345 replies to this topic

[DerMaulwurf]

I like the lack of RnR.

Balancing advanced technology by repair costs always had a certain P2W smell for me, because it pushed people to premium accounts to sustain the shinies (sooner for bad players later for the pros).

Plus RnR is not "an essential part of BT". That's just not true. I had fun with extensive campaigns where it played a major role, but many games are just played as one-offs with balancing by BV.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

IMO the problem with R&R is that the economy is way too simplified. I really would like to see R&R as part of financing but at this state of the game it is nearly impossible. On the other hand, without R&R it feels too much like grinding money from battle to battle without having to think about the cost. It is common sense that if you buy expensive stuff the more expensive it is to repair. You don't crash a 2012 Mercedes either, or if you do it'll cost you.

[FrostPaw]

I would like to see repairs back, rearming I don't really care about since that simply favors weapons that don't use ammo.

[T0rment0r]

I almost sold my Atlas, because of the ridiculous repair costs. I made money at least twice as fast, if I just took a Trial light-mech and ran inside the enemy fire to get as many target-spots as possible. A 'tactic', that I didnt pursue many games, since it makes you a useless pain in the *** for the whole team.
It just can't be the case, that I make much more money with a Trial-Mech while losing, than with an owned Atlas while winning! Owning a mech shouldnt be a disadvantage, especially if its the most expensive friggin mech in the whole game.
And please don't tell me stuff like: "Then dont get hit so much. Play more defensive."
It's a damn Atlas and it's big. People just love going after it, because it's huge and slow. Always the easiest target to hit. It can take a beating, but repair costs are inevitable no matter how well you play.
So if they bring the whole mechanic back, they should at least keep that in mind or I'm going to eat my keyboard.

Edited by T0rment0r, 22 December 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[Aym]

No they should not. Either you punish larger mechs (more armor and other stuff to repair) or you charge a flat fee to repair any-and-everything. On the one hand punishing larger mechs runs directly counter to role warfare, either larger mechs are the end-game and are just better than lighter mechs, OR you have role warfare. On the other hand, you have basically what we have now.

[M0rpHeu5]

The new system is simple, Pugs getting a lot more money, premades get a lot less money so it evens up everyone while still the better player or the winning team gets more. What's not to like. Premades, think of the game and the community too, not only yourselves

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 22 December 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Flapdrol]

I dont miss repair and rearm, but I do miss the high income when you turned it off. Right now it's taking me forever to make enough to buy my third stalker.

A win makes me about 90000-130000 usually, a loss 50000-90000, I guess it's about 75 games or something, ridiculous.

there's going to be a lot of smurf accounts of people just maxing one variant of mech on one account off of the 25 game trial bonus, additional advantage is you dont have to spend MC to buy mechbays, only downside is slight inconvenience having to log in agian for another mech, then agian you do avoid the memory leak by restarting the client often.

[Deadoon]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 December 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Wrong, still attractive ... smth like XL 350-370 instead of standart 350-370 would save you like 20 tons. Those 20 tons you can use for extra ammo you lose coz of artemis or extra weapons and armor or whatever. Or you can say upgrade from your standart 250 to XL 350 and add a lot of speed this way, which in turn will make you run much faster. And trust me, the faster you move, the more weapons and heat sinks you have the harder it for your enemy to kill you even through the side torso either because you are fast and hard to hit, or simply because you will kill them faster. Besides, I'm not so sure that artemis will actually make you lose ammo, yes you'll have less ammo but more of them missiles will hit due to increased accuracy.

Repair and rearm is an essential part of BT - you wanna use artemis, be prepared to pay 100-120k rearm every game, you wanna use MadCat, be prepared to pay 24m for it, and 200k to repair it. As I said, no RNR is just a crutch, and yeah it seems to be less afk'ers now and people actually try to fight, but like every crutch PGI uses now it must be gone sooner or later.

Xl engines double the slot usage of the engine and triple your vulnerable locations. If an xl engine is so much better mind you, why does it give only .5 BV of your engine for battletech? Oh right you are easier to kill thus it is opposite of it's cost. Yes that's right, that XL engine you love so much has a maintence cost that is inverse of it's BV. That XL engine makes your kill zones truly XL after all. TT is so very accurate in this aspect.

Xl engines are deadly, to the user usually, they allow for a lot more weapons and ammo flex but make several systems entirely useless. You gain a bit of firepower that was otherwise unavailable, but at the cost of survivability they are a glass cannon's engine at best. The survivalist that fights to the bitter end will likely lose a bit of armor and a limb, but can still take you out with less firepower. The main thing I dislike about the D-Dc is lack of center weapons really.

You don't complain about regular lrm being able to function with narc beacons do you? Narc capable missiles cost the same as Artemis missiles. So you are getting half off missiles without Artemis anyways. RnR at it's core is a way to make people pay real money to use better gear, you know what that's called? Pay 2 Win. Balance without RnR is better balance than p2w balanced gear.

