231 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

mekabuser, on 30 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

only nerf ssrm.
no need to nerf ecm, just make tag and bap real counters.
yes, your premise is sound.
the hate your getting is from all the people who love lows.

I understand lows spam for a variety of tech reasons, ping etc. but imo its mostly troll lol lows.

No need to Nerf SSRMs. Reduce the number of "extra" Missile hard points. SSRMs no longer a boating option in MOST cases.

Guardian ECM does not block STREAKS. Never has.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Is it truly fair to nerf SSRM boat only to allow a 6 PPC boat to roam free? Create a module that helps defend against SSRM's, leave the mechs alone.

[Carnivoris]

Look, people, MWO is based on the TT numbers, lore, and rules. ECM in TT doesn't prevent weapon locks for anything. It only negates NARC and Artemis. THAT is what ECM should do and that's ALL it should do!

[Barghest Whelp]

Well, even after ECM was introduced I'm still seeing a truck load of LRM spam, and I feel it's a bit too hard to get in cover. It's like you need to be inside a tunnel before the cover counts as good enough to hide. I also feel that moving at faster speeds should negate some of the damage. Maybe reduce the turn rate of the missiles somewhat.

In regards to SSRMs, I think the best way forward is to follow the TT rules. They don't track in the TT, and hence they should not track in MWO either. The only way to make them "not fire" unless sure to hit would be to refund the ammo if/when they miss, and reset the cooldown. I know it sounds silly, but I can't think of another way to balance them. A short range, always hits weapon is OP no matter how you spin it.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Being that SSRM's are retaining their "likely" hit percentage but spreading damage out "officially" to arms and legs depending on the orientation of mech to mech. SSRM's are here to stay guys, learn to deal with them

[Thorqemada]

Any Weapons that can be manualy aimed at specific Mechparts without needing a lock are OP compared to lock on weapons that have a truckload of counters and a random damagespread.
The damagereadout of games gives proof to that as direct fire weapons need 1/3 or even only 1/4 of the damage of lock on weapons to kill a Mech.
ECM has made direct fire weapons aka DIREs even more OP and this needs an urgent adressing in the next round of game balancing.

[SpiralRazor]

Lets see...


No

Yes

and no


Who feels salty now? Derp, Derp!

Suck it ECM fans, suck it.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 30 December 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Being that SSRM's are retaining their "likely" hit percentage but spreading damage out "officially" to arms and legs depending on the orientation of mech to mech. SSRM's are here to stay guys, learn to deal with them

This is all they need to do to be fixed. Streaks by themselves, even boated in huge numbers are still at max only 12 missiles on an A1 that can boat the most of them. 12 missiles spread all over a target instead of straight into the torso is a very weak barrage.

[Krondor]

People think Streaks are that good?

I must have missed something.. I've completely removed them from nearly all of my builds. The only reason I used them was because of the s-itty netcode against lights. Now that the light of choice is an ECM'd Raven 3L, there just isn't any point.

I've found SRMs vastly more useful for the tonnage on my Dragons anyway (and the 1N the most useless Dragon? Seriously? Ever piloted a 5N in combat against players who can actually aim?), since I don't have to keep the CT facing the enemy while I wait for a lock. Since ECM I've actually taken out more lights with SRMs than with SSRMs (that poor Jenner....)

Pulse Lasers are about the only other thing useful against light mechs right now, but that's a problem with the netcode moreso than any weapon balancing.

LRMs are fine, and have been fine for a very long time. Even before ECM LRMs were fairly easy to counter, now with ECM it makes boating them a gamble as to whether or not it will be a waist of tonnage. You almost never see LRM boats in 8-man drops right now for that very reason, and I rarely see more than one or two in PUG games. Using LRMs effectively now requires -GASP!- teamwork.

Streakboats aren't even as big of a problem anymore. Stay away from them. Notice how almost all SRMkitty builds now mix SSRMs with SRMs as well as secondary weapons? They got tired of being countered. Streakboats are powerful but only in specific instances, like almost every other boat build.

No, the biggest problem with MWO right now is the horrible netcode + ECM making certain light mechs almost invincible. That has forced a complete shift in gameplay mechanics, and ECM has made the only two remaining counters to lights nearly void. Once the netcode is fixed lights are going to become much more vulnerable.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[Zypher]

I hate to invalidate this thread but people need to understand the topic is pointless. As of now yes, ECM and streaks are a headache, but why would the devs waste time focusing on this issue when the new netcode and collisions are going to change the dynamics of these systems, actually if not the entire game.

Yes, it's going to suck, because we are going to have to endure the light ECM streak combos until they fix more pressing issues of gameplay which could still be weeks or months down the road. I absolutely cannot stand lights that hide in the netcode lag myself and then potentially exploit things further with ECM and streaks, but your only options that seem to make sense are play or quit until the real BIG issues are resolved.

