231 replies to this topic

[Krondor]

<deleted>

Apparently I can't delete my own post in this thread...

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Kousagi....the trolling skill is strong with this one:)>


Let me ask you a question bro...what mechwarrior title have you played where streaks and LRMS didnt lock on? Even SRMS had limited guidance under artemis FCS.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 30 December 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

This isn't meant as a snarky comment -I'm absolutely serious.

Don't leave cover if you're in a slow mech (<60 Kph).

These maps have TONs of cover available, and I haven't seen a game where a team has enough LRMs to cover every approach in a very long time.

As has been said a couple of times in this thread, anyone having trouble with LRMs should play an LRM-heavy mech for a while. It will honestly teach you how to counter them very well.

Yes, staying in cover is easy. But once they've been fired and you hear that "incoming missile" sound it's a bit hard to get in to cover. And if you're ECM jammed it makes it even worse, because you can't see where the missiles are coming from. And even if I manage to get out of sight from the LRM mech, the missiles still manage to find that one tiny little opening and slip through.

My point being that their tracking is a bit overkill. That, and the fact that fast manouvers should have an effect on LRMs.

Edit: I forgot to mention that most of my mechs go 70+ kph. And that's largely due to LRMs. I tend to die horribly to LRMs in anything slower than 70 kph.

Edited by Barghest Whelp, 30 December 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Gaeb]

ECM isn't the problem, lights are.

[Kousagi]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I love how you glossed over the disadvantages to LRMs.

-You need a lock for them to be effective.
-While they have a high damage potential, they rarely ever all hit.
-Their damage is spread.That 60 Alpha from a PPC boat will destroy (or strip all the armour) almost any CT it hits. A 60 alpha from an LRM will cause what? 10-15 damage to any single section? Assuming all of the LRMs hit.
-LRMs require teamwork to be used to their full advantage.
-ECM completely voids LRMs. It doesn't reduce their effectiveness. It makes them useless, mitigated if there is the presence of another piece of equipment that is LOS only and has to keep a constant contact with the target.
-You get a nice big warning and a good deal of time to move into cover if an LRM storm is incoming to you. The first warning you get from twin Gauss rounds is shake and your armour getting blown off from a single section (<-not a complaint against gauss).

Ask any LRM boater.. they'll tell you that on average 1/3 to 2/3 of their rounds bounce ground, debris, mountains, or are waisted because they lose lock in flight.

LRMs are fine they way they are.

Gloss over? lol?

A lock is not a disadvantage, You don't need to aim well at all to get a lock. A monkey could get a lock.... Rarly ever hit? lol? stop shooting at stuff thats going to get away from ya super easy... Ya don't have to stay at 1000m to fire them ya know. Ya, the PPC's will hit one spot, but they don't get to fire much. Their down time due to heat is huge.... LRM's have time to do a whole lot more damage. LRM's also don't need teamwork to be fired... LOS, its a beautiful thing... Yes, to fire indirectly ya need a spotter. The whole warning thing, again, don't shoot at people 1000m away, or fire at people that can't take cover due to being already engaged.

Already said ECM kills LRM's, unless ya tag them.. so its kinda redundant for you to state that it does...

Edited by Kousagi, 30 December 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Krondor]

Barghest Whelp, on 30 December 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Yes, staying in cover is easy. But once they've been fired and you hear that "incoming missile" sound it's a bit hard to get in to cover. And if you're ECM jammed it makes it even worse, because you can't see where the missiles are coming from. And even if I manage to get out of sight from the LRM mech, the missiles still manage to find that one tiny little opening and slip through.

My point being that their tracking is a bit overkill. That, and the fact that fast manouvers should have an effect on LRMs.

Situational awareness

At every time, know your route to cover. At every time, know where the enemy LRM boats are. Watch the battle around you and you can spot their rain.

Is it easy? No, especially not for a new player. And there will be times that despite your best efforts you still get hosed by LRM fire. But with practice that will become the uncommon exception rather than the rule.

Feel free to hit me up via PM if you want to discuss it some more.

[Codejack]

Gaeb, on 30 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

ECM isn't the problem, lights are.

.

[Krondor]

Kousagi, on 30 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Gloss over? lol?

