no voice comms to enable a player to relay what they see as thanks to ECM it's not automatic and most people wont type it (I wouldn't it takes to long) fix that and we fix a whole slew of problems.

[Tesunie]

Sifright, on 12 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

You can't scout (relay positional data of enemy mechs) when the enemy team is running under ECM umbrella, and spot assists in general aren't that valuable unless your team is running LRM boats. Which again rare in ECM land.

No I didn't forget what it's like to be a new player. I had to grind away in a trial it's a pain in the *** it's terrible and really the match making system shouldn't be putting players of such vastly different caliber of skill in the same match.

That said even in a trial at the start I was doing reasonably well, then again I've played the previous mech warrior games and had an Idea of what to expect.

The problem with scouting being ineffective in pug matches has everything to do with no voice comms to enable a player to relay what they see as thanks to ECM it's not automatic and most people wont type it (I wouldn't it takes to long) fix that and we fix a whole slew of problems.

Constructive, and I agree. If this game had a voice chat system, I'd probably get a mic just so I could use it to make my scouting better. It would help being scouting as a more effective and friendly role back into the game.

On the other hand, I do tend to take the time to type when it's safe(ish) to do so. Which could be when I'm dead. Scouting still possible, but I will agree, not easy. (And shouldn't be considered mythical either...)

I think you pegged why most people don't scout right, or why most lights are set up for speed and attack now. Before ECM, lights tended to be fielded in a more scout like fashion. Yes, light attackers still existed, but I think there are more "raider" style lights than "scout" styled ones now. (I also often see the ECM lights acting like they are invincible and charge the whole enemy force on their own, instead of scouting or staying near some support. Some of them must be shocked when they end up first ones dead...)

[Nikoliy]

OriginalTibs, on 12 December 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

A headshot downs a mech after only 18 damage.

Just thought I would point that out.

A head shot takes 33 dam. Armor 18 + internals 15....

[Nathan Bloodguard]

as a former mechwarrior player from MW2 and up, i thought i knew what i was getting into. Well its not the same... I used to line my shots up great, pull the trigger then dodge. not anymore with this game. need to keep that crosshair on them the whole laser shot, and that is something i find difficult. Getting a lot better now, but it does take time.

I do agree with the trial mechs and new players and stuff with team unbalancing, but if you limit it they might not get into any matches then. Would be better if they had a mech learner match, where it was just you learning the basics. I also agree it would be better to have voice chat for the scouts. but it is still possable to notify your friends of enemy location. One way is shoot lasers at the enemies direction... most team mates look there then.

The spotting assist does still exsist, but is harder now with ECM, please note that ECM is a new patch and some of what i state is a little out of date or just harder (used to be an lrm commando cause i go tired of tagging for noone, and while i was also learning to shoot those darned lasers as they shoot differantly then any other MW. They shoot closer to lore now which i like, just not used to it. Now i shoot two Large lasers on my Raven... just not at 120+kph)

[Sifright]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 12 December 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

as a former mechwarrior player from MW2 and up, i thought i knew what i was getting into. Well its not the same... I used to line my shots up great, pull the trigger then dodge. not anymore with this game. need to keep that crosshair on them the whole laser shot, and that is something i find difficult. Getting a lot better now, but it does take time.

I do agree with the trial mechs and new players and stuff with team unbalancing, but if you limit it they might not get into any matches then. Would be better if they had a mech learner match, where it was just you learning the basics. I also agree it would be better to have voice chat for the scouts. but it is still possable to notify your friends of enemy location. One way is shoot lasers at the enemies direction... most team mates look there then.

The spotting assist does still exsist, but is harder now with ECM, please note that ECM is a new patch and some of what i state is a little out of date or just harder (used to be an lrm commando cause i go tired of tagging for noone, and while i was also learning to shoot those darned lasers as they shoot differantly then any other MW. They shoot closer to lore now which i like, just not used to it. Now i shoot two Large lasers on my Raven... just not at 120+kph)

Some advice for you if you are running a raven switch those large lasers out to Mediums or medium pulses, you can't effectively cool those two large lasers in a raven and you will get better mileage with a smaller laser. Plus that gives you room for either a larger engine more heat sinks or other weapons on your raven.

Switch to double heat sinks as early as you can.

Secondly when aiming your lasers on any target moving more than 70 KPH you will need to lead the target, in some games you will find even really slow mechs you need to lead your shots or you will miss.

The hit detection is like mech warrior 4 only worse

Depending on your own ping and the ping of the player you are against even with lasers you might need to lead the target by two to three mech strides.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Only two energy slots, thus the larges. Have double heat sinks also, but don't have enough c bills for that engine. Saving up for 3L the last Raven I'll need for elites .

Once I have all three I'll starting changing engine size. Till then I'll be a 100-300 damage lightweight.

Oh and thanks for the advise.

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 12 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Kinrove]

PFFFF.
Damage isnt all in the game. there are more things to do in battle...
LRM boats can try to spot for them self...
And now when Ecm are there someone needs to get there to scramble theres Ecm or to use TAG.
And that just some tactics "the low damage dealer" do

Edited by Kinrove, 12 December 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Adrian Steel]

Tesunie, on 12 December 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

People using me as nothing more than a meat shield. I'm not a bad player. I've been known to see someone in trouble and come rushing to their aid.

I've seen this often. It's not always to your benefit to go rushing to someone's aid. When I see a mech in trouble, it's not my knee-jerk reaction to help them. Whether he did something stupid, or his actions were justified and he's just in bad luck, I ask myself a quick question:

Will I risk my mech too heavily to save him from the fire?

If the answer is no, then I'll certainly help him out, even if I think he did everything wrong to get there. He could be invaluable later on in the match, even if only as a meatshield.

Far too often, though, I see people overextend themselves (clearly not suicide), get blown up and automatically disconnect; possibly from rage at the prospect that guys like me didn't help him when he rushed headlong into 8 enemies.

I'm looking out for number one, and his growing stack of C-Bills. I've come to terms that my friendlies will lead me to victory only to the extent that their competence allows. I can't throw 7 people ropes to get out of all the holes they dig for themselves when I only have one to use.

[Sean von Steinike]

If we win? No I don't care. If we lose? Still don't care.