[Krondor]

Barghest Whelp, on 30 December 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Well, even after ECM was introduced I'm still seeing a truck load of LRM spam, and I feel it's a bit too hard to get in cover

This isn't meant as a snarky comment -I'm absolutely serious.

Don't leave cover if you're in a slow mech (<60 Kph).

These maps have TONs of cover available, and I haven't seen a game where a team has enough LRMs to cover every approach in a very long time.

As has been said a couple of times in this thread, anyone having trouble with LRMs should play an LRM-heavy mech for a while. It will honestly teach you how to counter them very well.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Is it truly fair to nerf SSRM boat only to allow a 6 PPC boat to roam free? Create a module that helps defend against SSRM's, leave the mechs alone.

Were we talking about PPCs in this thread? I thought we were discussing SSRMs?

[Krondor]

"Boats" aren't the problem, and generally never were. All of them have tactical counters. SSRM boats? Can't engage outside 270m. LRM boats? Highly susceptible to cover and can't engage inside of 180 metres (and by the amount of LRMs I see fired at point blank in pug games, I think a lot of people don't realize that...). PPC boats? Become very ineffective inside 90 metres. They're also assault mechs which means they're slow as heck. Put a TAG mech behind them and LRM rain them to death (there's that dirty "teamwork" again).

MWO is not a solo lonewolf game, no matter how many people want it to be. If people are going to insist on playing it light that then they're going to have to accept the limitations therein.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[SkyCake]

Marj, on 15 December 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

Streaks are fine as is. The problem isn't streaks being too good, it's that direct fire weapons aren't good enough due to poor netcode. Fix the netcode and direct fire weapons will be just as good as streaks.

this guy gets it... unfortunately netcode is three or four months away... and streaks could probably use a nerf anyway... they should not get to always hit and do the same damage as srm's... take damage down to 1.8/missile down from 2.5... say because of added guidance electronics, the warhead had to be sized down... that way their is a choice to be made for ecm mechs, and those who can't use them are at least doing more damage... I mean, when streak 4 and 6 come out, what is going to stop people from taking streak over regular

Edited by SkyCake, 30 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Krondor]

SkyCake, on 30 December 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

this guy gets it... unfortunately netcode is three or four months away... and streaks could probably use a nerf anyway... they should not get to always hit and do the same damage as srm's... take damage down to 1.8... say because of added guidance electronics, the warhead had to be sized down...

Exactly. The crappy netcode has had the unfortunate effect of making light mechs much more powerful than they should be anyways. Add ECM on top of that....

[Kousagi]

I would have to agree with the OP that both SSRM's and LRM's in their current form are very OP. With SSRM's theres no need to think about aiming, as right now SSRM's only target the 3 torso sections. Though yes, if you fire from the side they will hit the arm, but does not mean their target is the arm itself. 100% hit rate for no need to aim, all for a stupidly low weight, heat, and crit slots.

LRM's, yes they may be harder to use in a battle with ECM, but without ECM, they are god like. They hit far harder then any other weapon in the game, shoot farther for max damage, and can track a target over some terrain. Sure they spread the damage out, but with one 20 launcher doing 36 damage for 6 heat, thats not much of a concern. To even match the range of LRM's for a fraction of the damage other weapons pay dearly in weight or heat. So yes, that 6 ppc build might do 60 damage alpha, but you get 54 heat for it, which should put you near shut down. Where as a LRM 20 boat, for the same amount of heat does 324 damage.

And before you say cover is the counter to LRM's... Cover is the counter to everything. They can't shoot you, if they can't see ya. If they nerf SSRM's and LRM's then sure, Make ECM not effect them weapon types. Though, once the netcode is fixed where we can hit light mechs, They WILL need the current form of ECM to even survive. As they will get wreaked very easy once everything that hits them really does do damage. Plus all the current light mech pilots are learning very very very bad tactics cause they depend on the lag shield to do anything.

[Ryebear]

Look the problem *IS* LOWS and ECM is an abortive fix.

Because LRMs do far more damage than originally intended, you cant simply stock up on the equivalent tonnage of Gauss Rifles, ER Large Lasers or PPCs and simply be a better shot than LRM users because you will get out damaged and die. LRMs have effectively killed long range combat, not because the maps are too small, but because LRMs are too powerful. Id suggest a fix of doubling LRM speed (and possibly tweak the guidance so they are still dodgeable if going at a high enough speed with a specific enough angle of movement) and increasing lock-on time slightly, lower damage to regular values and implement big penalties for indirect fire unless supported by NARC but not TAG.

In new maps, lower the amount of cover to limit the ability to sneak up to medium range engagement length to counter the Brawl Warrior Online or whatever you guys call it.

SSRMs should not be lock-on at all, they should only fire if they will hit. If you try to shoot SSRMs when no missiles will it and it will give you the "cant shoot buzzer" like when you try to shoot them without lock-on. Since hits are server authoritative they can determine whether at least one missile will hit, if that is the case, allow them to fire. This will prevent being able to fire backwards at the most extreme arm movement range from torso mounted tubes and still hit.

