81 replies to this topic

[zverofaust]

Unstruck Fury, on 16 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

I have never had a problem with Ravens or Jenners. Sure they are fast and the lagshield makes them a little bit of a ***** but ECM added to them does nothing to me. At all. "Oh no I cant see them on the map anymore" well **** its not like I have eyes or a brain to figure they probably are behind me trying to tear at my rear armor.

no, ECM on lights is a very minimal hindrance. Learn to use situational awareness and not rely on a map.

ECM does not make lights overpowered, the bugs with lights do however.

It isn't about them being invisible on the map, but that ECM makes their only consistent and reliable counter -- SSRMs -- absolutely useless. But I guess you're right. If netcode and hit detection actually worked they'd be a lot easier to counter and that whole "spin circles around entire enemy team and barely get hit with 6 of them shooting at me" thing wouldn't work.

Unfortunately hit detection doesn't work.

[Pancakeman]

I love my ECM raven. Consistently hitting 600+ damages. Razors comment about playing in pugs vs playing 8 mans is correct. It's a whole different animal.

[zverofaust]

Sevaradan, on 16 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I do, and run a mixed lance with only 4 ecm usually and do well.

Guys guys we're obviously dealing with a l33t pr0 gamer here who never has any problem ever hitting a light in fact I saw him in a game once and he killed 3 Ravens with 1 shot of his AC/20 thats how good he is you're not even on his level so don't even try

[Darzok]

I am 100% fine with how ECM is working problem is the lazy part of the player base is not willing to change with the game so they whine like mad on the forums and that is why you see so many Nerf posts.

[Sevaradan]

zverofaust, on 16 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Guys guys we're obviously dealing with a l33t pr0 gamer here who never has any problem ever hitting a light in fact I saw him in a game once and he killed 3 Ravens with 1 shot of his AC/20 thats how good he is you're not even on his level so don't even try

it wasn't 3 ravens it was 2 commandos and a raven

[Dead Fury]

zverofaust, on 16 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Guys guys we're obviously dealing with a l33t pr0 gamer here who never has any problem ever hitting a light in fact I saw him in a game once and he killed 3 Ravens with 1 shot of his AC/20 thats how good he is you're not even on his level so don't even try

You know, because thats exactly what I said. I am not a "pro" in the slightest. I never said I that I dont have a problem hitting light mechs. I said ECM is not why they are overpowered. If the lag shield and other bugs got completely fixed, then killing lights would be much easier. ECM is not why they are overpowered. And if it is, its because everyone else has absolutely no situational awareness or communication with their team.

zverofaust, on 16 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

It isn't about them being invisible on the map, but that ECM makes their only consistent and reliable counter -- SSRMs -- absolutely useless. But I guess you're right. If netcode and hit detection actually worked they'd be a lot easier to counter and that whole "spin circles around entire enemy team and barely get hit with 6 of them shooting at me" thing wouldn't work.

Unfortunately hit detection doesn't work.

Exactly why people should focus their complaints on the netcode and not ECM that way you do not have to rely on streaks to kill lights.

Darzok, on 16 December 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I am 100% fine with how ECM is working problem is the lazy part of the player base is not willing to change with the game so they whine like mad on the forums and that is why you see so many Nerf posts.

Exactly, if people are going to whine. Whine about the bugs and glitches BEFORE you whine about game mechanics.

Edited by Unstruck Fury, 16 December 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[Nonsense]

zverofaust, on 16 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Unfortunately hit detection doesn't work.

Said the guy who apparently can't lead targets and anticipate lag.

Yes, there are hit detection problems sometimes, but your assertion that SSRMs are the only counter to light mechs is flat out wrong. I have a really low ping, but I leg ravens and commandos regularly with gauss shots and large lasers.

[Dasht e Lut]

Nope.

I've got zero problems with ECM. It's fine.

"I got 99 problems and ECM aint one!" (wait, that's not how it goes...)

[Desintegrator]

ECM has created a big, big, big (could write this 10 times...) disbalance in the group of light Mechs ! All light mechs got ECM including the Cicada (medium), but the only one which has no ECM is the Jenner. So if you would like to have a lot of fun out there, sit in your Jenner and go out there fighting the other light Ravens and Commandos with the Streaks (and EMC) !!

It is so cool to be dead in 2 seconds. And you can do nothing about it. Just try it and have a lot fun !
Your own streaks are blocked and with your medium lasers you have to shoot 5 min to bring a other light down.

With your big Assaults and Heavys, ECM should not make so much difference, because the Lights have to shoot 10 min to bring you down and they will attak all smaller Mechs first.

So if you think ECM does not have much effect, so why do you see Ravens and Commandos only in the ECM version out there on the Battlefield ?? There are also versions of Ravens and Com. without ECM but you wont see them...

Maybe this has a reason ??

Maybe the Devs would be so kind to create another big disbalance in the group of Assault mechs by implementing another cool thing ?

Maybe you can remember the time before ECM !?
Have you seen many Ravens on the Battlefield ?

And now ?

