345 replies to this topic

[Dayuhan]

Yes. Repair and Rearm need to return and the 75% for free needs to go away. Their are very few penalties as it is to this game and without Repair and Rearm their is absolutely no downside to losing a battle. This is supposed to be a game that requires strategy to win, one of the main aspects of strategy is the consequences of an action. If we keep taking away all the negative consequences and keep only the positive ones (XP and C-bills) then this game loses one of the few things that distincts it from all the other FPS games out there.

[AlanEsh]

Dayuhan, on 26 December 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yes. Repair and Rearm need to return and the 75% for free needs to go away. Their are very few penalties as it is to this game and without Repair and Rearm their is absolutely no downside to losing a battle. This is supposed to be a game that requires strategy to win, one of the main aspects of strategy is the consequences of an action. If we keep taking away all the negative consequences and keep only the positive ones (XP and C-bills) then this game loses one of the few things that distincts it from all the other FPS games out there.

So, LRMs, SRMs, and ACs are -so much- of an advantage, they need a re-arm tax to make them economically balanced?

See, this is the problem with Rearm costs -- there is no UP side to using ammo weapons.

I would welcome the return of repair costs, but not rearm because they make zero game-sense.

[Elessar]

Repair costs were a good way to balance Hi Tec equipment (like XL engines) I´d definitely would like to have them back (maybe just rebalance the costs)

[Aeolus Drift]

if I could voice my honest opinion, I think MWO has had much larger issues to deal with then there being no RnR. In terms of gameplay there have been a wide variety of issues that have plagued MWO in the actual multiplayer, lag shields, weapon convergence, Streak spam, ECM on almost every mech, and light mech hit-boxes just to name a few. However it is possible that the pool of data on certain weapons, mechs, and tech in game is perhaps insufficient in order to make any changes meaningful or useful. Perhaps I'm speaking from naivete, but it seems to me that allowing for the temporary removal of RnR would allow for a more broad sampling of data so that they can test where things are broken.

[Orthodontist]

Prefer it how it is now.

Before it was a bureaucratic red-tape/un-enjoyable experience to R&R a mech after a match. I'll take the adjusted income/payouts for a more enjoyable, stream-lined multiplayer-centric experience any day.

It didnt' add depth or have a place, it just took more time to get back into a match and had you micro-managing your C-bills.

[Dayuhan]

Angelicon, on 26 December 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

So, LRMs, SRMs, and ACs are -so much- of an advantage, they need a re-arm tax to make them economically balanced?

See, this is the problem with Rearm costs -- there is no UP side to using ammo weapons.

I would welcome the return of repair costs, but not rearm because they make zero game-sense.

This comes down to a difference of opinion. My opinion is that buying ammunition for weapons is not any different from repairing the armor on the 'mech - this is not a 'tax' it is the cost of maintaining the 'mechs battle-readiness. The upside to using ANY weapon is subjective, some people love using energy-builds because they require no ammunition others will say energy builds are too hot. Some like LRMs because they like to soften their targets up at range, others will say LRMS are useless, the same can be said for virtually every weapon in the game. The point here is that every weapon has its upsides and downsides, one of the downsides for ammunition consuming weapons is that they use ammunition.

Part of the immersive experience in the original Battletech, and as such also MWO which is based on Battletech, was the costs associated with keeping the Mercenary unit going from one contract to another. The Mercenary unit had to weigh how much they would charge against the cost of taking the mission. Good mercenary units found the right balance between their fee and the cost of repairs, bad mercenary units found themselves fielding 'mechs with damaged or missing parts because their contract did not cover the cost to repair everything.

Right now Community Warfare is not implemented so the associated costs of combat are being charged as if you were a Lone Wolf mercenary - that is you have to pay your own bills. We do not have enough information yet to speculate how CW is going to be implemented but I envision that House units will cover most, if not all, of the repair costs but you will have very little say as to which missions you go on. Mercenary units will be able to pool their resources so each member of the unit will have access to the full resources of the unit - and will have a choice of which missions they accept from the House they are currently contracted too. Lone Wolf players will pay their own way but can go anywhere their resources can take them as have no allegiences.

[AlanEsh]

Dayuhan, on 27 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

The point here is that every weapon has its upsides and downsides, one of the downsides for ammunition consuming weapons is that they use ammunition.

OK show me the UP sides of the ammo weapons as they stand right now in game. Show me where they have enough UPs to warrant that massive DOWN of paying from 25%-75% of your earnings to Rearm.

