84 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SpiralRazor, on 20 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

If ECM is "fine", why is the 8 man que almost devoid of any group not running 5-8 ecm mechs?

Okay bro...sure...we will listen to people that say its "fine" rather then what we see with our own eyes every night.

Listen to vassago. He would rather let he game die. Maybe we'll get a better one down the road is his thinking Im guessing

[SpiralRazor]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I am okay with that, because it makes the game better, and opens up new things, like how I can make my team actually hide in a city, instead of us getting spotted magically from 1000 meters away, and forcing brawls. I'm also okay with TAGs nuking my atlas to death in 20 seconds or less.

We'd never get the more advanced stuff like angel ECM, null, and so on, anyway, so who really cares that they rolled them all into one? Oh, and while we're on the subject, AC5 should have a minimum range, and medium lasers run too hot. By the way, LRMs are supposed to fire in such a way that you can place them indirectly anywhere you want, like mortar fire.

But you have to change certain things to make your FPS game fun and stimulating.



I don't have a problem making either TAG or ECM work in pubs. Really, I don't. ECM is a passive ability you give to people around you, TAG is generally useful right now, because you can TAG for yourself, and all the stalkers and centurions out there.

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I am okay with that, because it makes the game better, and opens up new things, like how I can make my team actually hide in a city, instead of us getting spotted magically from 1000 meters away, and forcing brawls. I'm also okay with TAGs nuking my atlas to death in 20 seconds or less.

We'd never get the more advanced stuff like angel ECM, null, and so on, anyway, so who really cares that they rolled them all into one? Oh, and while we're on the subject, AC5 should have a minimum range, and medium lasers run too hot. By the way, LRMs are supposed to fire in such a way that you can place them indirectly anywhere you want, like mortar fire.

But you have to change certain things to make your FPS game fun and stimulating.



I don't have a problem making either TAG or ECM work in pubs. Really, I don't. ECM is a passive ability you give to people around you, TAG is generally useful right now, because you can TAG for yourself, and all the stalkers and centurions out there.

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I am okay with that, because it makes the game better, and opens up new things, like how I can make my team actually hide in a city, instead of us getting spotted magically from 1000 meters away, and forcing brawls. I'm also okay with TAGs nuking my atlas to death in 20 seconds or less.

We'd never get the more advanced stuff like angel ECM, null, and so on, anyway, so who really cares that they rolled them all into one? Oh, and while we're on the subject, AC5 should have a minimum range, and medium lasers run too hot. By the way, LRMs are supposed to fire in such a way that you can place them indirectly anywhere you want, like mortar fire.

But you have to change certain things to make your FPS game fun and stimulating.



I don't have a problem making either TAG or ECM work in pubs. Really, I don't. ECM is a passive ability you give to people around you, TAG is generally useful right now, because you can TAG for yourself, and all the stalkers and centurions out there.

there is no rational argument effective on people who are using an emotional basis.

[GH0ST1E]

Mack1, on 20 December 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

People once used Artillery (LRM boats) to guard bases and flanks, the enemy had to snipe them out or sneak lights around to kill them. The other team were doing a similar thing, the battles lasted 10 - 15 mins and were pure strategy.

You obviously never piloted the light mechs that would have hundreds of LRM's raining down on them, with no way to stop it. Now I'll admit ECM are powerful, maybe too much so, but it makes light mechs viable without a siginigicant lag shield.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Katala Pryde, on 20 December 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

You obviously never piloted the light mechs that would have hundreds of LRM's raining down on them, with no way to stop it. Now I'll admit ECM are powerful, maybe too much so, but it makes light mechs viable without a siginigicant lag shield.

Yes, no way to learn how to counter them in game when you can come here to qq and get the devs to break what you cant figure out how to counter.

Just because YOU didnt know how didnt mean it didnt exist in game (AMS, grouping with AMS, cover, lagshield, outrunning the missiles in general, etc etc etc)

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 20 December 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

SpiralRazor, on 20 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

If ECM is "fine", why is the 8 man que almost devoid of any group not running 5-8 ecm mechs?

Okay bro...sure...we will listen to people that say its "fine" rather then what we see with our own eyes every night.

SpiralRazor, on 20 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

If ECM is "fine", why is the 8 man que almost devoid of any group not running 5-8 ecm mechs?

