231 replies to this topic

[Captain Midnight]

Desirsar, on 15 December 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I see the poll isn't exactly going your way. I still like two suggestions I've seen in this forum : A single ECCM should counter all ECM in range, ECM should not affect locking by a mech itself inside the bubble (or be negated by BAP, only inside the bubble), and LRMs should have their tabletop direct fire mode.

Every poll I make is to trick people into posting in my thread, once you respond to a poll (and how could you not? it's a four click way to express your opinion online!) then the thread has a star in it and people feel compelled to keep coming back to threads they've already been to, like a killer returning to the scene of the crime. I could care less what anyone votes although it would tickle me if the forum ever came down the right way on an issue instead of keeping their OP BS and citing the real world (lol at "missiles should be good they are tracking heat signatures") and table top rules instead of solid game design in order to support keeping their BS. Guess what this isn't called battletech (a failed game), it's not called multiplayer battletech (also a failed game so take that to heart), and it definitely isn't called battletech/mechwarrior (AOL-Timewarner anyone?). Good game design is paramount, not blind adherence to the past or FOTM builds. ED: I think the forums are mostly hardcore battletech fans, definitely more than half and I'd say and probably almost all.

MECHwarrior is a proud franchise that has always been fun to play and has entertained a loooot of people, it has such mass appeal, it's up there with age of empires in terms of beloved by many. Battletech on the other hand is extremely niche, I have a feeling that every battletech fan with a modern computer bought a founders package, but that not every founders package was bought by a battletech fan. That puts hardcore battletech fans at like what, 25,000-50,000 people IN THE WORLD or something? Who cares what you think is my opinion and this game is gonna suck if the devs listen to you.

Every time someone says "This game should be like that other game from that bankrupt company, you know, the game that failed!" I die a little inside.

Anyways, that's a brief little rant against most of the people in this thread, as for the ones who actually addressed game balance issues on to you guys...

Kaziganthi, on 15 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Problem is, everyone is lumping LRMs in with Streaks. <SNIP>

Imagine ECM is not in the game, and you load in on caustic valley, at the factory spawn. Guess where you are headed? E5/D4. Hold on the edge of the Calderra behind cover (so they can't LRM you) and camp until the other team gets bored of camping and rushes out and dies, or your team (assuming pugs) get bored and rushes out and dies. At this point people on the team that rushed out and tried to have fun start saying "stupid noob team".

This is not tactical, this is repeatable and almost scientific. That is what EVERY game of Caustic valley was. Oh wait, you're right, I forgot some other strategies... Like the 3-line rush :-/

LRMs are completely OP, they need their damage brought WAY down otherwise all they encourage is boating and camping, neither of which is good for the game. LRMs are why most maps only had one strategy "camp this spot that LRMs can't hit", why some spawns were considered "better" than other spawns, and why no one besides missile users got to have any fun.

Vernius Ix, on 15 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

I run two SRM six's on mine. Your premise is faulty, your conclusions are based on your emotional feeling rather than on the hard data.

Try again please

Well based on the fact that the devs invented ECM to destroy overpowered SSRM2s I'd say the usage stats that I don't have access to are pretty damning. Furthermore, do you win? Do you pug? Any build on any mech can win in a pug, but can it win in 8s? No. SRM6 ravens cannot win in 8s without being carried. The Raven 3L is the only light mech in this game because no other light mech can beat it in a 1v1 if it is packing streaks, except another Raven 3L packing streaks. In the 8v8 environment you are dead weight. In the 4s environment you can do a medium laser yen-lo-wang with no weapon in the arm and win, I've had that guy farming c-bills in his zombie wang on my team before and I carried him to a win, so that guy could come on the forums and post the same crap you are posting.

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

Because every class of weapon has a different advantages and disadvantages

.

Streaks lock-on, but hit random locations, and use ammo.

Lasers don't lock-on, but can pinpoint specific locations, do their damage over time, but don't use ammo.

Ballistics don't lock-on, can pinpoint specific locations, do lots of damage at once, but use ammo.

