84 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

Tag is almost useless.

It maybe viable for pre-mades but in most games when I run my d-dc sand someone tags me I just giggle and duck behind cover or shut down. Or if i am in a very cross mood I charge them and do a twisting dodge at the last minute and the majority of missiles miss.

[OpCentar]

I wrote about removing the TAG energy weapon hardpoint requirement about two weeks ago in the suggestion forum.


The main problem not being the toggle, it's plain to everyone that you can macro it easy, but the removal of one offensive energy weapon system in order to mount TAG. That's really a lot for some variants, like the Catapult C4 which has a maximum of only two energy weapons.

Make it a module or a special equipment piece like the BAP, so that it weighs something and takes up critical space but do not force players to sacrifice one energy weapon, for something that is way more difficult to use than ECM.

And it counters ECM in very specific situations anyway so it wouldn't break it.

[Windsaw]

I have a toggle on my TAG.

It's called "stone" and rests on my F4-Key to where I mapped weapon group 4.

[Remarius]

Nightcrept, on 20 December 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Tag is almost useless.

It maybe viable for pre-mades but in most games when I run my d-dc sand someone tags me I just giggle and duck behind cover or shut down. Or if i am in a very cross mood I charge them and do a twisting dodge at the last minute and the majority of missiles miss.

Good luck with that against my EW/MPL based Cicada's..... I LOVE shut down mechs or mechs taking themselves out of the fight doing that.

Too much entitlement and laziness in this thread tbh. If people stopped wanting to be able to solo everything in game in an assault mech and play as part of a team things might improve.

The problem with Tag isn't a problem with the module as I use it a lot on my Cicada's.. its a problem with the lack of LRM's in use and people not paying attention to team talk/looking for the tagged mechs. Yesterday I spent much of the evening with one friend in a lrm cat and my cicada. Every time we had anyone else with lrm's on the team who paid attention we won unless they got through to the LRM boats and no one was around to intercept them. The only exception was a 7-K that soaked up significant parts of the fire while ducking and diving into cover constantly. People presume theres no need for AMS now due to their ECM carriers and if you have someone fast and willing to counter/tag its fatal.

Carry on whining about ECM/not using AMS... and I'll carry on helping my LRM carriers hammer you. Good deal I say.

[Ransack]

OpCentar, on 20 December 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

I wrote about removing the TAG energy weapon hardpoint requirement about two weeks ago in the suggestion forum.


The main problem not being the toggle, it's plain to everyone that you can macro it easy, but the removal of one offensive energy weapon system in order to mount TAG. That's really a lot for some variants, like the Catapult C4 which has a maximum of only two energy weapons.

How about the A-1. It has 0 energy hard points so cannot mount a tag at all. It's a pure missile boat, and mine is rusting.

[Noth]

Remarius, on 20 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Good luck with that against my EW/MPL based Cicada's..... I LOVE shut down mechs or mechs taking themselves out of the fight doing that.

Too much entitlement and laziness in this thread tbh. If people stopped wanting to be able to solo everything in game in an assault mech and play as part of a team things might improve.

The problem with Tag isn't a problem with the module as I use it a lot on my Cicada's.. its a problem with the lack of LRM's in use and people not paying attention to team talk/looking for the tagged mechs. Yesterday I spent much of the evening with one friend in a lrm cat and my cicada. Every time we had anyone else with lrm's on the team who paid attention we won unless they got through to the LRM boats and no one was around to intercept them. The only exception was a 7-K that soaked up significant parts of the fire while ducking and diving into cover constantly. People presume theres no need for AMS now due to their ECM carriers and if you have someone fast and willing to counter/tag its fatal.

Carry on whining about ECM/not using AMS... and I'll carry on helping my LRM carriers hammer you. Good deal I say.

So you approve of ECM consisting of both ECM and a nullsig system? The null sig system is supposed to be completely lost at this point. Instead we get a null sig system in the ECM that blankets other team mates for absolutely none of the disadvantages of the null sig. Heck the closest thing that shows up to the Null sig is the stealth armor and requires the ecm but also takes up 14 crit slots and produces extra heat. Right now there is no reason for either of those systems to exist.

[AlexWildeagle]

p00k, on 18 December 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

honestly i think they went the wrong way with this one. while it does make ecm a bit less dominant, it still encourages teams to stack as many ecm as possible (perhaps even more so), rather than just take however many are needed to shield their team.