Okay bro...sure...we will listen to people that say its "fine" rather then what we see with our own eyes every night.

The actual groups who win 8 manz, one which would be Kong itself, runs at most two ECM mechs. I know this, because I play 8 manz a lot.

I have so, so, so many screenshots, of so, so, so many raven/cicada teams, that simply get eaten by us, or win by ninjacapping. ECM isn't OP. It's a tool. TAG is the exact same.

It would be lovely if my double-D atlas was immune to everything, because it has the omg uber pwnz ECM field, and LRMs were made of rubber, but reality doesn't work like your fantasies. But I guess you can always go pubstomp with a synchdropped 8 manz.

[Khobai]

ECM is still stupidly overpowered and needs to be nerfed. It should not grant super stealth mode to all friendly mechs.

[GH0ST1E]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Yes, no way to learn how to counter them in game when you can come here to qq and get the devs to break what you cant figure out how to counter.

Just because YOU didnt know how didnt mean it didnt exist in game (AMS, grouping with AMS, cover, lagshield, outrunning the missiles in general, etc etc etc)

You forgot powering down, and running in the tunnel or under cover. The Lag shield is in essence being able to outrun missiles, as to do one, you usually have to do the other.

So, yes I do know the solutions to LRM's, but that doesn't change the fact that light mechs needed a counter to it.

Edited by Katala Pryde, 20 December 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Khobai, on 20 December 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

ECM is still stupidly overpowered and needs to be nerfed. It should not grant super stealth mode to all friendly mechs.

If they make LRMs deal 1 damage per missile, move slower, and not be as accurate, I'll agree to nerfing the one way I have of getting my close-combat robot into contact with your macross missile massacre robot, that can magically detect me from 1000 meters away, unless I have my ECM field.

[Noth]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

If they make LRMs deal 1 damage per missile, move slower, and not be as accurate, I'll agree to nerfing the one way I have of getting my close-combat robot into contact with your macross missile massacre robot, that can magically detect me from 1000 meters away, unless I have my ECM field.

I had no issue getting into close combat against LRMs before ECM. Sure if I mess up I get hit by a few LRMs, but in all maps but caustic there is enough cover to block LRMs and break lock.

[Inappropriate1191]

Man, a lotta ECM hate. I don't get it. Maybe it's because ECM HAS been nerfed with the recent patch. Like I pointed out before, I'm actually able to use LRM builds for the first time since ECM has been introduced. I'm talking 8-man drops, too. Since Vissago is accused of speaking with emotionalism and not with logic, I'll use logic and a match me and my 8-man had. Our opposition consisted of 1 cicada, 2 DDC, 2 ravens, 1 hunchback, a phract, and an atlas D. We had 4 atlases, only 1 was a DDC, 1 raven, a jenner, and a cicada. Anyways, to get to the point, we won, and I ran out of LRMs. There were multiple matches like this. Sometimes we won, sometimes we didn't, and every match, I used a good portion of LRMs, with many actually hitting. If the fact I can actually use LRMs without TAG at all, let alone use them effectively isn't proof that ECM is fine, then I don't know what is.

Also note, I use LRMs much more in PUGs and 4-man drops, but those don't actually count for our purposes of this discussion.

Edit: Friend of mine corrected me. There was no commando, only hunchback.

Edited by Inappropriate1191, 20 December 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[Noth]

Inappropriate1191, on 20 December 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Man, a lotta ECM hate. I don't get it. Maybe it's because ECM HAS been nerfed with the recent patch. Like I pointed out before, I'm actually able to use LRM builds for the first time since ECM has been introduced. I'm talking 8-man drops, too. Since Vissago is accused of speaking with emotionalism and not with logic, I'll use logic and a match me and my 8-man had. Our opposition consisted of 1 cicada, 2 DDC, 2 ravens, 1 commando, a phract, and an atlas D. We had 4 atlases, only 1 was a DDC, 1 raven, a jenner, and a cicada. Anyways, to get to the point, we won, and I ran out of LRMs. There were multiple matches like this. Sometimes we won, sometimes we didn't, and every match, I used a good portion of LRMs, with many actually hitting. If the fact I can actually use LRMs without TAG at all, let alone use them effectively isn't proof that ECM is fine, then I don't know what is.