I still haven't heard anything but visceral disgust when I say that "hey maybe medium lasers should lock on too and hit a random torso!" Because of how OBVIOUSLY bad of an idea it is for a weapon to do that... However with SSRM2 it's okay because different weapons have different advantages and disadvantages, yeah, that makes a lot of sense! Buzzwords!

Last but not least, I think we all want this game to succeed so try and take a step back and see this game from the perspective of all 16 players in a game; LOWS stop looking like such a good system... Anyone who hasn't had the chance to pilot a 3L please do so 2xMPL+Tag/3ML + 2xSRM2 + XL295 + ECM + DHS + Endo, FF if you want to max armor but you can strip the arms and legs a tiny bit if you want to save money. I think anyone who runs that build will stop thinking that streaks are balanced if they have a single shred of objective reasoning in them.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Murdalizer]

Brainstorming here..

Chainfiring(rapid fireing) ssrms will result in increased heat output, because the targeting computer is working overtime and using more power from the powerplant.

or

It will cause an overload in the targeting computer..resulting in a reboot..you lose lock and maybe the next lock takes longer to acquire..because of the reboot.

thoughts?


And please all you TT buffs..dont shoot this down just because its not in the TT rules pls...lets just make our own inhouse rules.

Edited by Murdalizer, 15 December 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Orzorn]

BigJim, on 15 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Your reasoning is entirely backward, and you leap to the wrong conclusion.

Consider; You say that the Raven w/ECM is so good is because it makes Streaks useless, while being able to use it's own (like I said very clearly in my first post).

Well, who would care about that, if streaks weren't all-powerful to begin with?

I would care about it anyways because weapon exclusivity is toxic to the game.

Quote

If streaks were not god missiles, then it wouldn't matter if ECM negates them or not.

See above. ECM countering streaks directly leads to weapon exclusivity.

Quote

Rather than giving everybody silly weapons, make the single weapon more sensible.
Much better solution.

Or, you know, do both of those things.

Not once did I say that SSRMs weren't stupidly powerful. The main complaint that I had in that particular post is that now, stupidly powerful weapons are exclusive to certain mechs.

Remove ECM's ability to stop SSRMs, and also implement the SSRM spread (hitting arms and legs).

[zverofaust]

Was really disappointed upon seeing how they implemented ECM, but not really surprised, it's PGI after all.

I don't know why they didn't put more thought and creativity into it (or anything else). ECM would have been really cool as a more proactive system that you can specifically target enemy Mechs with, not some auto-bubble of super immunity only countered by other auto-bubbles of super immunity. That's just.. bah, boring, bland, shallow...

[Orzorn]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

I still haven't heard anything but visceral disgust when I say that "hey maybe medium lasers should lock on too and hit a random torso!" Because of how OBVIOUSLY bad of an idea it is for a weapon to do that... However with SSRM2 it's okay because different weapons have different advantages and disadvantages, yeah, that makes a lot of sense! Buzzwords!

You should become more informed.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1500585

Quote

On the SSRM direct front, another fix has gone in where the SSRMs will now use arm and leg joints as viable lock-on targets. This spreads damage out more. I'll be working with David B on testing to see if the current implementation of SSRMs along with the reduced cockpit shake and smoke reduction will be enough of a nerf to help counter the SSRM effectiveness without having to directly hit damage/cooldown/heat etc.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Kernfeuer, on 15 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

--->SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot-->Whine fail from an guy who gots killed to often from this weapon
--->Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio?--->easy to answer..we in Mechwarrior..you dont like it?..go and play Tetris
--->Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills----> hmm unaffected by lag huh ..seems not the weapon is the problem or iam wrong?..and by the way..In every Mech whit Every! weapon you will need skill(and some brain)

and about the rest...well yes an commando can take down an heavy..even an mighty atlas so what? and at least..Ssrm (also called just streaks) are not Op anymore the damage output is moderat...after tweaking its not hit then Ct only (think ongoing patches they will Hit the Whole mech) so this is just an pointless troll post (man dammit why i response to it anyway? )..well whatever Streaks are fine..deal whit it

and what are the chances that you're in an raven cashcow trolling back??? do tell.

zverofaust, on 15 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Was really disappointed upon seeing how they implemented ECM, but not really surprised, it's PGI after all.

