1329 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vulpesveritas, on 10 July 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Now, how is the FX-6200 a horrible CPU when it is on par with an i5 in multithread exactly? I know everyone hates on the bulldozer architecture and AMD's poor implementation of marketing, but I feel it is still wrong to say their all horrible just because of that.
As an FYI, I was able to fit a better motherboard, PSU, RAM, an OC'd 7870, AND an option of a Mushkin Sandforce w/ sync NAND, or a Crucial M4, for that $900 budget. Though an HDD might be a better option for him, I don't know other than he asked for an SSD.

Pretty much the entire tech community, save for AMD die hards recognize the fact the bulldozer just didn't do it, its just not a massive leap over Phenom II chips in gaming terms, the 6200 and 8120 are really the only "decent" Bulldozer chips. I appreciate your argument over multi thread but lets be honest, every tech websites verdict of Bulldozer being laclustre compared to what was promised can't be wrong can it?
Even the gaming websites that don't focus on tech but produce monthly builds for people don't recommend bulldozer chips. On the low end they go for i3 2120's (not sure i agree with that the 6200 is clearly better)
I knew you'd pick out an Asrock board that would be "better", but RAM wise lets be honest through Patriot,Corsair,G.Skill there really is not much performance difference to call them better.

7870 definitely better not going to argue there. That seasonic PSU is pretty good, which did you go for?

As to SSD, he will be better off day to day with a standard HDD, SSD for OS and games thats pretty standard. I certainly wouldn't recommend just having a SSD on its own that will bog down with downloads,music and junk.

Edited by DV McKenna, 10 July 2012 - 02:26 AM.

[Vulpesveritas]

DV McKenna, on 10 July 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Pretty much the entire tech community, save for AMD die hards recognize the fact the bulldozer just didn't do it, its just not a massive leap over Phenom II chips in gaming terms, the 6200 and 8120 are really the only "decent" Bulldozer chips. I appreciate your argument over multi thread but lets be honest, every tech websites verdict of Bulldozer being laclustre compared to what was promised can't be wrong can it?
Even the gaming websites that don't focus on tech but produce monthly builds for people don't recommend bulldozer chips. On the low end they go for i3 2120's (not sure i agree with that the 6200 is clearly better)
I knew you'd pick out an Asrock board that would be "better", but RAM wise lets be honest through Patriot,Corsair,G.Skill there really is not much performance difference to call them better.

7870 definitely better not going to argue there. That seasonic PSU is pretty good, which did you go for?

As to SSD, he will be better off day to day with a standard HDD, SSD for OS and games thats pretty standard. I certainly wouldn't recommend just having a SSD on its own that will bog down with downloads,music and junk.

990fx board with 8+2 phase power, but yes on the motherboard.
RAM wise, it's not a huge difference, but it is CAS 8 instead of CAS 9. http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820148518
PSU wise, this; http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817139020 which would given enough overhead for overclocking or a second GPU in the future.

And yeah on the SSD, but if he already has a HDD he could use that after all. But as I stated, I don't know.

As far as bulldozer, it was nowhere near as good as advertised, but the FX-6200 is slightly faster than a Phenom II X6 1100t, so it's not a bad choice by any means still, and can overclock of course. Plus there is the CPU socket upgradability there, should the OP want that.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 10 July 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

So working from both builds. Drop the Seasonic PSU replace with your Corsair.
Suddenly the 7850 goes up to a 7870 http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814131466
(Not the OC version you picked but OC it yourself )
$890

So IMO that build is better it matches your build in terms of power on the GPU side but has a better CPU, it's just dependent on the SSD issue.

[Vulpesveritas]

DV McKenna, on 10 July 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

So working from both builds. Drop the Seasonic PSU replace with your Corsair.
Suddenly the 7850 goes up to a 7870 http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814131466
(Not the OC version you picked but OC it yourself )
$890

So IMO that build is better it matches your build in terms of power on the GPU side but has a better CPU, it's just dependent on the SSD issue.