Also note, I use LRMs much more in PUGs and 4-man drops, but those don't actually count for our purposes of this discussion.

That nerf did nothing to change how they effected LRMs. all it did was change ECCM mode to not block every single ECM that it was near. You are seeing more LRMs because there is a new mech that people are trying, that just so happens to be heavy on LRMs. ECMs will still shut down LRM use.

[Vassago Rain]

Inappropriate1191, on 20 December 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Man, a lotta ECM hate. I don't get it. Maybe it's because ECM HAS been nerfed with the recent patch. Like I pointed out before, I'm actually able to use LRM builds for the first time since ECM has been introduced. I'm talking 8-man drops, too. Since Vissago is accused of speaking with emotionalism and not with logic, I'll use logic and a match me and my 8-man had. Our opposition consisted of 1 cicada, 2 DDC, 2 ravens, 1 commando, a phract, and an atlas D. We had 4 atlases, only 1 was a DDC, 1 raven, a jenner, and a cicada. Anyways, to get to the point, we won, and I ran out of LRMs. There were multiple matches like this. Sometimes we won, sometimes we didn't, and every match, I used a good portion of LRMs, with many actually hitting. If the fact I can actually use LRMs without TAG at all, let alone use them effectively isn't proof that ECM is fine, then I don't know what is.

Also note, I use LRMs much more in PUGs and 4-man drops, but those don't actually count for our purposes of this discussion.

They're mad I make more sense on my own than three of them can manage combined, which is why the personal attacks come out.
I guess I could post all the screenshots of today's games in the 8 manz. Lots of OP ECM spam mechs, let me tell you. Oh, wait! There weren't any, except for one we had to wipe out twice.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 20 December 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[Noth]

Vassago Rain, on 20 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

They're mad I make more sense on my own than three of them can manage combined, which is why the personal attacks come out.
I guess I could post all the screenshots of today's games in the 8 manz. Lots of OP ECM spam mechs, let me tell you. Oh, wait! There weren't any, except for one we had to wipe out twice.

Play pugs You have to balance for both 8 mans and pugs. Just like LRMs once rules pugs, ECM is now ruling pugs. IF it is broken to pugs and not 8 mans, it is still broken.

[Vassago Rain]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Play pugs You have to balance for both 8 mans and pugs. Just like LRMs once rules pugs, ECM is now ruling pugs. IF it is broken to pugs and not 8 mans, it is still broken.

But...I do.
Can't you read, man?

They don't rule the pubs, and they don't rule the 8 manz. The 8 manz just want an excuse so they can feel justified in farming the pubs again.

Because they are bad players, and can't win against the few good players who are doing 8 manz.

[Apoc1138]

Noth, on 20 December 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Actually for what it does, it should take up space of the ECM+null signature system and generate heat and disallow certain higher electronics. It is after all ECM+Null signature in this implementation.

Null signature makes a mech invisible to heat sig vision... ECM doesn't do this, so no, MWO's ECM is not ECM+Null Sig

[Zyllos]

Honestly, the implementation of ECM seems ok. Just the numbers seem off.

- Make 1 Counter ECM counter all Disrupt ECM in range. I personally think making 1 Counter ECM work against all Disrupt ECM a big one because then it isn't always about fielding more ECMs, but instead using your Disrupt ECM to scout and not run into another equipped ECM mech to be countered and open for locking weaponry. This also doesn't make the Atlas D-DC team (4+ ECMs) just invincible against lock-on weapons because your team didn't decide to take 5+ other ECM mechs. This is really a way to give a reason for a team to take mechs other than ECM but to take at least 1 ECM mech for disruption.

- Make ECM reduce sensor range by 50%, not 75%. ECM is ment for scouting, not keeping certain mechs locked out of firing. Even at 400m sensor range, LRM users will only have 220m worth of workable distance to lock on with missiles while SSRMs will only have 90m.

- Let the BAP display some indication that an ECM equipped mech is within normal sensor range (according to Sarna saying BAP is jammed by ECM but indication is notified). Maybe give BAP users "pings" (kinda like how Thermal Mode shows the ping sweep, which seems like to me PGI is already testing out) so they can spot where ECM mechs are physically at. Once teams start to only take 1 or 2 ECMs, having BAP which gives pings to physical locations could be used to detect where ECM mechs are located at so you could chase the ECM mechs and destroy them with direct fire weapons. Then you might see teams start to take no ECM and work together with BAP users to counter ECM.

