229 replies to this topic

[bantapoo]

assault mode should be TDM, as conquest does a better at the base capture mechanic.
not enough ammo to finish the match? mechs are meant to be versatile.
it's a good way to deter OP boats, and make them less desirable in TDM.
(and this is coming from an srm, ac20, etc boat lover).

Edited by bantapoo, 07 January 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Sayyid]

Agent of Change, on 07 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Then it wasn't directed at you, I did however see several rants by Tera in the 11 pages of this thread and was addressing the previous champion of TDM, but if the shoe fits....

Oh ok, I went back and seen all the posts you are talking about, I never bothered to read through 11pages of BS, to state what I thought.

The game already has TDM.

[Agent of Change]

Sayyid, on 07 January 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Oh ok, I went back and seen all the posts you are talking about, I never bothered to read through 11pages of BS, to state what I thought.

The game already has TDM.

I only quoted you because your post summed up my point, i was just elaborating.

[Penance]

huh? the game has 2 tdm modes already.

[Wintersdark]

Penance, on 07 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

huh? the game has 2 tdm modes already.

Precisely. Despite the unfounded ranting in the thread, the reality is that both Conquest and Assault play out like TDM 99% of the time. Look at the "How many Conquest games have been won via points" poll, or how often actual Assault matches end via capture (particulary if you ignore captures when the game is already well over).

[Kraven Kor]

Jadel Blade, on 15 December 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

None of this makes any sense at all.

Every novel ever published features battles between mechs with no objective apart from battling with other mechs.

.....

As far as the shut down thing other people posted. Yeah thats the issue isnt it. Im sure theres some reasonable solution somewhere.

You obviously didn't actually read the books; they were fighting over objectives. Towns, planets, spaceports, Star League weapon caches, factories, HyperPulse Generators, and - most importantly - water.

Granted, the books never featured an edge-of-your-seat suspenseful account of how Carson Graylisle (or whatever his name was) had to survive for two whole minutes inside a red chalk outline to win the day...

[Teralitha]

Updated the topic.

[Teralitha]

Penance, on 07 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

huh? the game has 2 tdm modes already.

Where?

[Davers]

Teralitha, on 24 March 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Updated the topic.

I wish you good luck on your quest Don Quixote. I used to be anti-TDM. But then I accepted that we would probably get it. Now I guess I am kind of sad that we won't see it. Do I think it would really add anything to the gameplay? No, but it wouldn't really hurt it too much either.

[TehSBGX]

JPsi, on 15 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

If its going to come in, it should come in via the Solaris Arena format. Unfortunately theres been scant info on if solaris will make it into this game. Not that tdm is bad, it just feels like it belongs there.

I'm also all for it, it would do a lot towards reducing the many rage threads about people base capping. Those that don't want to be burdened by having to defend their base, would have somewhere to go.

Well if Deathmatches are a solaris thing does that mean we can get free for all deathmatch in solaris too? I'd be happy if ffa and team dm were lobby only game types to be honest.

[Marj]

From the locked thread that links to this one:

Critical Fumble, on 24 March 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Good generals don't up and say, "Hey, lets go slug it out with those dudes over there!" They will always try to intimidate them into surrender or bleed the other side out before trying to fight a major force, such as in


Which was a show of force to try to get the peasants to sell them oil again, not an attempt to conquer America.

There is time and a place for a kill-em-all objective, but the point is never the actual violence. You might be ordered to eliminate a scouting party to limit their intelligence, or intercept a group advancing on an allied position in order to protect it, or cut off a retreat to whittle down their forces. The point is winning, and sometimes violence is the way to do that.

Oh, wait, is this a thread about the merits of including a TDM mode

Trust me, I'm familiar with hit and run tactics. But they won't make four lights equal to four assaults. Which is the point of what I was saying waaaaaaay back in the first one of mine you quoted. Without an objective, the lights have to directly engage the assaults, and the assaults don't have to chase them. I'm not saying no TDM, I'm saying do it right.

I agree, but I think that's best left to the metagame in CW. If you want objectives, having a proper assault mode (1 defender, 1 attacker) would be better. Also, I'm not saying all games should be TDM, just that it is significantly different to the current modes and is worth having.

As for 4 lights beating 4 assaults...sure that would be a bad situation...but 4 lights wouldn't beat 4 assaults in assault mode either. The assaults would just camp their base...forcing the lights to directly engage them. I've see this exact situation before. If you had four asaults and a base to defend against 4 lights what would you do? Assault isn't any better than TDM in this regard.

The idea behind TDM is that you'd use lights as scouts and spotters...not as front line combat units. With good scouting you can then take up a position to exploit any weakness in the enemy's loadout the scouts have identified. You'd be able to exploit the extra speed of mediums to work as effective harassers that can hit an assault without being hit back since the mediums are free to attack from any angle they wish. You could use long range unit effectively ranther than having to brawl when the enemy rushes your base through the cave/buildings/hills etc. You could use heavies and assaults to crush an enemy you've baited into a choke point with your lights.