And if the SSD issue goes out the door, or he already has an HDD, he has an option of a Geforce GTX 670 by going AMD, or if he wants to upgrade in the future without a complete system revamp, he would still probably be best going AMD.
And actually it is that GPU, if you haven't noticed, it has a 100mhz core clock OC, and a 25mhz memory OC. The PCS+ PCB design is great all around too.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vulpesveritas, on 10 July 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

And if the SSD issue goes out the door, or he already has an HDD, he has an option of a Geforce GTX 670 by going AMD, or if he wants to upgrade in the future without a complete system revamp, he would still probably be best going AMD.
And actually it is that GPU, if you haven't noticed, it has a 100mhz core clock OC, and a 25mhz memory OC. The PCS+ PCB design is great all around too.

Ah i thought you went for their vortex II version.

True on the 670 but the 7870 plays todays games and will do so for the foreseeable future, but the 3450 is a much better CPU.

The sweetspot FPS for gamers is generally considered 60 (reality its less a minimum of 30)
(HD pack Extreme settings at 1080P crysis 2)
The 670 hits 64 (DX9) and 88(Dx11)
The 7870 hits 60 (Dx9) and 47 (Dx11)

Now all of those results are in the perfectly playable range the difference is in $299 and $399 if you can see $100 worth of difference in those FPS visually then go for it.

Edited by DV McKenna, 10 July 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[Vulpesveritas]

DV McKenna, on 10 July 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Ah i thought you went for their vortex II version.

True on the 670 but the 7870 plays todays games and will do so for the foreseeable future, but the 3450 is a much better CPU.

The sweetspot FPS for gamers is generally considered 60 (reality its less a minimum of 30)
(HD pack Extreme settings at 1080P crysis 2)
The 670 hits 64 (DX9) and 88(Dx11)
The 7870 hits 60 (Dx9) and 47 (Dx11)

Now all of those results are in the perfectly playable range the difference is in $299 and $399 if you can see $100 worth of difference in those FPS visually then go for it.

At the same time, why go for the CPU with the shorter lasting socket then? When in multitasking you won't see any difference between the AMD and Intel CPU, and unless he is playing RTS titles there won't be as much of a difference in games as moving up to a 670. And with that 670 he could hit a straight 60fps in DX11, unlike an i5 with a 7870.
And even without that 670, should he have a standard hard drive already, an SSD would make far more of a difference in day-to-day computing than a CPU upgrade there of course.
And even without the SSD, and putting in a standard HDD, he could fit in an aftermarket cooler otherwise, which would allow for overclocking, or having a quieter overall system.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 10 July 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

How much does the human eye see? Some people no doubt can see the difference, but really anything not below 30 is fine overclock the 7870 (as they are good at it) and your in the 50's, overclock the 670 and your into numbers you can't see.

We go round on this upgrade merry go round alot.

They Ivybridge CPU will be good for what 4-6 years, the 6200 probably just about the same. At which point AM3+ will be dead or nearing it post piledriver which could still turn out to be no good lets be fair Bulldozer was hyped up into nothing, and i sincerely hope piledriver comes good but if it only offers performance similar to ivybridge then sorry thats just not enough.

You know as well as i do, a SSD effects day to day more than gaming even more so in multiplayer.
Great so your in first, now wait for the guy playing on his AMD Turon laptop to load in.

My main point btw that got lost in our latest discussion was $900 = £576. So thats a budget build where i come from, a SSD shouldn't even enter the consideration at that price point.
As a later upgrade certainly.

Edited by DV McKenna, 10 July 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[QuantumQrack]

Wow, great joystick guide! Anyway, I have a question about fastening joystick/throttle to desk somehow? does anybody really do this at all or is there really a need to?

[Catamount]

DV McKenna, on 10 July 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

How much does the human eye see? Some people no doubt can see the difference, but really anything not below 30 is fine overclock the 7870 (as they are good at it) and your in the 50's, overclock the 670 and your into numbers you can't see.

The rule of thumb for a long time has been that 60fps appeared fluid, but differences are discernable even above that (not into the 120hz range, afaik, but the human eye seems to have little trouble discerning, say, the difference between 70fps and 90fps, in my experience).

40+fps is sometimes at least acceptable, depending on the game , but I wouldn't want below the 50-60 range for a shooter. Remember that unlike TV, a computer game is interactive, and lag from sub-60 framerates is very noticeable. It might even hamper performance. I used to play shooters a lot on underpowered systems and be limited to about 30fps and it was abysmal; once I stepped up to 60+fps when I built my first dedicated gaming rig, my KDR doubled.


Now, the 7870 is not a bad card; it's actually quite a good card. THe problem is that one is going to bottleneck on a 7870 lonnnnnnnnnnng before one runs into meaningful CPU bottlenecks, in all but a very tiny handful of games.