This is the crux of whether or not there should be a Rearm feature in the game. Unless you're going to make it so Lasers need to replace their optics after every match, there should be no Rearm fee for ammo weapons because, as I said before, there is no game-blance UP side to counter it.

This game doesn't need more reason to ditch LRMs and ACs for lasers -- removing Rearm was a good move. (although Repair should have been left in the game to put a little risk against the obviously improved performance of equipping Endo/FF/XL engines)

[Dayuhan]

Angelicon, on 27 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

OK show me the UP sides of the ammo weapons as they stand right now in game. Show me where they have enough UPs to warrant that massive DOWN of paying from 25%-75% of your earnings to Rearm.

This is the crux of whether or not there should be a Rearm feature in the game. Unless you're going to make it so Lasers need to replace their optics after every match, there should be no Rearm fee for ammo weapons because, as I said before, there is no game-blance UP side to counter it.

This game doesn't need more reason to ditch LRMs and ACs for lasers -- removing Rearm was a good move. (although Repair should have been left in the game to put a little risk against the obviously improved performance of equipping Endo/FF/XL engines)

These are the upsides I see for ammunition weapons, at least the ones I have personnaly used:
1) LRMs - These have a longer range than any energy weapon except the ERPPC. They can be fired indirectly so you do not have to expose yourself to return fire to use them. They spread their damage across multiple locations thus increasing the chance of a critical hit on 'mechs that are already damaged.
2) AC10 - A good medium range weapon that does 10 points of damage to a single location. Generates very little heat compared to the PPC or ERPPC which are the only energy weapons that deal this much direct damage.
3) LBX10 - A shotgun that spreads its damage over multiple areas, has a slightly better range than the AC10. A very good chance of generating a critical hit once through the armor. Again generates very little heat for the damage done.
4) SRMs - SRM2, SRM4, and SRM6. They have a good short range punch that can do massive amounts of damage in very little time - especially with multiple launchers firing in sequence. Do a decent amount of damage for very little heat. If all the missles hit from a single SRM6 you are doing more damage than any energy weapon in the game at a faster Rate-of-Fire; and even if only half the missles hit you are averaging better than most energy weapons.
5) Streak SRMS - All the benefits of SRMs above plus the benefit of cannot miss once they lock-on.
6) Gauss rifle - Virtually no heat in exchange for being one of the longest range weapons in the game. Does more direct damage than any energy weapon in the game.
7) Ultra AC5 - The ability to put out a near continuous stream of direct-fire damage for short periods of time. This weapon does 5 points of damage to two locations. A 'mech carrying two of them can keep this up almost continuously. I specified short periods of time above because the Ultra's do jam if used for too long - but this jam now auto clears in a few seconds.
8) AC2 - Currently the longest ranged weapon available in the game. Like the Gauss rifle generates virtually no heat for the damage it does and can be fired on recycle meaning it can pretty much spew lead continuously. Two points of damage may not seem like much until you see two of these chew through a 'mechs back armor at long range without fear of retaliation.
9) AC20 - 20 points of damage to a single location. The only 'mechs that can take more than one round from these are Assaults.

[Mad Elf]

Dayuhan, on 27 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

5) Streak SRMS - All the benefits of SRMs above plus the benefit of cannot miss once they lock-on.

I really wish people would stop saying this; it's patently not true. "Will not miss a stationary or slow-moving target" is much more accurate; they haven't been "cannot miss" for at least two months.

[AC]

64% want R&R back in some form. I want it back minus free reload. But reload costs need to go down. Energy and missile/AC mechs need to cost the nearly the same to run. Missiles and ac have reload costs, but energy have heat sink repairs if things go bad. This should be fairly easy to balance.

[ltwally]

The old repair vs reward system was badly flawed -- more expensive mechs (with more expensive gear) received the same base rewards as a plain-jane model, while the repair costs were radically higher.

The old rearm system was also badly flawed -- more expensive, ammo dependent weapons could soak up most of your winnings. And that's when you're only being charged 25%.

Some people thought this was "Real World". Those people were wrong, and I'll bet not a single one of them has ever worked as an independent contractor, where the dollar value of the toys you bring to the job directly factors into your fees.

So the old system was badly flawed, where the player that upgraded his mech found himself being financially punished for doing so.

The new system, however, also has its flaws. Rewards seem somewhat low, and the damage/kill bonus seems to far out-strip all the other bonuses combined. Scouts see limited rewards, and capture bonuses are outright pathetic. That fact, combined with the horrid mess that ECM brings to the field, seems to have rather quickly turned MW:O into a brawl-fest. If you want to earn C-Bills, brawling is how it's done.