I don't know why they didn't put more thought and creativity into it (or anything else). ECM would have been really cool as a more proactive system that you can specifically target enemy Mechs with, not some auto-bubble of super immunity only countered by other auto-bubbles of super immunity. That's just.. bah, boring, bland, shallow...

as much as he's king troll of late he's also spot on.

[Deadoon]

I say nerf both, no nerf, ignore.
Why?
Nerf both: ssrm are not overpowered by themselves, but compared to srm they are, srm need their semi-homing capacity( bettwe with arti of course), or straight fire with a semi homing beni caused by artemis. Lrm are far more powerful than they should be. But by merely gining them 240 ammo or so and going back down to 1 damage per they go back to a fire support level rather than annihilation barrage.

so nerf lrm, keep ssrm the same, buff srm to make them actually normal rather than a rocket powered shotgun.
No nerf to the ecm, but rather a buff to the bap or a change in mechanics of the lock on system as a whole, aka a stealth nerf. The device itself would have no change, but by making los lock ons unblockable and adding nlos locks that it blocks instead, you stealth nerf it. Or you could add those benis to the bap system making it a very viable but still no cambat bonus item. Also they shouldn't make ecm block lockons if they properly fix the missiles( not nerf, fix) and the benifit of streaks is that they are unaffected by ecm, by blocking them you actually are removing one of their key benifits.

Your premise, no.

[Kaziganthi]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Imagine ECM is not in the game, and you load in on caustic valley, at the factory spawn. Guess where you are headed? E5/D4. Hold on the edge of the Calderra behind cover (so they can't LRM you) and camp until the other team gets bored of camping and rushes out and dies, or your team (assuming pugs) get bored and rushes out and dies. At this point people on the team that rushed out and tried to have fun start saying "stupid noob team".

This is not tactical, this is repeatable and almost scientific. That is what EVERY game of Caustic valley was. Oh wait, you're right, I forgot some other strategies... Like the 3-line rush :-/

LRMs are completely OP, they need their damage brought WAY down otherwise all they encourage is boating and camping, neither of which is good for the game. LRMs are why most maps only had one strategy "camp this spot that LRMs can't hit", why some spawns were considered "better" than other spawns, and why no one besides missile users got to have any fun.

So they are OP because the otherside gets bored and rushes over the hill. You can say that for every part of every map.

Thats what scouts are for. So many times I've seen scouts sneak into the rear area to light up mechs doing that exact same tactic, and you know what. That tactic of waiting has failed more than you know because the people standing there got complacent and didnt look around for the spotters (yes more than 1).

Now with ECM, mechs don't have to sneak, they can just run on in, straight to base and start capping. Whats tactical about that.

As to camping one spot...NO!!! The LRM boaters camped in those spots because it provide maximum coverage of the forward area as well as your rear area for those sneaky mechs that got into the rear. Thats being tactical. You don't want your long range coverage to be to far forward from your base to provide coverage, and to far in the rear that they cannot provode support to your troops moving forward.

More than 1 game has been lost through base capping because all thats left is slow mechs (Atlas and Cats) due to being to far from enemy base to cap and to far from home base to stop capping.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 15 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Marj]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Last but not least, I think we all want this game to succeed so try and take a step back and see this game from the perspective of all 16 players in a game; LOWS stop looking like such a good system... Anyone who hasn't had the chance to pilot a 3L please do so 2xMPL+Tag/3ML + 2xSRM2 + XL295 + ECM + DHS + Endo, FF if you want to max armor but you can strip the arms and legs a tiny bit if you want to save money. I think anyone who runs that build will stop thinking that streaks are balanced if they have a single shred of objective reasoning in them.

Instead of 'streaks are OP' how about 'direct fire weapons are underpowered because they don't hit'? STREAKS ARE FINE. Or are you suggesting soloing an atlas in a 3L is balanced?

[80Bit]

The tier chart of mechs is stupid and should stop being posted.