A lock is not a disadvantage, You don't need to aim well at all to get a lock. A money could get a lock.... Rarly ever hit? lol? stop shooting at stuff thats going to get away from ya super easy... Ya don't have to stay at 1000m to fire them ya know. Ya, the PPC's will hit one spot, but they don't get to fire much. Their down time due to heat is huge.... LRM's have time to do a whole lot more damage. LRM's also don't need teamwork to be fired... LOS, its a beautiful thing... Yes, to fire indirectly ya need a spotter. The whole warning thing, again, don't shoot at people 1000m away, or fire at people that can't take cover due to being already engaged.

Already said ECM kills LRM's, unless ya tag them.. so its kinda redundant for you to state that it does...

So this must be why 8v8 is filled with LRM boats.

Oh wait...

Same reason PUG games must be filled with LRM boats.

Oh wait...

I don't consider anything I listed a "disadvantage" per se, more of a balancing thing. But LRMs are seriously one of the easiest weapons in the game to counter without ECM. AMS alone seriously improves your odds. Of course, not if you're advancing out in the open in a Fatlas or other seriously slow mech... but at that point you'll get pinged from long range with ACs, PPCs, LRMs, and just about everything else.

Staying in cover and moving so LRMs aren't a threat will seriously hamper your tactical movement... as it should. But to pretend their some magic "i win" button is just ridiculous.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

ssrm 2's do too much damage. assuming we will eventually get ssrm 6's, 2's are already massively OP. the other theory is that we never see ssrm 6's, instead 2's in pairs of 3 become a 6, thus utilizing hardpoints rather than new weapon systems.

LRMS also do too much damage & track much too well. Just because you can get a lock does not mean you are gaurenteed a hit. LRM damage at 1.5 would be plenty if we had lockon again as pre-ecm was.

imho game balance is completely out of whack exactly because PGI continues to stray from TT in negative directions. ECM does far too many things far too well for such a cheap piece of gear, and is completely off what it should do in TT.

the high heatscale allowing for multiple massive alpha strikes is also a problem.

As is the inability to obtain locks or have a useable radar system since ECM was introduced.

Mechwarrior has always been about radar, and instead we are seeing an odd what feels like semi/no radar game develop. This to me is completely out of whack from what mechwarrior & btech is about.

my biggest issue now is that in general fights are devolving into counter-strike type gameplay, stick head over ridge, snipe, go back down. 90% of pilots use direct fire weapons now, and though we see LRM's and they are brutal when they hit, the general day to day combat in the game is much much worse since ECM was introduced.

[C0unt]

Force reset lock after SSRM fire. Problem solved.

[Orzorn]

C0unt, on 30 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Force reset lock after SSRM fire. Problem solved.

I think that, combined with SSRMs targetting arms and legs, would be a good solution.

Of course, if we got that, ECM really has to stop affecting at the very least SSRMs. Some people support it because of the idea that SSRMs deserve a counter for their power, but if they were more balanced, it wouldn't "need" (it shouldn't have existed in the first place) such a powerful counter.

[Kousagi]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

So this must be why 8v8 is filled with LRM boats.

Oh wait...

Same reason PUG games must be filled with LRM boats.

Oh wait...

I don't consider anything I listed a "disadvantage" per se, more of a balancing thing. But LRMs are seriously one of the easiest weapons in the game to counter without ECM. AMS alone seriously improves your odds. Of course, not if you're advancing out in the open in a Fatlas or other seriously slow mech... but at that point you'll get pinged from long range with ACs, PPCs, LRMs, and just about everything else.

Staying in cover and moving so LRMs aren't a threat will seriously hamper your tactical movement... as it should. But to pretend their some magic "i win" button is just ridiculous.

Never said they were a Iwin button. They are still stupidly powerful though. I bet if ya removed ECM right now it would turn back in to LRM warrior online, just like after the Artemis patch. As ECM is the Only thing keeping them in check.

[DocBach]

Would have loved to see PGI just fix the issues with the individual weapon systems instead of stopping them by adding another piece of equipment that is OP in its own right and doesn't fix the game unless everyone takes it. They had LRMs almost perfect except for firing angle, all they had to do was fix that and it'd be fine - so they made crazy changes to the firing angle and the damage. There's like, no middle ground with these guys, their scales balance either way too far towards ineffective or way too far overpowered.