I have to assume you guys are talking about premades. Cause pugging my team is without ECM more then it has someone with it. Even when someone has it, it's a pug group which means the ECMer is no where to be found *G*

[Nightcrept]

Remarius, on 20 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Good luck with that against my EW/MPL based Cicada's..... I LOVE shut down mechs or mechs taking themselves out of the fight doing that.
Too much entitlement and laziness in this thread tbh. If people stopped wanting to be able to solo everything in game in an assault mech and play as part of a team things might improve.
The problem with Tag isn't a problem with the module as I use it a lot on my Cicada's.. its a problem with the lack of LRM's in use and people not paying attention to team talk/looking for the tagged mechs. Yesterday I spent much of the evening with one friend in a lrm cat and my cicada. Every time we had anyone else with lrm's on the team who paid attention we won unless they got through to the LRM boats and no one was around to intercept them. The only exception was a 7-K that soaked up significant parts of the fire while ducking and diving into cover constantly. People presume theres no need for AMS now due to their ECM carriers and if you have someone fast and willing to counter/tag its fatal.
Carry on whining about ECM/not using AMS... and I'll carry on helping my LRM carriers hammer you. Good deal I say.

If we wanting to play in a team we would join a pre-made...lol.As is your cicada with a tag is not going to be problem for me. I still use cover and it is still easy to dodge. And if you get close enough to tag me while i'm working in towards your lrms then I'm going to make you a smear..lol.I don;t find cicadas hard to kill. Tag only works against new and or bad players. If nothing else the easiest thing is to let the mech tagging tag you until the last second and then when you dodge and the tag fires off to the distance the missiles do a last second adjustment and you get missed by the majority. Unless you can catch me in a furball your useless.

[OpCentar]

Ransack, on 20 December 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

How about the A-1. It has 0 energy hard points so cannot mount a tag at all. It's a pure missile boat, and mine is rusting.

Yeah the A1 is special as people still loathe the memories of its StreakCat days.

My suggestion for balancing SSRMs and TAG was that it didn't provide tracking bonuses, because streaks already have a theoretical 100% hit ratio, but enabling only the "dumbfire" part.

So TAG would only enable SSRMs to be fired in a straight line when being disrupted by an enemy ECM field.

[smokefield]

Mack1, on 20 December 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

ECM is ruining this game, simple as that. The only people happy with it are 8 man drops as it's an iwin button for them.

How can pressing a button be allowed to cripple every lock on weapon on the entire battlefield? Even a complete ******** moron could see that this was going to be a gamebreaker. And ever since it showed it's ugly face we have seen a massive change in tactics.

People once used Artillery (LRM boats) to guard bases and flanks, the enemy had to snipe them out or sneak lights around to kill them. The other team were doing a similar thing, the battles lasted 10 - 15 mins and were pure strategy.

Now they just press the iwin button, huddle up and begin the slow march to the enemy base. The other team do the same if they have ECM (if they don't have ECM they may as well power down and sing folk songs) Both teams heading for their enemys bases, sometimes they meet and it's a game of Hawken sometimes they don't meet and it's a win without even firing a shot.

ECM made this game very easy for everyone except Artillery which does not even turn up to fight now. The devs tried to fix the base rushing by changing the economy, this just made people more angry than they were before.

I like many other MWO players can see the writing on the wall for this game and it's still in beta, what a mess. They guys I played with last night had not even logged on for 5 days, my playing time is also well down on what it was, it's just so boring now for a PUG player, half the weapons are not even usable.

mak has a point. until now i just played pub games and 95% of them were decided by ECM number. which it is a game breaking - when you have one thing that can decide the result of a match in almost all cases then somethng is not right there.

we have BAP - which should increase sensor range and decrease lock time. Why not make BAP counter ECM on short range..lets say 300m - at least in detection...?

[Vassago Rain]

Mack1, on 20 December 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

ECM is ruining this game, simple as that. The only people happy with it are 8 man drops as it's an iwin button for them.

How can pressing a button be allowed to cripple every lock on weapon on the entire battlefield? Even a complete ******** moron could see that this was going to be a gamebreaker. And ever since it showed it's ugly face we have seen a massive change in tactics.

People once used Artillery (LRM boats) to guard bases and flanks, the enemy had to snipe them out or sneak lights around to kill them. The other team were doing a similar thing, the battles lasted 10 - 15 mins and were pure strategy.