[iller]

I have a question:

If ECM basically pollutes the air with signal scrambling to disrupt computer guided lock-on.... then how does it NOT just instantly turn STREAKs into Dumbfire SRMs? ...I mean that does not make logical sense nomatter who's shooting them. IOW: If you're running ECM, why doesn't it just cancel out the guidance of every Streak you fire?

Edited by iller, 15 December 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Deadoon]

iller, on 15 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I have a question:

If ECM basically pollutes the air with signal scrambling to disrupt computer guided lock-on.... then how does it NOT just instantly turn STREAKs into Dumbfire SRMs? ...I mean that does not make logical sense nomatter who's shooting them. IOW: If you're running ECM, why doesn't it just cancel out the guidance of every Streak you fire?

They are supposed to turn into dumbfires, but the thing is pgi never implemented that, nor did they remember that the guardian system doesn't even jam streak missiles.

[Kaziganthi]

Deadoon, on 15 December 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

They are supposed to turn into dumbfires, but the thing is pgi never implemented that, nor did they remember that the guardian system doesn't even jam streak missiles.

Or did they...remember they stated that "ECM will be a game changer" espcially after one of the Dev's had his head handed to him in under 30 seconds by a streakcat.

[Chrithu]

Kaziganthi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Or did they...remember they stated that "ECM will be a game changer" espcially after one of the Dev's had his head handed to him in under 30 seconds by a streakcat.

It's just that the ECM did change nearly nothing about the whole Streak deal. Or did it make stuff worse?

3 COM 2D rushing through your group focusing their 9 SSRM2's at a single target.

Raven 3L providing ECM cover or ECM counter for an A1 with 6 SSRM 2's also both focusing their total of 8 SSRM 2 at a single target.

Yeah right. We're all just telling ******** and Streaks are fine and ECM doesn't make them even worse. I am just imagining those situations happening every 3rd game at least.

[shabowie]

Kaziganthi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Or did they...remember they stated that &quot;ECM will be a game changer&quot; espcially after one of the Dev's had his head handed to him in under 30 seconds by a streakcat.

Well can one of them kindly join an 8 man and get destroyed by a flock of ravens or D DCs with streaks?

Game is kinda broke and think they oughta know

Edited by shabowie, 15 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Obeast]

Kaziganthi, on 15 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Or did they...remember they stated that "ECM will be a game changer" espcially after one of the Dev's had his head handed to him in under 30 seconds by a streakcat.

Its must've been some Dev on Dev combat then cause here is a shot of Kyle Hayden running his Streak Cat....

[Kaziganthi]

Jason Parker, on 15 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

It's just that the ECM did change nearly nothing about the whole Streak deal. Or did it make stuff worse?

3 COM 2D rushing through your group focusing their 9 SSRM2's at a single target.

Raven 3L providing ECM cover or ECM counter for an A1 with 6 SSRM 2's also both focusing their total of 8 SSRM 2 at a single target.

Yeah right. We're all just telling ******** and Streaks are fine and ECM doesn't make them even worse. I am just imagining those situations happening every 3rd game at least.

What it did was mean just about every ecm carrying mech now, carries streaks. You also see streakcats workign in tandem with an ecm mech. What it did do, is lock down one of the best ways of getting rid of streakcats is from ranged with LRM's

edit : and my post you replied to was a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 15 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[C0unt]

SSRM too easy, it don't even need proper HUD to play.

[mekabuser]

only nerf ssrm.
no need to nerf ecm, just make tag and bap real counters.
yes, your premise is sound.
the hate your getting is from all the people who love lows.

I understand lows spam for a variety of tech reasons, ping etc. but imo its mostly troll lol lows.

[Codejack]

Well, the poll clearly shows most people want ECM nerfed and missiles left alone, and even of the people who want missiles nerfed, only half want LRMs nerfed.

This suggests to me that these people either won't or can't figure out how to play the game. Or read any of the dozens of posts on how to counter missiles. Or build their own missile-boats so they can get killed to they can see how it's done.

As for streaks, they are only good for killing lights. Unfortunately, they are the ones we need help killing! Otherwise, everyone would run SRM6s for 3 times the damage, no delay waiting for lock on, etc.