Why should Person A using premium time be able to afford Special missiles which home in better than person B's because person B cannot afford premium?

Also clantech is a horrible example of RnR. Balance them by upping their weight classes for example, a clan light is a IS medium, A Centurion or hunch can easily compare to a Puma for example, properly loaded. A madcat can load similar weapons(missiles aside due to weight of clan missiles) to an atlas, stalker or in some cases an awesome.

[Elder Thorn]

Deadoon, on 22 December 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Xl engines double the slot usage of the engine and triple your vulnerable locations. If an xl engine is so much better mind you, why does it give only .5 BV of your engine for battletech? Oh right you are easier to kill thus it is opposite of it's cost. Yes that's right, that XL engine you love so much has a maintence cost that is inverse of it's BV. That XL engine makes your kill zones truly XL after all. TT is so very accurate in this aspect.

Xl engines are deadly, to the user usually, they allow for a lot more weapons and ammo flex but make several systems entirely useless. You gain a bit of firepower that was otherwise unavailable, but at the cost of survivability they are a glass cannon's engine at best. The survivalist that fights to the bitter end will likely lose a bit of armor and a limb, but can still take you out with less firepower. The main thing I dislike about the D-Dc is lack of center weapons really.

You don't complain about regular lrm being able to function with narc beacons do you? Narc capable missiles cost the same as Artemis missiles. So you are getting half off missiles without Artemis anyways. RnR at it's core is a way to make people pay real money to use better gear, you know what that's called? Pay 2 Win. Balance without RnR is better balance than p2w balanced gear.

Why should Person A using premium time be able to afford Special missiles which home in better than person B's because person B cannot afford premium?

Also clantech is a horrible example of RnR. Balance them by upping their weight classes for example, a clan light is a IS medium, A Centurion or hunch can easily compare to a Puma for example, properly loaded. A madcat can load similar weapons(missiles aside due to weight of clan missiles) to an atlas, stalker or in some cases an awesome.

that might all be true for the TT, but in a game like this, on some Mechs the XL engine isn't that deadly for the user but is a huge advantage, for example light mechs, Catapult or Dragon. I even used to run AWS-8R as a brawler with XL engine during CB when we had to pay arround 4 million (i think) to repair the engine, compared to maybe 1 million for a std engine, and this AWS was a killer machine.

Clantech is NOT a horrible example for RnR, what about a Clan Weapon, like Gaus? This thing doesn't have a single downside compared to IS Gaus, except it's price. If you make things like this available, basically for free, for everyone, those won't be optional upgrades or sidegrades, they will be mandatory upgrades and this will soon become boring, esspecially for players that are new at that time and won't be able to buy those things right away. They will be at a even more huge disadvantage as they are anyway due to lacking experience.

It's NOT pay2win with RnR, pay2win is if there are things you can buy for real money EXCLUSIVELY that are plain better than anything else in the game.

[AsakuraZero]

get RnR just after getting CW into the game, as someone said in skirmishes this doesnt really fit

[Deadoon]

Elder Thorn, on 22 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

that might all be true for the TT, but in a game like this, on some Mechs the XL engine isn't that deadly for the user but is a huge advantage, for example light mechs, Catapult or Dragon. I even used to run AWS-8R as a brawler with XL engine during CB when we had to pay arround 4 million (i think) to repair the engine, compared to maybe 1 million for a std engine, and this AWS was a killer machine.

Clantech is NOT a horrible example for RnR, what about a Clan Weapon, like Gaus? This thing doesn't have a single downside compared to IS Gaus, except it's price. If you make things like this available, basically for free, for everyone, those won't be optional upgrades or sidegrades, they will be mandatory upgrades and this will soon become boring, esspecially for players that are new at that time and won't be able to buy those things right away. They will be at a even more huge disadvantage as they are anyway due to lacking experience.

It's NOT pay2win with RnR, pay2win is if there are things you can buy for real money EXCLUSIVELY that are plain better than anything else in the game.

CLan tech is a horrible example, because it actually doesn't cost more you know, it costs the exact same, a 375 xl engine costs 7.5 million in a 75 ton mech 1.2 million for it's gyro or 8.7 million in mwo terms, 360k for the structure and armor, 550k for the myomer, cockpit and life support. Hey guess what, for the shell of a madcat you can buy an atlas. This is before omnipod usage or anything.

Clan tech is always better, no two ways around it balancing it with an out of battle solution merely makes it a cool-down like item, a reusable consumable item.

RnR is pay 2 win, why? It specifically gives a clear advantage to those which pay money to use high maintenance gear.

Anecdotal evidence isn't valid mind you, XL engines have a built in downside, whether or not your personal world has them.

If I use a standard engine, I can survive a torso loss, if i have an IS xl, I cannot, no two ways about that.

Edited by Deadoon, 22 December 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[DeaconW]

BoomDog, on 18 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Two reasons why this was a good idea.

1. People can now play the mech they want to play when trying to make cbills.

2. It removes the dramatic disadvantage solo pug players have when trying to make cbills. It didn't matter how good the player is, if he is fighting a 4 man team, odds are that he's going to lose.