So, in summation: It wasn't good before, and it's not good now. It's just bad in different ways. Yay!



PS. Your poll is deeply flawed -- discussing repair/rearm without discussing rewards is pointless; they are two sides of the same coin, and need to be taken into account together.

Edited by ltwally, 28 December 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[ltwally]

Dayuhan, on 27 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

These are the upsides I see for ammunition weapons, at least the ones I have personnaly used:
1) LRMs - These have a longer range than any energy weapon except the ERPPC. They can be fired indirectly so you do not have to expose yourself to return fire to use them. They spread their damage across multiple locations thus increasing the chance of a critical hit on 'mechs that are already damaged.
2) AC10 - A good medium range weapon that does 10 points of damage to a single location. Generates very little heat compared to the PPC or ERPPC which are the only energy weapons that deal this much direct damage.
3) LBX10 - A shotgun that spreads its damage over multiple areas, has a slightly better range than the AC10. A very good chance of generating a critical hit once through the armor. Again generates very little heat for the damage done.
4) SRMs - SRM2, SRM4, and SRM6. They have a good short range punch that can do massive amounts of damage in very little time - especially with multiple launchers firing in sequence. Do a decent amount of damage for very little heat. If all the missles hit from a single SRM6 you are doing more damage than any energy weapon in the game at a faster Rate-of-Fire; and even if only half the missles hit you are averaging better than most energy weapons.
5) Streak SRMS - All the benefits of SRMs above plus the benefit of cannot miss once they lock-on.
6) Gauss rifle - Virtually no heat in exchange for being one of the longest range weapons in the game. Does more direct damage than any energy weapon in the game.
7) Ultra AC5 - The ability to put out a near continuous stream of direct-fire damage for short periods of time. This weapon does 5 points of damage to two locations. A 'mech carrying two of them can keep this up almost continuously. I specified short periods of time above because the Ultra's do jam if used for too long - but this jam now auto clears in a few seconds.
8) AC2 - Currently the longest ranged weapon available in the game. Like the Gauss rifle generates virtually no heat for the damage it does and can be fired on recycle meaning it can pretty much spew lead continuously. Two points of damage may not seem like much until you see two of these chew through a 'mechs back armor at long range without fear of retaliation.
9) AC20 - 20 points of damage to a single location. The only 'mechs that can take more than one round from these are Assaults.

Let's discuss a few downsides, just for perspective:

1) LRMs -- They move slowly and can easily be dodged by moving behind cover. Very few direct-fire weapons give you much opportunity for this. You get an "incoming missile" indicator to help you do this. AMS and ECM both help protect you, and last I knew there was nothing that would do so against direct-fire weapons. You're only really in danger if you're out in the open, with no AMS or ECM to shield you, and several enemy mechs really lay into you. So, LRMs aren't nearly as awesome as you make them out to be.

2) AC/10 vs PPC -- PPC/ERPPC have forth-coming EMP-like side-effects, so this debate is not finished by far. Knowing PGI, the EMP effects will be rather substantial. Probably shutting down your mech for 10 minutes or so. (That's sarcasm, but there's a shred of truth in there...)

3) LB-10X -- Isn't worth all that much unless you've already stripped away armour with other weaponry. That's why you don't see so many of these.

4) SRMs -- Their spread is pretty bad (unless you purchase Artemis, which is expensive and takes up space/weight); at 100m and aiming at a slow moving target, you can expect about 25% of a SRM-6 to miss. If you or the target is fast moving, or the range is greater, the problem gets worse very quickly. Yes, they do good damage... but only if you hit. Also, there's the fire-delay that makes them even less useful in a close-quarters brawl.

5) S-SRM -- Take up a precious missile hardpoint for only 2 tubes, have about a 90% chance to hit a torso location. So, they're only truly powerful in numbers. And inside an ECM field you can't even dumb-fire the things, making them worse than wasted space -- they're a potential ammo explosion and you get no use out of them. Yes, S-SRM are in need of something to make larger numbers of tubes less valuable. However, they're not as strong as you make them out to be.

6) Gauss -- Takes up lots of space, has limited ammo, and the weapon itself is pretty fragile. Though it's still better than most ballistic weapons, it's not the end-all-be-all weapon it once was.

7) U-AC/5 -- This sucker is pretty powerful, but the ammo dependency and jam issue combine to make it less awesome than it first appears. Still, it's one of the better autocannons (if not the best).