- Any mech equipped with ECM, running in Disrupt mode, should not be able to lockon with LRMs/SSRMs. This provides a pro/con for having equipped ECM.

- As many have said, fix the issues with hit detection. This will really help out in the department of having light mechs survive a disproportional amount of fire according to their weight. But this is obvious, just extremely important and I am sure PGI is working on.

[Lupus Aurelius]

The best possible solution is something that reflects TT better. Break ECM up into seperate systems, each that have fitting requirements and downsides to their use other than just 2 crits and 1.5 tons.

For what it does, no one has been able to demonstrate what drawback MWO ECM has. 1.5 tons, 2 crits that can be located anywhere, generates no heat and activated 24/7, and also can counter 1 other ECM. And combines 3 ECM suites, Guardian, Angel, and Null Signature.

The only counter is another ECM, so obviously, what is going to happen, especially in organized drops? He who has the most ECM will be able to either negate a counter, or overwhelm a disrupt. The unalterable law of online gaming and MMOs is this - the extreme is the norm. This is why new content should be introduced already pre-nerfed. People should have to then make a case for why a buff is required, and if they have the data, the facts, and a rational, logical argument as to why it should be buffed, then they can make a case for it. Anything that gives an advantage will always be exploited to it's max effect.


P.S. - One of our company member has a theory, that PGI could not figure an easy way to balance Streaks, so instead they implemented ECM in it's current incarnation. LRM's had basically been balanced before ECM, but there was still a significant outcry about streakcats, specifically by the lag shielded lights crowd. This effectively killed the streakcat, but still allows for an ECM carrying lights to still utilize streaks, or for that mattter, the D-DC Atlas, for use against light harassers. This also would explain the lack of explanation concerning PGI's stance on ECMs, since they would have to admit that they were unable to come up with a balancing mechanism that would still allow streaks to be useful across the board

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 20 December 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[Noth]

Apoc1138, on 20 December 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Null signature makes a mech invisible to heat sig vision... ECM doesn't do this, so no, MWO's ECM is not ECM+Null Sig

In lore the Null signature system does this:

Quote

[color=#000000]the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the [/color]'Mech[color=#000000] is more difficult to track at anything other than short range,[/color]

It effectively does what ECM is doing right now, making it hard to track at anything but short range.

[Snuglninja]

First of all tag is a joke.Ecm the way it is in thi s game is a slap in the face to old school battletech players. It's like having a star trek game with light sabers. It's not canon in its current form. Also hurts new players, pugs, and trail mechs. If Ssrm is the problem what not fix them.
But we can have it both ways. First make ecm conform to tt rules, disabling other systems like Artemis, bap, and inside 180 a mech can't be used as a spotter. Make target locks take little longer.
Make Ssrm when fired hits over the whole body not just torso and arms. Also make Ssrm require lock after each shot.
Now as far as null Sig fix that by allowing all mechs to go passive radar making radar locks and detection for both 200m. Now you can go passive scout around but you will not detect others and will not be detected until 200m

[Vassago Rain]

Snuglninja, on 20 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

First of all tag is a joke.Ecm the way it is in thi s game is a slap in the face to old school battletech players. It's like having a star trek game with light sabers. It's not canon in its current form. Also hurts new players, pugs, and trail mechs. If Ssrm is the problem what not fix them.
But we can have it both ways. First make ecm conform to tt rules, disabling other systems like Artemis, bap, and inside 180 a mech can't be used as a spotter. Make target locks take little longer.
Make Ssrm when fired hits over the whole body not just torso and arms. Also make Ssrm require lock after each shot.
Now as far as null Sig fix that by allowing all mechs to go passive radar making radar locks and detection for both 200m. Now you can go passive scout around but you will not detect others and will not be detected until 200m

That's good.
Now explain to me why my atlas keeps dying to TAG and LRMs in 20 seconds, even as I'm covered in my invincibility shroud.

Could it be because both systems are working as intended?

If you're so in love with real man's battletech and dice, why are you even in this game? Why don't you crusade for a return to minimum range on ACs?