ECM is just, wow, while I can handle it fairly well in small doses, I've yet to be involved in a game where a team who is outnumbered by ECMs by 2 (0vs2 or 1vs3 etc) or greater has ever been close to winning. ECM should hide detailed information (huge impact) for enemies in the bubble, possibly block NARC from broadcasting but have no effect on TAG (TAG is viable in ECM, NARC allows indirect fire, see what I did there). In the bubble it should allow identification of friendly or enemy mechs, TAG should allow LRM lockon as long as there is line of site from the tagged mech and the LRM boat regardless of being inside or outside of the bubble for the Tagger or the LRMs. Im sure there are some other obvious things, really I just think ECM is having a big impact on the game and should be toned down a bit, but making changes to the missiles might be enough in their own rights.

Edited by Ryebear, 30 December 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Krondor]

Kousagi, on 30 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

I would have to agree with the OP that both SSRM's and LRM's in their current form are very OP. With SSRM's theres no need to think about aiming, as right now SSRM's only target the 3 torso sections. Though yes, if you fire from the side they will hit the arm, but does not mean their target is the arm itself. 100% hit rate for no need to aim, all for a stupidly low weight, heat, and crit slots.

LRM's, yes they may be harder to use in a battle with ECM, but without ECM, they are god like. They hit far harder then any other weapon in the game, shoot farther for max damage, and can track a target over some terrain. Sure they spread the damage out, but with one 20 launcher doing 36 damage for 6 heat, thats not much of a concern. To even match the range of LRM's for a fraction of the damage other weapons pay dearly in weight or heat. So yes, that 6 ppc build might do 60 damage alpha, but you get 54 heat for it, which should put you near shut down. Where as a LRM 20 boat, for the same amount of heat does 324 damage.

And before you say cover is the counter to LRM's... Cover is the counter to everything. They can't shoot you, if they can't see ya. If they nerf SSRM's and LRM's then sure, Make ECM not effect them weapon types. Though, once the netcode is fixed where we can hit light mechs, They WILL need the current form of ECM to even survive. As they will get wreaked very easy once everything that hits them really does do damage. Plus all the current light mech pilots are learning very very very bad tactics cause they depend on the lag shield to do anything.

I love how you glossed over the disadvantages to LRMs.

-You need a lock for them to be effective.
-While they have a high damage potential, they rarely ever all hit.
-Their damage is spread.That 60 Alpha from a PPC boat will destroy (or strip all the armour) almost any CT it hits. A 60 alpha from an LRM will cause what? 10-15 damage to any single section? Assuming all of the LRMs hit.
-LRMs require teamwork to be used to their full advantage.
-ECM completely voids LRMs. It doesn't reduce their effectiveness. It makes them useless, mitigated if there is the presence of another piece of equipment that is LOS only and has to keep a constant contact with the target.
-You get a nice big warning and a good deal of time to move into cover if an LRM storm is incoming to you. The first warning you get from twin Gauss rounds is shake and your armour getting blown off from a single section (<-not a complaint against gauss).

Ask any LRM boater.. they'll tell you that on average 1/3 to 2/3 of their rounds bounce ground, debris, mountains, or are waisted because they lose lock in flight.

LRMs are fine they way they are.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Codejack]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Exactly. The crappy netcode has had the unfortunate effect of making light mechs much more powerful than they should be anyways. Add ECM on top of that....

Don't forget the double armor, and the screwy heat mechanic that's bent way in their favor, and the mysterious way that they have the same number of critical slots as assault mech... what are we piloting, here, the Tardis?

[SpiralRazor]

Zypher, on 30 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I hate to invalidate this thread but people need to understand the topic is pointless. As of now yes, ECM and streaks are a headache, but why would the devs waste time focusing on this issue when the new netcode and collisions are going to change the dynamics of these systems, actually if not the entire game.

Yes, it's going to suck, because we are going to have to endure the light ECM streak combos until they fix more pressing issues of gameplay which could still be weeks or months down the road. I absolutely cannot stand lights that hide in the netcode lag myself and then potentially exploit things further with ECM and streaks, but your only options that seem to make sense are play or quit until the real BIG issues are resolved.

If those issues take MONTHS to fix because PGI cant find any engineers who want to work for them, dont you think the best thing to do would be to change some database values on the ECM itself???

SkyCake, on 30 December 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

this guy gets it... unfortunately netcode is three or four months away... and streaks could probably use a nerf anyway... they should not get to always hit and do the same damage as srm's... take damage down to 1.8/missile down from 2.5... say because of added guidance electronics, the warhead had to be sized down... that way their is a choice to be made for ecm mechs, and those who can't use them are at least doing more damage... I mean, when streak 4 and 6 come out, what is going to stop people from taking streak over regular

There is no reason to take SRM 6 over Streak 6 if its availible, other then cost..

its a DIRECT upgrade to old outdated technology. Real choices dont become available until the Jihad era.