8) AC/2 -- The range isn't much of an issue, because repeatedly hitting a target at long range is extremely difficult. At medium range it's pretty good, but it falls short of other autocannons. At close range, even with its high rate of fire, it's fairly "meh". This weapon really is a speciality item.

9) AC/20 -- Great damage. Slow shot + fire delay == very hard to hit moving targets. Also, the statement that only an Atlas can stomach a hit by one of these is patently wrong. A well armoured medium mech can take two shots in most locations before the armour is gone, and just about anything beyond a Commando can soak at least one shot. I love the AC/20, but it's not Super-Man.

These are just a few that come to mind by me, off the cuff. So, these ammo-heavy weapons are, indeed, fairly balanced.

Oh, and let's not forget: AMMUNITION CAN EXPLODE. HEAT SINKS DO NOT.

[Dayuhan]

Mad Elf, on 28 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

I really wish people would stop saying this; it's patently not true. "Will not miss a stationary or slow-moving target" is much more accurate; they haven't been "cannot miss" for at least two months.

It was fixed several updates ago.

Quote

Open Beta Update #3

Upcoming Patch - Tuesday Nov. 20th @ 10AM – 1PM PDT


Change Log
________________________________________

Update

Greetings MechWarriors, Welcome to Open Beta Update 3! This patch includes the Cataphact CTf-1X, 2X, 3D, and 4X (see details Bellow). This is a welcome addition to our Heavy Mech line-up bringing more variety to our battlefield. We have also expanded on our Information warfare pillar with the addition of Beagle active probe and 2 new Modules.


{ SNIP NEW BATTLEMECH INFO }


GENERAL

* Beagle Active Probe (increases sensor range by 25%, faster target level acquisition by 25%, allows targeting of unpowered mechs within 120m)
* Back Face Target Retention Module (Allows to see your primary target on radar if they get behind you and are within 200m)
* Sensor Range Booster Pilot Module (Increases sensor range by 15%)
* Players can only exchange XP to GXP after the given Mech has had all BASIC efficiencies unlocked. (Does NOT require elite, just basics for the Mech that has XP on it.)
* Players in a group can now ready up by clicking their status in the group list instead of the master Launch button.
* Proper notification given when the player group is full.
* Tweaked the display of AMS in weapon loadout. (Displays the # of active AMS modules which are displayed at the bottom of your weapon configuration list.)
* Extra information on the BattleGrid is now OFF by default. Press I to turn them back on.
* BattleGrid base markers in spectator mode now displays correctly.
* Jump Jets can no longer be activated when knocked down.
* Coordinates now displayed with F9.
* Weapon Lock system made system authoritative to prevent cheaters from gaining faster locks
* SSRMs were doing less damage than designed, that is now fixed.
* SSRMs will now hit 100% unless something in the way or latency issues.
* A rare crash when loading into level has been addressed.

[Dayuhan]

ltwally, on 28 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Let's discuss a few downsides, just for perspective:

1) LRMs -- They move slowly and can easily be dodged by moving behind cover. Very few direct-fire weapons give you much opportunity for this. You get an "incoming missile" indicator to help you do this. AMS and ECM both help protect you, and last I knew there was nothing that would do so against direct-fire weapons. You're only really in danger if you're out in the open, with no AMS or ECM to shield you, and several enemy mechs really lay into you. So, LRMs aren't nearly as awesome as you make them out to be.

2) AC/10 vs PPC -- PPC/ERPPC have forth-coming EMP-like side-effects, so this debate is not finished by far. Knowing PGI, the EMP effects will be rather substantial. Probably shutting down your mech for 10 minutes or so. (That's sarcasm, but there's a shred of truth in there...)

3) LB-10X -- Isn't worth all that much unless you've already stripped away armour with other weaponry. That's why you don't see so many of these.

4) SRMs -- Their spread is pretty bad (unless you purchase Artemis, which is expensive and takes up space/weight); at 100m and aiming at a slow moving target, you can expect about 25% of a SRM-6 to miss. If you or the target is fast moving, or the range is greater, the problem gets worse very quickly. Yes, they do good damage... but only if you hit. Also, there's the fire-delay that makes them even less useful in a close-quarters brawl.

5) S-SRM -- Take up a precious missile hardpoint for only 2 tubes, have about a 90% chance to hit a torso location. So, they're only truly powerful in numbers. And inside an ECM field you can't even dumb-fire the things, making them worse than wasted space -- they're a potential ammo explosion and you get no use out of them. Yes, S-SRM are in need of something to make larger numbers of tubes less valuable. However, they're not as strong as you make them out to be.