Now they just press the iwin button, huddle up and begin the slow march to the enemy base. The other team do the same if they have ECM (if they don't have ECM they may as well power down and sing folk songs) Both teams heading for their enemys bases, sometimes they meet and it's a game of Hawken sometimes they don't meet and it's a win without even firing a shot.

ECM made this game very easy for everyone except Artillery which does not even turn up to fight now. The devs tried to fix the base rushing by changing the economy, this just made people more angry than they were before.

I like many other MWO players can see the writing on the wall for this game and it's still in beta, what a mess. They guys I played with last night had not even logged on for 5 days, my playing time is also well down on what it was, it's just so boring now for a PUG player, half the weapons are not even usable.

You're deluded.
I just played like 30 8 manz games. Everybody who wants LRMs have TAGs coming out of their *****. It's extremely effective for nuking the 'OP' ECM to the stone age, just like the ECM is extremely effective at ruining their plans, by making it so they must get closer to formulate one.

The system, as laid out by PGI, actually works.

In fact, I got nuked to death in 20 seconds flat by TAG'ging LRMs, then the fight became a close-fought city battle. It was fun. The game is fun like this. They're improving things.
If you don't like LRMs and streaks, take ECM, or huddle near your ECM. If you want to take LRMs and streaks, take TAGs, or huddle near the people who have them.

[Noth]

smokefield, on 20 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

mak has a point. until now i just played pub games and 95% of them were decided by ECM number. which it is a game breaking - when you have one thing that can decide the result of a match in almost all cases then somethng is not right there.

we have BAP - which should increase sensor range and decrease lock time. Why not make BAP counter ECM on short range..lets say 300m - at least in detection...?

THey need to just make ECM proper ECM not a blanket Null signature system with no downsides. ECM was a high tech system designed to counter the effects of other high tech system, not render the those in the bubble undetectable nor prevent locks of any kind. It was there to counter the likes of NARC, Artemis, TAG, BAP, C3. ECM was the counter to those, they were not the counter to the ECM. Even the more advanced Angel ECM didn't prevent locks and sensor detection (ok it did prevent SSRM lock but that had more to do with the fact that the SSRM range was within it's bubble of influence).

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

You're deluded.
I just played like 30 8 manz games. Everybody who wants LRMs have TAGs coming out of their *****. It's extremely effective for nuking the 'OP' ECM to the stone age, just like the ECM is extremely effective at ruining their plans, by making it so they must get closer to formulate one.

The system, as laid out by PGI, actually works.

In fact, I got nuked to death in 20 seconds flat by TAG'ging LRMs, then the fight became a close-fought city battle. It was fun. The game is fun like this. They're improving things.
If you don't like LRMs and streaks, take ECM, or huddle near your ECM. If you want to take LRMs and streaks, take TAGs, or huddle near the people who have them.

Vassago, you are ok with ECM being both ECM and a null signature system without any of the downsides that come with a null signature system, thus making such an advanced system pointless?

[smokefield]

yes rain but that requires a team...in a pub generally wont work.

Quote

THey need to just make ECM proper ECM not a blanket Null signature system with no downsides. ECM was a high tech system designed to counter the effects of other high tech system, not render the those in the bubble undetectable nor prevent locks of any kind. It was there to counter the likes of NARC, Artemis, TAG, BAP, C3. ECM was the counter to those, they were not the counter to the ECM. Even the more advanced Angel ECM didn't prevent locks and sensor detection (ok it did prevent SSRM lock but that had more to do with the fact that the SSRM range was within it's bubble of influence).

you're right. that's why is called counter measures.

Edited by smokefield, 20 December 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

THey need to just make ECM proper ECM not a blanket Null signature system with no downsides. ECM was a high tech system designed to counter the effects of other high tech system, not render the those in the bubble undetectable nor prevent locks of any kind. It was there to counter the likes of NARC, Artemis, TAG, BAP, C3. ECM was the counter to those, they were not the counter to the ECM. Even the more advanced Angel ECM didn't prevent locks and sensor detection (ok it did prevent SSRM lock but that had more to do with the fact that the SSRM range was within it's bubble of influence).



Vassago, you are ok with ECM being both ECM and a null signature system without any of the downsides that come with a null signature system, thus making such an advanced system pointless?

I am okay with that, because it makes the game better, and opens up new things, like how I can make my team actually hide in a city, instead of us getting spotted magically from 1000 meters away, and forcing brawls. I'm also okay with TAGs nuking my atlas to death in 20 seconds or less.