[Vulpesveritas]

Not to mentiin, even bumping up to a 670, if I went down to a 970 chipset I could fit a 60GB or so boot/ one or two game drive. Once again assuming he has an HDD, but even then with a 7870 the story remains the same, just with either a 90ish drive or a 60 and an aftermarket heatsink.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Catamount, on 10 July 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

The rule of thumb for a long time has been that 60fps appeared fluid, but differences are discernable even above that (not into the 120hz range, afaik, but the human eye seems to have little trouble discerning, say, the difference between 70fps and 90fps, in my experience).

40+fps is sometimes at least acceptable, depending on the game , but I wouldn't want below the 50-60 range for a shooter. Remember that unlike TV, a computer game is interactive, and lag from sub-60 framerates is very noticeable. It might even hamper performance. I used to play shooters a lot on underpowered systems and be limited to about 30fps and it was abysmal; once I stepped up to 60+fps when I built my first dedicated gaming rig, my KDR doubled.


Now, the 7870 is not a bad card; it's actually quite a good card. THe problem is that one is going to bottleneck on a 7870 lonnnnnnnnnnng before one runs into meaningful CPU bottlenecks, in all but a very tiny handful of games.

On a fast paced twtich shooter sure here? you know as well as i do in a sim based game 30/40 FPS is perfectly playable.
Those settings on on Extreme with the HD patch, so in a standard game without HD content the 7870 is perfectly fine to achieve 50/60 fps,

Edited by DV McKenna, 10 July 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Stray Ion]

Instead of making a new thread, I would like others to know that Amazon has a Sapphire Radeon HD6950 for $219 plus a $20 rebate.

[Catamount]

DV McKenna, on 10 July 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

On a fast paced twtich shooter sure here? you know as well as i do in a sim based game 30/40 FPS is perfectly playable.
Those settings on on Extreme with the HD patch, so in a standard game without HD content the 7870 is perfectly fine to achieve 50/60 fps,

Again, I'm not denying that the 7870 is a great card. It's powerful and frugal on power, and I would kill to have one over my two 5770s (crossfire was a fun one-time experiment, but seriously, multi-GPU solutions blow). I'm just saying that it's not worth stepping down from a more powerful GPU to one in order to get a more powerful CPU, because one will begin encountering large numbers of games a 7870 won't be able to play long before one bottlenecks on a less powerful CPU.

[CJF Ronin]

lol my stick is 10 years old............guess i better run out for a new one

[E_Crow]

possibly the most helpful post out there about control sticks- thanks for making it!

[Dhimmi]

still sticking to the original cyborg, still a great stick imho

[Arthwys IronHand]

Butcherd, on 20 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Ok, im stuck between buying the Thrustmaster T-16000M and Saitek PS38 Cyborg F.L.Y5. I like the throttle and looks of the FLY 5 and not the T-16000. But it sounds like the quality is better with the T-16000.

Has anybody used these 2, and can recommend one over the other?

Buying from Amazon the prices are almost the same. So price isnt an issue.

I'm a little biased but the Cyborg F.L.Y. 5 is stupidly customizeable. Between the custom presets you can configure, and various physical adjustments the stick can make it's worth the money.

[Stedfast]

Thanks, I'm planning to buy a joystick for MWO, and had no clue what to look for until this post.

[Viper69]

I used a Cyborg 3d Gold for many years. I was sad when saitek discontinued it, fully adjustable and very comfortable. I now use all CH products and never looked back, they are sturdy and well built.

[Fooooo]

Great post there mate, very informative.

I currently own the Thrustmaster Hotas and whilst it is a little "plastic" looking its a fairly robust controller in terms of durability

I've dropped / knocked it off the desk by accident a few times and its still as good as new.

There is a **** you can turn underneath the stick which does tighten and loosen the stick like you assumed. However I find leaving it on a fairly loose setting the best as I don't need too much force to move the stick from centre then, I can just use my fingers to give slight movements if you know what i mean.

It can also be used on the PS3 as well, all you have to do is flip a switch.

In terms of accuracy i'd say its decent, but probably not as good as a high end stick. It does fine in IL-2 , MX simulator & X3 (which is basically all i use it for atm) so im quite happy with it for the price I payed.

Again, great write up.