I don't see how assault is better than TDM. Do you think being forced to sit your four assaults on your base because the enemy has four lights is fun? Do you think just taking 8 3L's in conquest is fun? It's certainly effective, but not my idea of fun. Surely you've seen that the team with the most lights tends to win conquest games... where's the strategy in that?

"I'm not saying no TDM, I'm saying do it right."
I'd like to see your suggestions .

For those that didn't see the previous thread, TDM is about manouvering not just fighting. If you just want to fight, then sure TDM isn't for you. But it's good for those that prefer a bit more strategy.

Edited by Marj, 24 March 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Teralitha]

der langsamere, on 24 March 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

yay, due to the locking of the other thread, this is now the default thread for this conversation

Yes, the mods wanted to funnel all the feedback for TDM into one topic, and this is it.

From the quote by critical fumble... I am gleening that he think slight mechs have no purpose in TDM. Oh how wrong he is... well... maybe in a random pug with no communication.... but in a team with communication and coordination a light mech as a scout is absolutely vital to victory. I would never go without one as a team leader.

In assault mode I send the light mechs to go cap, but not to win, just to get the enemy to split up, then I would order my team in to destroy the disoriented pugs. Rinse and repeat. Same thing every game. Gets old. Cant do that in TDM, no bases... Have to get creative and actually think on my feet, create new strategies on the fly because every game is unpredictable. It is very challenging, and thats the kind of game that highly competitive players want. Anything less is boring.

Assault mode is great for entry level players and casuals. (Or for team oriented players... its target practice and build testing) But thats all it is. There needs to be the next challenge level up from that. Team Death Match 8 man premade is that next level.

If I had to guess who the primary supporters for TDM are... I would say its the coordinated 8 man teams. Just a guess...

Edited by Teralitha, 24 March 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[1sh0t]

The inclusion of TDM is such a reasonable request. Kind of hard to believe it wasn't the first gametype created...

[Critical Fumble]

Marj, on 24 March 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Spoiler

From the locked thread that links to this one:


I agree, but I think that's best left to the metagame in CW. If you want objectives, having a proper assault mode (1 defender, 1 attacker) would be better. Also, I'm not saying all games should be TDM, just that it is significantly different to the current modes and is worth having.
As for 4 lights beating 4 assaults...sure that would be a bad situation...but 4 lights wouldn't beat 4 assaults in assault mode either. The assaults would just camp their base...forcing the lights to directly engage them. I've see this exact situation before. If you had four asaults and a base to defend against 4 lights what would you do? Assault isn't any better than TDM in this regard.
The idea behind TDM is that you'd use lights as scouts and spotters...not as front line combat units. With good scouting you can then take up a position to exploit any weakness in the enemy's loadout the scouts have identified. You'd be able to exploit the extra speed of mediums to work as effective harassers that can hit an assault without being hit back since the mediums are free to attack from any angle they wish. You could use long range unit effectively ranther than having to brawl when the enemy rushes your base through the cave/buildings/hills etc. You could use heavies and assaults to crush an enemy you've baited into a choke point with your lights.
I don't see how assault is better than TDM. Do you think being forced to sit your four assaults on your base because the enemy has four lights is fun? Do you think just taking 8 3L's in conquest is fun? It's certainly effective, but not my idea of fun. Surely you've seen that the team with the most lights tends to win conquest games... where's the strategy in that?
"I'm not saying no TDM, I'm saying do it right."
I'd like to see your suggestions .
For those that didn't see the previous thread, TDM is about manouvering not just fighting. If you just want to fight, then sure TDM isn't for you. But it's good for those that prefer a bit more strategy.

First, imbalanced tonnage techniques on the two modes.

In a TDM setting, no one wins if there's no engagement. The lights don't want to engage all the assaults at once, so they run. The assaults want to engage, but have to choose either sticking in a tight formation to hunt or fanning out to get more chances to fire at the lights. The first choice just won't work, they're too slow and the lights won't stick around with that much firepower focused in the area. The second option would bait the lights into fighting some, but they'ed have to flee quickly after striking so that they don't get focus fired. End result - most likely no one wins, and everyone is frustrated.

In an assault setting the lights still will not engage, and the ball is in the assault mechs' court. They could all camp the base if they don't mind waiting it out, but if they want to try to win they need to do something. Most likely they should split into two groups, one camping and one going for the cap. The lights then have an opening. They should attack the smaller group or camping group if they are equal sizes. End result - someone wins, and 25-75% of the players are frustrated.

The point being, tonnage mismatches are no fun, but the existence of capture points keeps the game up in the air even if one side has an optimal team and the other does not. Which, if you had carefully read what I initially said, you would have followed.

Quote

TDM also needs rigid weight matching and/or asymmetric teams based on tonnage. In assault/conquest a 25 ton can be valuable as a single player because of the Achilles's Heel, but TDM comes down to a brawl, so there's much less use for a scout mech.

IE: diminishing returns. A scout can be of use, a second scout is somewhat less so, the third even less so. The optimized mech killers are the workhorses, though, and suffer much less loss of usefulness when there are several of them. The current system says Awsome=Atlas when making a match, but would be better served saying Awsome=80 tons of anything; at least for a TDM setting.