We'd never get the more advanced stuff like angel ECM, null, and so on, anyway, so who really cares that they rolled them all into one? Oh, and while we're on the subject, AC5 should have a minimum range, and medium lasers run too hot. By the way, LRMs are supposed to fire in such a way that you can place them indirectly anywhere you want, like mortar fire.

But you have to change certain things to make your FPS game fun and stimulating.

smokefield, on 20 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

yes rain but that requires a team...in a pub generally wont work.

I don't have a problem making either TAG or ECM work in pubs. Really, I don't. ECM is a passive ability you give to people around you, TAG is generally useful right now, because you can TAG for yourself, and all the stalkers and centurions out there.

[Noth]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

I am okay with that, because it makes the game better, and opens up new things, like how I can make my team actually hide in a city, instead of us getting spotted magically from 1000 meters away, and forcing brawls. I'm also okay with TAGs nuking my atlas to death in 20 seconds or less.

We'd never get the more advanced stuff like angel ECM, null, and so on, anyway, so who really cares that they rolled them all into one? Oh, and while we're on the subject, AC5 should have a minimum range, and medium lasers run too hot. By the way, LRMs are supposed to fire in such a way that you can place them indirectly anywhere you want, like mortar fire.

But you have to change certain things to make your FPS game fun and stimulating.

We don't know if they will keep the 1:1 one. Also if you could force brawls without ECM you did something wrong. It makes it too easy to force brawls now. It has severely hampered LRMs which were in a near perfect spot. If it is going to keep the nullsignature system built it then it should have it's downsides (actually preferrably the downsides of the stealth armor since null sig won't be around for much much longer) of many many more crits taken up and continuously producing heat while running. It should actully get more of a down side since it is an area of effect null signature.

There is a reason that stuf that essentially makes you stealth is supposed to have a downside.

Edited by Noth, 20 December 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Ransack]

My biggest problem is that for ECM to work, you simply just slot it. It requires absolutley nothing. You never have to hit the J key to counter if you don't want to, just stay in disrupt. but to counter it on a non emc capable mech you have to give up a weapon, and hold a direct fire weapon to use an indirect fire weapon. That's bonkers.

Last night on my Stalker, we were being rushed and it was a target rich environment. I found that against ECM equipped mechs I could fire my lasers, use tag, and fire my LRMs. But when I tried to fire my streaks, I couldn't get a lock because tag does not give you a lock, it gives you a target. The daggon ecm was still interfering with the ability to fire streaks, even though I was using it's "counter", the Tag.

ECM is frustrating as hell

[Vassago Rain]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

We don't know if they will keep the 1:1 one. Also if you could force brawls without ECM you did something wrong. It makes it too easy to force brawls now. It has severely hampered LRMs which were in a near perfect spot. If it is going to keep the nullsignature system built it then it should have it's downsides (actually preferrably the downsides of the stealth armor since null sig won't be around for much much longer) of many many more crits taken up and continuously producing heat while running. It should actully get more of a down side since it is an area of effect null signature.

There is a reason that stuf that essentially makes you stealth is supposed to have a downside.

It hasn't done anything to LRMs, and having a tool I can use to force people to get close, or sit at range without knowing what we really have, is good for the game.

Many things should have a downside. Adding TT downsides to an FPS isn't clever, however, and would cripple the game further. Like gauss minimum range, for instance.

[SpiralRazor]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

ECM is fine like this.

TAG needs to be a toggle. Most people who use it have a macro to do this for them already.

If ECM is "fine", why is the 8 man que almost devoid of any group not running 5-8 ecm mechs?

Okay bro...sure...we will listen to people that say its "fine" rather then what we see with our own eyes every night.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Korm, on 20 December 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Sadly people are still using lrms as press one button to win. I really hope they will get hurt by ECM.

thanks for proving my sig right yet again

[Inappropriate1191]

ECM is fine where it is after the patch. I get to use LRMs now, even without TAG, but just simply have to use them more strategically and have to work with scouts. It's not as bad as it was a few weeks ago, where everyone had to brawl, and no one used streaks or LRM. Now, if only they'd fix the gauss rifle's explosion chance, and make it to where both the gauss and the AC/20 wasn't so damn fragile. Swear to God, both guns feel like as though they die the minute the enemy looks at them, and I haven't even had my armor melted off, yet.