6) Gauss -- Takes up lots of space, has limited ammo, and the weapon itself is pretty fragile. Though it's still better than most ballistic weapons, it's not the end-all-be-all weapon it once was.

7) U-AC/5 -- This sucker is pretty powerful, but the ammo dependency and jam issue combine to make it less awesome than it first appears. Still, it's one of the better autocannons (if not the best).

8) AC/2 -- The range isn't much of an issue, because repeatedly hitting a target at long range is extremely difficult. At medium range it's pretty good, but it falls short of other autocannons. At close range, even with its high rate of fire, it's fairly "meh". This weapon really is a speciality item.

9) AC/20 -- Great damage. Slow shot + fire delay == very hard to hit moving targets. Also, the statement that only an Atlas can stomach a hit by one of these is patently wrong. A well armoured medium mech can take two shots in most locations before the armour is gone, and just about anything beyond a Commando can soak at least one shot. I love the AC/20, but it's not Super-Man.

These are just a few that come to mind by me, off the cuff. So, these ammo-heavy weapons are, indeed, fairly balanced.

Oh, and let's not forget: AMMUNITION CAN EXPLODE. HEAT SINKS DO NOT.

Yes, every weapon has its benefits and its drawbacks my original answer was in response to someone who had the opinion that ammo consuming weapons have no benefits. I was asked to name some and did so. I am quite aware that they also have their detractions just have energy weapons also have their detractions - the primary one being the amount of heat they do versus the amount of damage they inflict. Again as with my answer before this comes down to a matter of opinion and I have already provided mine.

Bit this whole side-topic is really a detraction from the OP. After reading all the arguements and opinions given thus far in this thread I am still of the opinion that their should be a charge to re-arm the 'mech after the ammunition is consumed.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Dayuhan, on 28 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

I am still of the opinion that their should be a charge to re-arm the 'mech after the ammunition is consumed.

Also the reward system must change. If you use all your ammo effectively for example hit ratio of 0.95 you should be able to re-arm without losing C-Bill.

[Conjure]

Bah I'm making far less money than I was prior to the patch :/ I felt repair and salvage added some serious depth to the way people played. You had to worry about expensive ammo, make shots count a little more, maybe pilot a little harder to save the damage on your XL engine etc.

Idea- have two contract levels for each game mode. Average contract and Vetran Contract.

Average contract-

The economy as is from latest patch. No rearm or repair

Vetran contract-

Re arm and repair with significantly higher gaines for wins and significantly lower gains for losses.

For the win you make the slightly higher money for objectives and kills. You make significantly more money for the win itself.

Losing you make enough to cover repair and re arm costs per the contract. Maybe make a little bit more for caps and kills. But make sure it gives you significantly less cash than a loss in Average Contract mode.

This could open up small ingame contracts too to make even more money. Purchase a contract to leg a mech, a contract for 10 spot targets, a contract for two kills etc.


A fair balance maybe?

Edited by Conjure, 28 December 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[ltwally]

Dayuhan, on 28 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

It was fixed several updates ago.

Up until I became fed-up with ECM, my favourite mech to run was a Jenner JR7-D with 2x S-SRM-2's. I can personally attest that they mostly hit. Mostly. At a rough guesstimate, I'd say about 1 in 10 would veer off from the S-SRM grouping for no apparent reason. This is at slow moving or stationary targets. Anything moving at high speed would occasionally befuddle them much worse -- sometimes they'd spin in circles around other speedy mechs.

This was only a couple weeks ago.

I'm not going to go trolling the patch logs. I don't need to. I have up-to-date, first hand experience that tells me that S-SRM is not a 100% guaranteed hit. 90% is closer to the mark. Even less if the target is speedy.

Edited by ltwally, 28 December 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Kamatayan]

Next thing you know PGI will implement in-game respawn. They might turn this into a semi-hawken clone, I'm pretty sure some marketing cockroach has already suggested that.

Stay pure PGI!

[Vallyn]

Major complaint with the change to R&R is that its allowed everyone and their lancemates to field Assaults. Before the R&R kept high cost mech's in check. . now there is no reason not to feild an assault (or light for lag shield, pick one). Dropping a lot more often in groups that are 4-6 Assault mechs these days.

[Koniving]

Everyone is aware that further down the line repair and rearm will be coming back, closer to when community warfare comes out. They had their test data from it, found flaws and cash mining and exploits.

Now they're working out the kinks. We'll see it again, just like collisions.