Lights are effective in the game at this point because teams are disorganized and the information passed to the players is pretty poor. Given some organization and information, there's no reason for a team of eight lights beating a balanced team in conquest, even with how half-baked chunks of the game are right now.

Sure, there's a strategy to TDM, just like there is to assault and conquest. But every time I see someone complain about getting capped, its always a "Stand and fight, knave!" attitude and, if its on the forum, followed by a remove or limit caps or add TDM statement. Do the math on why there'd be a perception that TDM = fighting.

[Teralitha]

Critical Fumble, on 25 March 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

text

What does tonnage balance have to do with any game mode? Thats a matchmaking issue.

Edited by Teralitha, 25 March 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[ryoma]

Just implement it as a game type and change the match filter to "bases" and "no bases." If you observe community favoritism, then do something about it after you know its an issue instead of limiting the game based on possible issues.

Remember. You miss every shot that you don't take.

[Lyrik]

TDM is for all the noobs who need 3rd person view to pilot their mechs :-P

Teralitha, on 25 March 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

What does tonnage balance have to do with any game mode? Thats a matchmaking issue.

TDM would finally transform MWO into Assault Online. Even less reason to bring a Hunch instead of an Atlas. That's why we need a tonnage system instead of matchmaking. There are not enough players to match elo and tonnage. It even doesn't work with elo -.-

[Marj]

"The point being, tonnage mismatches are no fun, but the existence of capture points keeps the game up in the air even if one side has an optimal team and the other does not. Which, if you had carefully read what I initially said, you would have followed.
"
Tonnage balance is important and if TDM were implemented I'd like to see either a tonnage or BV limit.

"In an assault setting the lights still will not engage, and the ball is in the assault mechs' court. They could all camp the base if they don't mind waiting it out, but if they want to try to win they need to do something."

What about the lights? You assume the assaults 'have to do something'. But the lights don't have any options at all until the assaults do something silly like split their force. I've had one game like this. My team was mostly heavies/assaults with a couple of lights to scout. We sat on base, got rushed by 8 lights and killed them all. Had another where we got rushed by 8 mediums and killed them all. I've never had a match where I sat on base while 8 lights waited for me to move off. If I did, I wouldn't move. I might as well just walk off the edge of the map for all the good it would do. The bases just mean the assaults get to camp on their base instead of standing on some random point on the map waiting for the lights who will never engage. but then...who would run all lights in TDM? it'd be like running 8 DDC's on conquest now...I just don't see it as an issue.

Any game mode in MW fails if the teams aren't balanced anyway. It's most apparent with ELO in conquest. When one side gets more lights they usually win. I think the lack of balance should be fixed, not used as a reason against TDM.

"A scout can be of use, a second scout is somewhat less so, the third even less so. The optimized mech killers are the workhorses, though, and suffer much less loss of usefulness when there are several of them. The current system says Awsome=Atlas when making a match, but would be better served saying Awsome=80 tons of anything; at least for a TDM setting. "

Agreed.

"Lights are effective in the game at this point because teams are disorganized and the information passed to the players is pretty poor. Given some organization and information, there's no reason for a team of eight lights beating a balanced team in conquest, even with how half-baked chunks of the game are right now. "

You can win by capping more points. 8 lights can accomplish this by being fast, they can stay as a pack and still cap quickly. Slower teams need to split their forces if they want to match the cap speed of 8 lights working as a pack. I think you know what happens when 8 ravens run into 2 atlases. If the lights see something they can't handle, they'll just hit another point. As I said, haven't lost a game with this strategy. I should probably give it another go with state rewind though.

"Sure, there's a strategy to TDM, just like there is to assault and conquest. But every time I see someone complain about getting capped, its always a "Stand and fight, knave!" attitude and, if its on the forum, followed by a remove or limit caps or add TDM statement. Do the math on why there'd be a perception that TDM = fighting."

Yep, this is the attitude I'd like to see change. Probably a futile effort. I bought the legendary founders pack based on the hope I'd get TDM and some serious strategic competition, not 15 (more often 5) minute stand up fights. I'm hoping enough people from the old MW leagues will speak up on this thread to make the devs change their minds.

[Marj]

Lyrik, on 25 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

TDM is for all the noobs who need 3rd person view to pilot their mechs :-P


TDM would finally transform MWO into Assault Online. Even less reason to bring a Hunch instead of an Atlas. That's why we need a tonnage system instead of matchmaking. There are not enough players to match elo and tonnage. It even doesn't work with elo -.-

All game modes need balance to work. TDM is no exception. And if you think TDM = RAAAAARGH FIGHT then you need to read what the people advocating it have been writing. If it was as you describe no one would be asking for it.

[Teralitha]

Im sure the devs might want to know.... just how much support does this possible game mode have. So far there has been a number of redundant arguments against it, except for 1, which can be debunked also. If TDM mode has only 1 flaw, Id say thats pretty good, compared to assault or conquest mode, which have quite a few flaws.

Lets get it in the game before you lose more of your player base.

Edited by Teralitha, 25 March 2013 - 06:17 AM.