In every game i find at least one - sometimes i find up to 5 ECM Ravens out there in a single game.
And for sure, there is no reason for that...

[Dead Fury]

Desintegrator, on 16 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

ECM has created a big, big, big (could write this 10 times...) disbalance in the group of light Mechs ! All light mechs got ECM including the Cicada (medium), but the only one which has no ECM is the Jenner. So if you would like to have a lot of fun out there, sit in your Jenner and go out there fighting the other light Ravens and Commandos with the Streaks (and EMC) !!

It is so cool to be dead in 2 seconds. And you can do nothing about it. Just try it and have a lot fun !
Your own streaks are blocked and with your medium lasers you have to shoot 5 min to bring a other light down.

With your big Assaults and Heavys, ECM should not make so much difference, because the Lights have to shoot 10 min to bring you down and they will attak all smaller Mechs first.

So if you think ECM does not have much effect, so why do you see Ravens and Commandos only in the ECM version out there on the Battlefield ?? There are also versions of Ravens and Com. without ECM but you wont see them...

Maybe this has a reason ??

Maybe the Devs would be so kind to create another big disbalance in the group of Assault mechs by implementing another cool thing ?

Maybe you can remember the time before ECM !?
Have you seen many Ravens on the Battlefield ?

And now ?

In every game i find at least one - sometimes i find up to 5 ECM Ravens out there in a single game.
And for sure, there is no reason for that...

So just because you have a problem going up against ECM means its game breaking? That's weird that only you seem to have these problems yet I have never experienced any of them?

Huh. Yup. Better nerf it because 1 player can not adapt, and has to rely on streaks to kill lights (even though they are bugged, still not an ecm problem)

[Desintegrator]

Pancakeman, on 16 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I love my ECM raven. Consistently hitting 600+ damages. Razors comment about playing in pugs vs playing 8 mans is correct. It's a whole different animal.

So why dont you play with the 2X or 4X version of the Raven ??

ECM for sure, is no reason !

Unstruck Fury, on 16 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

So just because you have a problem going up against ECM means its game breaking? That's weird that only you seem to have these problems yet I have never experienced any of them?

Huh. Yup. Better nerf it because 1 player can not adapt, and has to rely on streaks to kill lights (even though they are bugged, still not an ecm problem)

You just have to do what I'm saying - sit in your Jenner and go out there !!
And have a lot of fun fighting the light ECM guys !

Unstruck Fury, on 16 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

So just because you have a problem going up against ECM means its game breaking? That's weird that only you seem to have these problems yet I have never experienced any of them?

Huh. Yup. Better nerf it because 1 player can not adapt, and has to rely on streaks to kill lights (even though they are bugged, still not an ecm problem)

The problem is not ECM - the problem is the disbalance in one group of Mechs !

[Aidan McRae]

After PUGing all morning, ECM is the first and only thing this game has introduced that has me nearly to the point of leaving and never coming back. It's too useful, with no real counters (just like you can't define a word with itself, ECM is not a legitimate counter for itself), especially being something that negates whole weapon systems. Not to mention the extra rubberbanding and lag that it has introduced, and I'm a 30ms ping player.

ECM needs to be a anti-weapon countermeasure OR an anti-sensor countermeasure, not both. I don't mind people being hidden, as long as once I put my eyes on them, I can blast away. I don't mind some weapons not working within a certain range, as long as my sensors can pick them up at normal distances. I *do* mind people having access to both for 1.5 tons and a slot. It makes the game too much ninja-rush or ninja-ambush. That's not fun.

[Dead Fury]

Aidan McRae, on 16 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

After PUGing all morning, ECM is the first and only thing this game has introduced that has me nearly to the point of leaving and never coming back. It's too useful, with no real counters (just like you can't define a word with itself, ECM is not a legitimate counter for itself), especially being something that negates whole weapon systems. Not to mention the extra rubberbanding and lag that it has introduced, and I'm a 30ms ping player.

ECM needs to be a anti-weapon countermeasure OR an anti-sensor countermeasure, not both. I don't mind people being hidden, as long as once I put my eyes on them, I can blast away. I don't mind some weapons not working within a certain range, as long as my sensors can pick them up at normal distances. I *do* mind people having access to both for 1.5 tons and a slot. It makes the game too much ninja-rush or ninja-ambush. That's not fun.

Sounds like you need more communication within your PUG. Also, you cant blame ECM just because the lights have a lag shield.

As mentioned by multiple people. Killing lights is not hard at all and dealing with the lag shield is not that difficult. ECM is fine if you have a team that can communicate, stick together, and use some situational awareness.

[JimSuperBleeder]

Sevaradan, on 16 December 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

easiest counter is to put BIG holes in the mechs carrying ecm

Yeah, really.

You kill the guy and surprise, surprise; no more targeting issues.

[Mavairo]

Sevaradan, on 16 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I do it on a regular basis.

He says with a picture of Charlie Sheen's head, riding an Atlas as his sig. Lemme Guess.

DDC Fatlas, that moves with ECM in Counter mode, in a phalanx with another pair of DDCs.