[Krondor]

Orzorn, on 30 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think that, combined with SSRMs targetting arms and legs, would be a good solution.

Of course, if we got that, ECM really has to stop affecting at the very least SSRMs. Some people support it because of the idea that SSRMs deserve a counter for their power, but if they were more balanced, it wouldn't "need" (it shouldn't have existed in the first place) such a powerful counter.

IMO the biggest issue with SSRMs right now is the netcode lagshield. Many people ran SSRMs because they were the only thing that could effectively counter lights. Now with ECM even that has been removed.. so we have near invincible light mechs loaded up with SSRMs.. SSRMs work for them because they can hang around other mechs with little fear of reprisal.

I ran a streakkitty for a while just for lolz but ditched it because it was such a crap build.. not optimized for squat and easy to counter. This was before ECM. I imagine I'm a bit of a crap Kitty pilot.. but I was less effective with a boater than a more versatile build.

The current netcode issues (and AC convergence issues) has made certain weapons -SSRMs chief among them- disproportionately powerful. The problem isn't necessarily that they're OP... there just aren't any effective alternatives.

[River Walker]

My Beef has been the SSRM 2 Not because it can be boated or the dameg it dos.

My beef with it is it blinds the guy that's getting hammer by them and when you have 2 or more SSRM boater on your A$$, you Kiss it good by because you cant shoot back because you cant see and you are rocking to much to even hit them.
ECM is not the prob,SSRM and their boater are.

[Krondor]

Here's the thing.. if they nerf SSRMs, it will change..... nothing.

If they nerf LRMs it will change.... nothing.

8v8 matches are already Atlas/Raven brawlfests and nearly nothing else (because of ECM more than anything).

PUG matches are actually dynamic enough that you can use different builds and actually play with some different tactics to win. Enemy team is LRM heavy? How about you counter with tactics (and there ARE tactical counters to LRMs) instead of whining "nerf" or ECM? Enemy team SSRM heavy? If only we had some long range weapons and tactics available to us.... hmm... there was something that could shoot a long way that would make sure SRM boats didn't cross in the open to kill us... what was it....

This is a thinking mans game. Or at least it was until the "NERF ALL THE THINGS!" crowed got to it and are slowly turning into CODwarrior Online.

ECM was introduced because so many people were b*tching about SSRMs. All ECM has done was made it so only light mechs can use SSRMs effectively.

Again, we come back to the netcode making it so there's a lack of viable alternatives. With the netcode fixed you'll see a greater diversity in weapons.

River Walker, on 30 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

My Beef has been the SSRM 2 Not because it can be boated or the dameg it dos.

My beef with it is it blinds the guy that's getting hammer by them and when you have 2 or more SSRM boater on your A$$, you Kiss it good by because you cant shoot back because you cant see and you are rocking to much to even hit them.
ECM is not the prob,SSRM and their boater are.

Weapon knock has been an issue for a while with SRMs as well as ACs. I agree.. I think it's a little nuts right now.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Here's the thing.. if they nerf SSRMs, it will change..... nothing.

If they nerf LRMs it will change.... nothing.

8v8 matches are already Atlas/Raven brawlfests and nearly nothing else (because of ECM more than anything).

PUG matches are actually dynamic enough that you can use different builds and actually play with some different tactics to win. Enemy team is LRM heavy? How about you counter with tactics (and there ARE tactical counters to LRMs) instead of whining "nerf" or ECM? Enemy team SSRM heavy? If only we had some long range weapons and tactics available to us.... hmm... there was something that could shoot a long way that would make sure SRM boats didn't cross in the open to kill us... what was it....

This is a thinking mans game. Or at least it was until the "NERF ALL THE THINGS!" crowed got to it and are slowly turning into CODwarrior Online.


Weapon knock has been an issue for a while with SRMs as well as ACs.

Maybe the Phase 3 ELO system could be effected my multiple ECM's somehow. That way (however it's done) the ECM only mechs continually get lumped together. Eventually it will get boring for them.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 December 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Krondor]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Maybe the Phase 3 ELO system could be effected my multiple ECM's somehow. That way (however it's done) the ECM only mechs continually get lumped together. Eventually it will get boring for them.