They should have fixed the matchmaker to solve this. Real problem, wrong solution.

[DeaconW]

Deadoon, on 22 December 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

RnR is pay 2 win,

"Pay to Win"...I don't think that phrase means what you think it means....

[Flapdrol]

DeaconW, on 22 December 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

"Pay to Win"...I don't think that phrase means what you think it means....

well, state the definition then.

[Elder Thorn]

Flapdrol, on 22 December 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

well, state the definition then.

Elder Thorn, on 22 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

It's NOT pay2win with RnR, pay2win is if there are things you can buy for real money EXCLUSIVELY that are plain better than anything else in the game.

it's an old discussion and i don't think that anyone will convince anyone else to his point of view on that

[Deadoon]

DeaconW, on 22 December 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

"Pay to Win"...I don't think that phrase means what you think it means....

I gave you one, premium time causes weapons that are not usable due to excessive costs to be usable.

Lets use the good old urban dictionary for help with this definition issue that you will not accept any other answer for apparently.

Quote

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

In this case it would be allowing people to use better items more often.

I am arguing from a standpoint that is;
Must be at 100%
Must be fully loaded on your mech. (maxed tonnage)
Must have at least 1 weapon on your mech.(if ballistic, has to have ammo as well for it)
To be able to launch.

Welfare ammo needed to go away, it was detrimental to the team and was exploitative of the system. Welfare repairs also needed to go for the same reason. Unless you force people to fully reload/rearm. The old system was useless.

Keep No repair rearm for the normal player, when community warfare comes around, reserve it for the house players and give mercs a system similar to before, with the same requirements to launch as a House player, full repair, rearm, has mech fully loaded(no spare tonnage/wasted tonnage) and has to carry at least 1 weapon.

DeaconW, on 22 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

They should have fixed the matchmaker to solve this. Real problem, wrong solution.

Because creating, stabilizing and having algorithms that work properly and do not impact play enough to drive players away is an easy manner.

Edited by Deadoon, 22 December 2012 - 07:00 AM.

[Elder Thorn]

Deadoon, on 22 December 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Lets use the good old urban dictionary for help with this definition issue that you will not accept any other answer for apparently.

urban dictionary, the pool of pure truth and wisdom, just like wikipedia.

tbh, i think the discussion about what p2w is or is not, drives this thread off-topic, as i stated before, we won't convince anyone else on this, so the discussion is kind of pointless right now. I mean come on... this is the internet.

I agree with you, welfare ammo and repairs needed to go away. I would have combined that with the RnR system, so you had the choice to drop repaired or not, but if your mech was cored or had no legs left, there would have been no way to drop, and if you achievend nothing in that match, you would had have to pay more for the repairs than you got for it so afk grinding isn't possible.

[Deadoon]

Elder Thorn, on 22 December 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

urban dictionary, the pool of pure truth and wisdom, just like wikipedia.

tbh, i think the discussion about what p2w is or is not, drives this thread off-topic, as i stated before, we won't convince anyone else on this, so the discussion is kind of pointless right now. I mean come on... this is the internet.

I agree with you, welfare ammo and repairs needed to go away. I would have combined that with the RnR system, so you had the choice to drop repaired or not, but if your mech was cored or had no legs left, there would have been no way to drop, and if you achievend nothing in that match, you would had have to pay more for the repairs than you got for it so afk grinding isn't possible.

Wikipedia is inaccurate, what.
It is equal to if not better than any encyclopedia you can buy, and in many cases is more in dept, this has been proven over and over again.
Also, and 11 to 1 agree to disagree ratio on something, no matter where means that the majority agrees.

Also rather than refute any of my claims you ignore and avoid them entirely now. You only agree so that I stop poking holes in your arguments.

Also you do fail to factor in the very reason why suicide farmers exist it isn't repairs or anything it is effortless money caused by a participation bonus.

Edited by Deadoon, 22 December 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Elder Thorn]

Deadoon, on 22 December 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Wikipedia is inaccurate, what.
It is equal to if not better than any encyclopedia you can buy, and in many cases is more in dept, this has been proven over and over again.

Also rather than refute any of my claims you ignore and avoid them entirely now. You only agree so that I stop poking holes in your arguments.

no, i stated that before.

Elder Thorn, on 22 December 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

it's an old discussion and i don't think that anyone will convince anyone else to his point of view on that

Anyone can write anything into wikipedia, i can write an article about pay2win there, submit it and then? Does it become true for you whatever i write there?

I do not agree, so you stop, i agree that welfare RnR was stupid, but i would have combined the removal of it with the things i said, look for my older posts in this thread, i said that before (or in another thread, i don't remember).

I can't argue about RnR only for CW, because i haven't thought about that yet, it might be a good idea, it might not. I still don't like no RnR at all.

[PhoenixFire55]

As I said, I do believe RNR comes back together with meta-game, community warfare, contracts and stuff like that, aka better economy.