Also, I really doubt your claim. I know I can deal with ECM, as I mentioned previously it's almost arguable that a Calvary Mech is the best counter, while benefiting the most from friendly ECM in the game.

It's still completely ******** though.

Too easily spammed, too easily screwing over Artillery's role in MWO to the point that Artillery has no purpose in the game on a competitive team, when it was arguable as to it's purpose in the first place depending on your team's playstyle.

It's a problem that only other ECM reliably counters it and that in at least one instance a completely unusable information gathering system, is completely facerolled by ECM. There are 2 systems in the game which should stand a very good chance at beating ECM, one of them due to canon, and common sense reasons, along with the in game reason of needing a Necessity to have a counter, the other, because frankly it's not good for anything anyway so why not give it an actual use.

The direct counter to ECM shouldn't be "use ECM too!". It makes a complete farce out of the game disrupts build diversity, you can say "just kill the ECM!" all you like. Lets say Gauss did 40 damage a shot instead of 15. Would your statement be, "kill the gauss user it's countered!!!" I highly doubt it. And if you did, any right you have to provide feedback for beta testing should be revoked. While ECM isn't as bad as a 40 damage gauss weapon would be, for -non missile users-, for missile users it might as well be a 40 damage guass round hitting their cockpits.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather play a deep game with more than just 'field some ECM in counter mode and focus fire enemy ECM!" running round, barring the odd Calvary player here and there. Let Information Warfare, actually be that not just equip some ECM and /faceroll your way across the battlefield and render intel gathering methods completely pointless, and completely negate Streaks and LRMs. ECM has removed 3 things from MWO effectively right now. 1, Intel Gathering, there's no working counter outside of using ECM yourself, 2 LRMs are a complete farce now, to say nothing of streaks. 3 it made already dire conditioned systems such as the NARC completely unusable. 4. It's turned the game into ''lets just get in and dog pile, or atlernatively we just base rush" 5. It disrupts team work, by eliminating targeting information, when there's no other counter but ECM.

You can not deny that ECM has completely reshaped the metagame. LRMs (which post artemis nerf were already in iffy territory) are almost never taken. Streaks, have been pretty much moved to ECM mechs. It didn't reshape the game in positive way. It didn't introduce proper information warfare. Infact it completely screwed what little information warfare there is in the game and stomped on it. All it did was promote brawling and Calvary raiding.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 December 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[mike29tw]

Nonsense, on 16 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

You're going to want to elaborate on that.

The only way to neutralize ECM effect is...ECM itself.

Not to mention ECM weighs only 1.5 ton, and deals such a huge impact on the field.

Sevaradan, on 16 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I do, and run a mixed lance with only 4 ecm usually and do well.

Out of 44 mech variants in the game, only 4 of them can equip ECM, and you run a lance with "only" 4 ecm?

You don't see the problem yet?

[Sevaradan]

mike29tw, on 16 December 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

You don't see the problem yet?

no because there isn't one.

remember that a number of those ecm equipped mechs were the best variant of that mech to begin with, the DDC was the 1st choice for assaults long before ECM was added.

[Trauglodyte]

I have an issue with the ECM making the carrier and everyone within 180m invisible. It encourages ninja caps and that's just boring game play. BUT, I understand PGI doing this because in TT there was no means of "stealthing" the carrier as the entire game was played from overhead. SO, they added it in as a feature.

My biggest issue with ECM is that there isn't adequate balance between the three near equivalents that carry it (I'm disregarding the D-DC at the moment). The Commando 2D carries 3 Streaks, the Raven 3L carries 2 Md Lasers and 2 Streaks, the Cicada 3M can carry an UAC5/AC 5 and ECM or a Lrg Laser and 3 Md Lasers. With the Net Code being what it is, comparing a full compliment of lasers vs Streaks, which we all know are horribly imbalanced, puts the Raven far ahead of its heavier breathren and its armor makes it better than its smaller cousin, the Mando. So, it isn't so much that ECM is imbalanced as it is the combination of ECM and Streaks.

And, just to add what has been said above, ECM makes two already poor systems even worse. BAP and NARC were bad before ECM and now they're just more pointless, as if that were even possible.

[Livewyr]

probably like being the only player who was OK with LRMs a few patches ago. player base was just too lazy to adjust.

/sarcasm

LRMs used to be in every match in huge numbers. (1-4mechs per match)
that was considered a problem
ECM is now in every match in huge numbers (1-5 mechs in every match) and LRMs are like a Sasquatch sighting comparatively.
and that is not considered a problem?

overpowered LRMs have all but entirely been replaced by ECM. that should say something...but due to people's self centered balance standard..they think it's great.

[mike29tw]

Sevaradan, on 16 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

no because there isn't one.

remember that a number of those ecm equipped mechs were the best variant of that mech to begin with, the DDC was the 1st choice for assaults long before ECM was added.

Uh, so the ECM mech were already the best variant......that means ECM does not limit the choice between each variant !!

How stupid I didn't think of that. Great argument.