ECM, in its current implementation, is broken. It offers so many advantages with practically no disadvantages that there is zero reason to not run an ECM'd mech.

You can't say the same about SSRM or LRM boats. LRM boats are horridly vulnerable to anything ECM'd or inside 180 meters. SSRM boats are horridly vulnerable to anything outside 270 meters. ECM light mechs are horridly vulnerable to... nothing. Actually, they're not really vulnerable to anything at all.. except more ECM.. when they can become vulnerable to the SSRMs and LRMs people want nerfed.

It's a stupid rock-paper-scissors game.

Fix the netcode (so lasers become useful against lights). Fix AC convergence problems (so ACs become useful against lights), then if SSRMs are still problem, look at balancing.

Like I said.. it's not that SSRMs are so powerful.. there's just a lack of useful alternatives against light mechs, making them seem disproportionately powerful.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Krondor, on 30 December 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

ECM, in its current implementation, is broken. It offers so many advantages with practically no disadvantages that there is zero reason to not run an ECM'd mech.

You can't say the same about SSRM or LRM boats.

Running ECM mechs allows you to boat SSRM's with no drawbacks. But that's not my point, if you lump all of the asshat teams that run 8 ECM mechs to do nothing but fight one another then you eventually bore them to the point of either changing their tactics or leaving to find another game.

And I agree with you on fixing the netcode so that there are other ways to kill lights than SSRM's

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 December 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[Kreisel]

ECM absolutely DOES have an effect and Role even without hampering missile fire. Visual ease of picking out targets at long range, Communication, identification of mechs, weapons systems, damaged locations, transmitting a foes location on the minimap, location of allies and knowing if they are in trouble are not. You get all that for 1.5 Tons. That's a major benefit for only an investment of 1.5 tons. I was excited about and looking forward to using ECM back before I knew everything it does now. Even if it was limited to what it did in TT I would take it and it would be worth it. What we have now goes beyond information warfare into over powered, and as someone who already piloted Ravens and was looking forward to a dynamic information warfare role... it's just too much.

SRM6 A1 Catapults were scary powerful before Streakcats got put in, and they still do massive amounts of damage. My Max armor Raven has had it's side torso blown entirely off by one with single volley. It was the shaking that made Streakcats overpowered, once that got balanced out they fell more in line with what they should be, Hunters of lights and fast movers. But if you want to be a threat to something with lots of armor, SRM6 especially with Artemis are the way to go. My L3 Raven actually Packs 2 SRM6+Artemis and does a tremendous amount of damage to higher tonnage mechs, I hunt and get most my kills on heavies and assaults with it, though other light mechs give me a problem. That's balanced, I built myself to be a big danger to one class of mechs and it creates a weakness against another. It creates a nitch for each kind of weapon.

You know what the counter is to SSRM2: AMS!!!! if you keep enough distance (~200) it will shoot down an entire SSRM2 shot before it reaches you, every time. I've had Streakcats accuse my lights of hacking because I had AMS. Also AMS DOES help a lot vs LRM, sure it doesn't nullify an LRM 20, but it shouldn't, it's only 1.5 tons with ammo and stacking them does make it more effective. Pre-ECM teams used to stack together for AMS overlap. There are Mechs variants which 'big thing' is having 2 AMS slots and ECM Variants currently outclasses them in how good it is reducing the threat of missiles in addition to all their other advantages.

Yes, lock on weapons are powerful, and 1 team being able to rain support fire on the other without fear of reprisal is unfair. But what that really means is the other team lacks the ability to perform one of battlefield roles and likely atleast 1 mech is being locked out of affectingly fighting back, this doesn't make LRM overpowered... it makes the players who took them on the other team have wasted tonnage, possibly it makes some mechs on the other team completely unable to attack, and I think everyone knows, if 1 team has more mechs actually effectively fighting in the match, that team almost always wins.

And even without ECM there were counters to LRM, scout harassment, getting up close and personal under 180, sticking to cover, AMS, forcing them to fall back and abandon locks by hitting them with direct fire/snipers.